ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[Elandal]

I've been wondering about the "dead end tech" thing people are talking about..
Of course, early on what you get with Archery is archers. But later on, longbows require them (then again, that might not hold much appeal either), as do crossbows (best anti-melee unit there is - just not a city raider).
And HBR is required for knights and cavalry - both of which are good units (although I do admit that I'm more of an infantry man myself, going for grens and/or rifles, rarely using cavalry).
Obviously by the time you want crossbows or knights, those techs are relatively cheap.

So the question is, is NC worth the beakers? That's something I'm interesting in seeing here - skipping them would mean treating Carthage as having no UU. One out of six features nullified, five to go (2 starting techs, 2 leader traits, UU, UB).

If this were anything else but ALC, skipping NC due to high beaker cost to get them online would be an easy decision. But when the goal is to utilize the civilization and leader traits, can you skip them? My answer here would be that no, skipping NC in ALC featuring Hannibal is not really a good choice. Rather we must come out with ways to utilize the UU to the highest efficiency possible. Post-game analysis may then be used to decide whether NC was useful or not.

 

[aelf]

I think you got the warmonger's continent. Chances are the other one will be peaceful. Well, it's not exactly a hopeless situation for a relatively peaceful game. Kublai Khan can be made an ally and friend, just like Napoleon. It's possible to do that with Shaka too, although IMO he's less trustworthy. As for Tokugawa, well, if you can really build on the religious buddy relationship, he might be okay. But eventually you might want to switch to Free Religion anyway (after which he can only be a threat), so I think he should be your target. Of course, much would depend on who's the nearest as well. Remember, the key is to get them to fight each other and not you.

I think you should try to use the UU, but don't be in too much of a hurry. You have time before getting to HBR. If the horse city site is not in danger of being snagged by somebody else, don't rush to settle a city there. Grab one or two better locations first.

 

[Gwil]

Hi Sisiutil, just a heads up to say how much I enjoy and learn from your threads in this (crazy) challenge of yours I've learnt a lot of useful strategies from your postings so far.

The dotmap drago posted - i'm not great at Civ IV, certainly not Monarch - but with a spread of cities across the continent like so, would it not make defence of the realm incredibly difficult if you were to enter an early war or be attacked yourself? It might be the wrong logic but I always plan to have my early lands with at the most a few turns reach of one another, should anyone jump in and start waving swords..

 

[Elandal]

I do agree with aelf on that NCs aren't the first things you need to go for. With Persia and Egypt, horses are the #1 priority as their UU is the Chariot - first mounted unit you can get. NCs have a useful lifespan beyond being axe-counters, so getting HBR and Archery is not that much of a priority.
Horses, OTOH, are very nice for chariots - the BarbWatch unit par excellence. So even if teching to NCs can be delayed, I don't think horses as resource can be delayed much. Past copper, yes. But beyond that, only if there's a great site to be claimed and horses look safe to settle "in a while". If however you're going for 3-4 cities before first war, then horse city will be #3 or #4 IMHO.

On leaders, I trust aelf's analysis. While I wouldn't trust Nappy in the same room with my silverware, apparently (ref. current EMC) he can be handled.

 

[carl corey]

Carl Corey: you're a real stinker, ain't ya?

Doing my best, sir, doing my best.

 

[Pe Ell]

Gee, I do not like that map. No obvious spot for a second city from what I can see. I kinda like settling along the river 1E of banana, but that could be left for a third or fourth city when you can clear out all that jungle and spam down cottages.

As for a second city I guess it's either horses or bronze. And as much as I'd like to see NC in action I think there's too many drawbacks towards using them in this game: they require to much deadend teching, Shaka have a natural UU counter, the city is too far off and too food poor to be worthwhile and hmm, I think that's it.
So go for bronze first as Dracomaster dotmapped then the clam+gold and then river banana. That's how I'd do it.

 

[shyuhe]

Why does everybody want to make a mad rush for copper on this map? It doesn't look like any of the AI is particularly close by so I think going for horses first is better since you get a 2 move unit online faster (via chariots or HA). You can always grab the copper after that, assuming the AI isn't too close to you on the south.

 

[thefais]

I think you should take copper city first JUST so the AI doesn't nab it from you. Chances are it's one of the few copper resources on the map, and in my experience, the AI will go anywhere to get it.

As for relations with the 3 AIs, try to befriend Kublai Kahn. He's a pain in the ass, but not as much as the other two. Shaka could be used to take out/weaken Tokugawa, since he can be bribed into war SO easily.

