ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[carl corey]

I say Agriculture first, then if you find some AH resources go with it, if not, BW. Depends on what your second city will be: coastal or inland. You don't have too many forests to chop in the capital, but you never know what you'll have in the other one.

 

[KMadCandy]

the only reason i would sat settle on the coast is because your second city is probably going to grab horses. i find that i almost never have horses in my fat cross when i settle in place.

yes you said almost never, not completely never, but as a counterpoint...last night i just finished razing Brennus's capital and resettling it since it was right on top of horses. made me mad at him for doing that, pasteurized they're better! then of course i realized he didn't have animal husbandry at the time to see them, and that i was up far too late one-more-turning.

 

[Elandal]

On research..

With Financial leader and highly cottable capitol, Pottery is fairly high on the list. Agri is needed for the corn, and rather sooner than later. Corn will allow Carthage to grow like weed. And with Agri you can go for AH, to reveal horses - needed for the UU.
But then again, even with very few forests to chop, the whip would be handy. And axes need copper too, so BW can't be forgotten either.

Maybe Agri -> BW -> Wheel -> Pottery -> AH, so you can get corn farmed ASAP, the worker can mine some hill before but gets onto cottaging soon enough. AH is delayed a bit this way, but cottaging early and often leads to more coin and thus more research.
This can of course change by what is revealed after settling. If you see elephants, then insert hunting somewhere - maybe between BW and Wheel.

As I can't time things at all (and have had my first worker snoozing quite a bit because of miscalculations), take the suggestion with a grain of salt and calculate the turns needed yourself

As the "settle in place" BFC is quite green, you won't really be food-limited here. Corn alone (even without irrigation - that will wait until CS and depends on if suitable path is available) is F+3, two sugar plantations (one for yourself, one for trading maybe) another +4, and cottaged sugar (boy will that be a sweet town in the future) yet another +1. You can work all the cottages and still hire loads of scientists.

 

[thefais]

Start with Agri (pumping out a worker), then go BW, then wheel->pottery to get your CE online quick. You've got 4 hills in the current FC, so your worker will have plenty to do by the time pottery comes online. Then AH, and have a lookout for horsies.

I don't think you'll ever get to irrigate the corn, unfortunately... you'll need to farm TWO of the sugar tiles (and I don't believe plantations spread irrigation). So keep that in mind.

 

[Elandal]

I think the tile SE of the corn isn't a hill, so was thinking maybe irrigation path from the south would eventually be possible.

 

[Killroyan]

Woohoo, new ALC. Although I am going cold turky with Civ for a little while this keeps me entertained. As I don't have warlords this is a very good read. Lets see about the map. Enough extra food possibilities with corn and sugar. Grass land hills will make sure you still have enough production in carthage and you will be able to cottage spam the surroundings. Sugar on a river is a nice 3f/4c tile if I am not mistaken, so not bad. The corn however will never be irrigated as it is surrounded by hills as far as I could see.

I would go with the agr/BW/AH/pottery route to make the best out of it. All in all a very nice start especially if some iron/copper/horses would turn up in your BFC.

 

[ratrangerm]

Just so I'm clear on Warlords... you can't build a farm on grain squares that don't have access to water? I understand you get more food if it has access to fresh water/irrigation, but if you can build a farm there without needing irrigation, it's still a good idea.

At any rate, founding on that sugar square that isn't along the river looks like the way to go, but do move the Warrior onto the jungle to the north to see what might be available for the Hill square in question. If you get a good resource there, it might be worth moving the settler to that Hill.

I agree with those who say Ag/BW/Wheel/Pottery would be good. AH would be good to have to know where Horses are, but could change depending on what resources you find through exploration.

 

[KMadCandy]

i'm not much of a pop whipper, i forget to and then debate about when best to time the overflow and i'm just terrible at it. but i was thinking that you were heading agriculture to grow your pop to whip them. i just realized you can't do that until bronze working anyway. so you'd go agri to give the city a chance to grow, and have your first worker have something to do? you start with mining, farming the corn would let you work a mined hill and still grow the population, and/or work cottages once you have pottery. and bronze working would be put off more than usual since there seem to be few forests to chop?

this isn't advice, this is me trying to understand the reasons behind what you're picking. did i get it? kind of?

 

[uncarved block]

If the loss of a turn is that critical on Monarch, settling in place appears the best option, as what the Warrior could reveal in one move isn't going to be that informative. A crazy suggestion is to move the Warrior 1SW, to reveal the terrain 1S of the coastal Corn, and maybe (!) reveal if the square 1SW of said Corn is a Mountain.