 

[NaZdReG]

because the carthage UU will be effectively nullified if shaka gets that copper. if he is nearby its too damn important.. must be grabbed or cut off culturally before the ai gets there.

then settling north to get the horses cuts off the gold/crabs from the ai as well, leading to an easy 4th city site.

not to mention that the horse city will have 4H from the pasture, and enough extra food to work 2 grass hill mines.

sisuitil, why have you not explored the northern black area out?? surely theres atleast a shot of finding more huts if the AI hasnt gone up that way?

NaZ

 

[curtadams]

I think you should grab the horse city first. Yes, it's inferior long-term but long-term you want both cities and the horse city is useful immediately as its two best resources are immediately available. Longterm the copper city is best 1S of the sugar - but that mean it doesn't get copper until the first border pop. The horse city will start much faster because you grow from the rice and build from the horses, starting immediately.

The gold city doesn't excite me too much as it has poor long-term prospect and if founded in the proposed location mediocre short-term prospects as well. If you get Buddhism you might skip it and found a city inland to grab territory and resources there. Without Buddhism I guess you have to take it as it's the only happiness boost you're likely to get prior to Calendar.

 

[JoeBlade]

Why does everybody want to make a mad rush for copper on this map? It doesn't look like any of the AI is particularly close by so I think going for horses first is better since you get a 2 move unit online faster (via chariots or HA). You can always grab the copper after that, assuming the AI isn't too close to you on the south.

Hmm, I actually think that the copper site is the more likely of the two to be taken early by the AI, hence all the more reason to go for it first. Keep in mind that there's a large slab of covered land south and west, very close to that copper. For all we know another civ may be lurking in there.

I suspect the horses will be the one that other civs would pass up on at first, precisely because it's a very poor site. I've repeatedly seen AIs settle on the other side of a continent for copper or iron, but rarely so for horses.

Moreover, copper unlocks Shaka's UU. He's a notorious warmonger and backstabber, and his UU is the perfect early counter to the NC. If grabbing copper means potentially denying that advantage I'd say it'd be worth temporarily forsaking the horses.

My only concern is KK's UU being horse-based as well, hence he might be very interested in that spot too should no other horses be available, although it's not exactly close to his capital either.
It's a gamble whichever way you look at it, I reckon. Impi vs. NC compared to Spearman vs. Keshik, as well as the quality of both sites tips the balance in favour of the copper IMO.

 

[ratrangerm]

Something to keep in mind... While I agree that Horseback Riding isn't that great of a tech early in the game, it becomes a desirable tech later on... you need it in order to build Knights and Cavlary, which are both useful, particularly if you get a jump on nearby AI civs in tech (I find them very useful for taking down small groups of enemy units within your own territory, for pillaging and the occassional city raid if properly promoted).

The question is, if he doesn't research HR, will he be able to trade for it? Because he's likely to need every military advantage he can get, and I wonder if any of the other warmongerers are going to be willing to trade military tech so easily.

 

[xen01]

I favor the copper city as the second city. First because of resource denial for the civ and second the northern horse city site is more likely not a priority for the other civs. Second I favor going for Writing before HBR with the purpose of slaving to get library, then being in a position to finish HBR faster. At this point 3rd city (Horse,Incense, and Farm) is most favorable.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 2: 2880 BC to 1200 BC

It's always interesting to see how the recommendations I'm given play out. As you'll see, a lot of you had extremely good instincts, I think, regarding this map, the resources, and the AI. So give yourselves a collective pat on the back.

I started the round committed to nabbing the copper city site with my Settler. First off, that meant I needed to change research to Mysticism so I could build a monument. I also heeded the advice to whip a Warrior to escort the Settler to the copper site:

The whipping sacrificed a citizen from one of the farmed sugar tiles, which raised the research time on Mysticism from 6 to 7 turns. It would take the Warrior exactly 6 turns to reach the copper site 1S of the sugar, so I removed the citizen from the corn and had him work the abandoned sugar site instead, for the 1 commerce--which put Mysticism back to 6 turns. It also added a turn to the Worker build, but I since there was some hammer overflow going towards the Worker from the whip, I figured that evened out. Besides, what the heck can I build in 1 turn in a new city at this stage of the game?

A few turns later, the research was finished...

I then changed over to the track suggested by Jet:

No, normally I wouldn't go this route, which is shunned by most human players. But as Elendal pointed out, exploiting all of the leader's characteristics is the purpose of the ALCs. Numidian Cavalry require Archery, so off in that route we go.

I frankly don't have a problem with this, because I'm switching one tech trail for another. Specifically, I would normally at this point in the game be researching Polytheism and then Priesthood, and I would have researched Mysticism long before this.

Why?

My usual preference for the Stonehenge/Oracle combo. I've decided to forgo both. Of the four early cities, only two require a quick border pop--Coppertino and Golden Clam (assuming I'll put the latter 1S of the gold, as suggested, instead of 1NE of it). Stonehenge seems kind of expensive just to accomplish that, especially with the potential for an early religion to spread around.

And while I cherish the Oracle, it's liberating, in some respects, not to pursue it. As aelf said, it looks like I'm on the warmonger's continent, but one which will likely have a single religion. So it looks like I will be able to buddy up with my fellow Buddhists at first for good tech trades, and then extort them later. This means I don't have to worry about wonder-building until I go after the Great Library. Like I said, liberating, especially since marble is in an inconvenient spot.

Back to the game.

On that same turn, I founded my second city:

The first build was a Monument, of course, and I sent my lone worker down to chop that forest west of the city to hurry it.

Shortly after that, I got news of another religion being founded:

No one on my continent has converted, so I think that both Hinduism and Judaism are on the other continent. I'm hoping that bodes well--two or more religions on the other continent should lead to religious strife rather than a big love-fest.

Speaking of religion, the founder of Buddhism came by for a visit:

Well, since no other religion had been adopted by the other neighbours, and since I had no reason to aggravate Toku this early in the game, I converted. It earned me a +1 diplomatic bonus with him right away, and by the end of the round, I had a steadily-growing "brothers and sisters of the faith" bonus with him, and he became "Pleased". Which I'm hoping will mean that Toku will be willing to tech trade. Well worth the only cost, which was one turn of anarchy. And the happiness ceiling in the capital, of course, has gone up by 1.

In 1400 BC, Utica--now building a work boat for the clams--popped its borders.

Of course I had a road already built by my two Workers connecting it to the capital and to the copper, and a Worker sitting on the copper (at the cost of 1 Worker turn) ready to start the mine that turn.

And I had completed the next Settler in Carthage and sent him north to the horses:

You might have noticed that I was building an Archer in the capital. I didn't have Writing yet for a library, and that will have to wait until after the capital produces one more Settler for Golden Clam. My exploratory Warriors had spotted barb Warriors wandering around, so I decided it was prudent to build the best military unit I had available at the time, just in case. Hey, I researched Archery, I may as well take advantage of it.

Speaking of the Warriors, my Woodsman II went south through the jungle and forests towards Japan and Zululand, while my other unpromoted Warrior turned around and went northeast to explore the upper portion of the continent, including Mongolia. It's taking him a while to get there, though. Maybe I should done that the other way around...

When the Archer was one turn from completion, I whipped so the overflow would go towards an Axeman:

I did the same in Utica with the Work Boat. I haven't seen many barbs around my cities yet, but that doesn't mean they ain't comin'.

When I finished researching Writing in 1200 BC, I decided to go see the neighbours for Open Borders agreements. All agreed, including Tokugawa, who was now "Pleased" with me, his sole Buddhist buddy thus far. Going to see Shaka revealed something interesting:

Awwwww... no copper for your cute widdle Impis? Poor Shaka--no wonder you look annoyed. This is what I was talking about, where everyone's instincts about claiming copper before the AI got there were bang-on. Very shortly after Utica was founded, Shaka founded a city 4S 1E from it. I'm convinced that Zulu Settler was heading to the copper site, saw my borders, threw up its hands, and founded a city where it did. Shaka is actually looking to be very hemmed in by me and Tokugawa, so I expect him to be a problem. Toku and Kublai, on the other hand, appear to have plenty of room to expand--for now.

Anyway, 1200 BC is where I stopped, even though there's a couple of things I haven't done that we agreed to (like founding Golden Clam). But I stopped because we need to discuss what to research next (along with anything else you want to bring up).

I see three main choices for research:

• Iron Working (13 turns): this would allow us to continue expanding to our west, into the jungle. We could claim the marble, reduce barb activity, and reveal the third of the early and vital strategic resources. However, the AI usually researches IW pretty early on, so it's often preferable to trade for this tech rather than duplicate the AI's work. But if Toku or Kublai have IW, they might grab that marble first, putting the GL in jeopardy. And IW would tell us if Shaka has any, since he can build his Impis with it. Hmmm...
• Alphabet (21 turns): Enables tech trading, leads to Literature for the Great Library. 'nuff said. (I'll need Polytheism for Literature, but maybe I'll be able to trade for it.)
• Horseback Riding (18 turns): Will allow the unique unit to be built, along with stables. I researched Archery early to enable the UU, so it may make sense to continue on this path.

So, let me know what you think I should research next. I'm leaning towards Iron Working for now and hoping that a library in Carthage will soon help with the more expensive HBR and Alphabet. Other options include Polytheism (7 turns) and Masonry (4 turns).

In addition, are we still agreed on 1S of the gold for Golden Clam? 1NE of the gold means we could work the clams immediately, without a border pop, especially since there'll be a Work Boat already there.

Below is the map--first the northern portion:

And the south:

And a look at each of my three cities, so you can comment on the builds.

I may start renaming the cities. Carthage and Utica are easy enough to remember, but "Hadrumetum"? It's not as bad as those Aztec names, but still...

The saved game file is below.

 

[blueco]

The next turns will be very interesting! You have a good chance of blocking Toku from expanding further north and he will soon if you don´t expand there before him. If you decide to do so you will have to go IW as you pointed out in your post.

About the clam/gold city I would settle NE of the gold. you loose two costal and gain the grassland hill and the plain hills. this will make the city more versital.

About research: I am not found of researching Horse back ridning. I know you are looking for getting the most out of the current leader you are playing but Horse back riding is usually a tech favored by the AI and will be tradeable. I would go ahead and research Alphabet if you decide for Crab/gold and IW if you settle to the west.

 

[TheArchduke]

One vote for horsebackriding from me. Without Copper Shaka should be really easy to take on and you shouldn´t pass that oppurtunity. After that Alphabet, I seldom research IW myself as the AI likes to trade it for alphabet anyway.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

First in land area, at the bottom everywhere else...

Other things Sisiutil does just to upset my stomach

1. Splitting his workers
2. Failing to grow

OK, general comments

1) Haramalamading-dong should be working the rice, not the horses. How quickly can you train the archer? Well, you can work the horses for 8 turns (24 ) and the rice for 1 turn (1 ) and the archer is ready at the end of turn 9, or you can work the rice for eight turns (8 ) and whip at turn 9. The archer is available at the same time either way...

BUT, if the enemy is not at the gates on turn 9, you don't have to whip the archer - that's the vigorish.

2) Shaka sure does have an interesting culture curve, doesn't he? He's got 4 cities out (and at first glance they look awful), but none of them have built any culture buildings to this point. If he's got fish and clam, he is likely working both, so the commerce is there, but what the hell is he investing in?

3) It looks to me as though Pearl Earrings isn't going to be settled too soon, therefore there would have been wiser to negotiate the open borders with shaka, and use the workboat as an additional scout (there's a lot less risk of pirates in Zululand than perched at the northern edge of the known world).

4) If you are planning to assert yourself, you might want to be thinking about where the barracks and stable are going to go, or if instead you would rather have 110 worth of units in the short term.

 

[ratrangerm]

I'd opt to go with IW first so you can locate it first. I'm sure Shaka is diverting his research that way, so you better find out if he's got it. You don't want to make a sudden rush, only to get a big surprise in the form of several Impis.

Blueco's suggestion for founding your gold/clam city is good. You then may need to consider hurrying another settler to claim that marble city you are after, as it looks like Toku is going after that site. You should be OK economy wise with five cities given your Financial trait.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

HBR, straight away! If you get cracking on it now, Shaka may not be able to get enough Impis to fight you off even if he finds some metal. Even with their weaker strength(correct me if I'm wrong) Numidians have decent odds against archers, factoring in withdrawal. A raiding force of Numidians followed by a mixed-stack of Axes, Spears, and Numidians should cut him like a knife through butter(as well as finding potentially troublesome developments). It does seem as though he has horses, unless you haven't connected them yet in that diplo screenie, so having a few spearmen would be a good idea. With Toku a happy customer for the moment, that would leave only Kublai being trouble, but you pointed out they both have plenty of room to expand, so hopefully you can wait until you meet the other continent before you do away with one or both of your "cheerful" neighborhood "friends." Tech-trading being why, of course...

 

[Pe Ell]

Since you're intent on using the NC I would recomend to get hold of HBR as quickly as possible to make the most use of it. That means either research it right away or gamble with alphabet and pray the AI's have it. I'm unsure what the odds are of that. I would research it just to be safe. After that it's cranking out units and run over Shaka before he can go after you. War!