Arguments for a coastal city, that I can see: getting the civs UB into your capitol; leaving those tiles 1W of the river open for a second city to work in case a critical resource appears due west in poor terrain (lots more Desert in Warlords than Vanilla, that's for sure); and you only lose one resource you aren't that thrilled about in the first place; and even if you don't build the Lighthouse in your capitol, it will benefit from the extra trade routes anyway.

Arguments for settling in place: more Forests to chop, with just as many chances to mine; no lost turn; no Jungle to contend with early (there would be two if you settle where the Warrior is now); the chance that your second city will, for any number of reasons (resources, terrain, neighbors, etc) not be all that great; and, as always, the chance the map generator has a goody still waiting for you to find close by. Me, I'd settle in place and gamble that something really nice is in the hidden tiles to the west. (Oh, and for everyone talking about settling before you can see a resource-- in one of my last games I got Writing before AH, and my Scout could see the corral but not what it held. Funny as heck to see.)

BW first seems to best option, because it still unlocks chopping and whipping. Sometimes boring is better, and it sounds as if Monarch is no time to roll the dice more than once. OTOH, AH is small enough to pick up easily at the expense of a worker tech, certainly a lot cheaper than IW. Eh, the route will be easier with more information-- go for Agriculture and use the time to explore and clear up what's currently dark.

 

[Sisiutil]

i'm not much of a pop whipper, i forget to and then debate about when best to time the overflow and i'm just terrible at it. but i was thinking that you were heading agriculture to grow your pop to whip them. i just realized you can't do that until bronze working anyway. so you'd go agri to give the city a chance to grow, and have your first worker have something to do? you start with mining, farming the corn would let you work a mined hill and still grow the population, and/or work cottages once you have pottery. and bronze working would be put off more than usual since there seem to be few forests to chop?

this isn't advice, this is me trying to understand the reasons behind what you're picking. did i get it? kind of?

Yeah, kind of. In a way, what you're writing is advice, since what I rely on people doing in these threads is alerting me to the benefits, costs, and implications of all the choices I face, and your post has added to the considerations for my decision-making. And yes, another thing people do is ensure that I clarify my thinking... as in, "What the heck were you thinking?!?"

I will probably build a Warrior for additional exploration while growing the city to size 2, then a Worker, which is my usual initial build plan. Starting with a handy Worker tech like mining and several hills nearby means there will be plenty for the Worker to do while other worker techs come on-line.

I'm thinking of researching Agriculture first, then farming the two riverside sugar tiles (bringing them up to 4 food) and having the capital's initial citizens work them first. Why? They'll provide additional commerce to boost my initial research, which the corn tile will not. I'll get to the corn soon afterwards, as it will provide 5 food and boost production of Settlers and Workers a bit. I may be able to work things so that by the time it's on-line and I'm producing my first Settler, I have 3 citizens and can work the two farmed sugars and the corn to help both teching and the Settler build concurrently.

So how does Agriculture -> Bronze Working -> Animal Husbandry sound? I'm hoping to have AH by the time the Settler comes out so I can snag one of the two early strategic resources with my 2nd city, assuming they don't appear in the capital's fat cross. After that, I agree, I'll be off after the Wheel and Pottery. We'll also see if I'm lucky enough to pop any techs from huts. Cross your fingers!

 

[carl corey]

The only question was about the corn getting run over by the jungle, in which case you'd have to wait for IW to farm it. If you feel lucky (well, do ya? ) you can farm the sugar first instead.

 

[Sisiutil]

The only question was about the corn getting run over by the jungle, in which case you'd have to wait for IW to farm it. If you feel lucky (well, do ya? ) you can farm the sugar first instead.

Can jungle overgrow a resource like that? I've never seen it happen.

 

[Elandal]

I wouldn't worry TOO much about the corn being taken over by jungle - by the looks of it SE of corn is forest, so it's got only one jungle tile bordering it. A tile that has 2-3 jungles around is in much more danger.
Then again, the RNG gods may be particularly evil at times, but when it comes to that you can't really do much but pray..

 

[Elandal]

Yes, jungle can grow over resources. As I noted earlier, I had my rice taken over by jungle before I got worker out in one game.. Then went one gem, and finally one grassland (non-resource so not big loss).

 

[KMadCandy]

verifying that yes it can happen, altho i'll knock wood for you that it doesn't. and i agree with Elandal that the more jungle surrounding a tile the bigger the danger, so you'll hopefully be okay. it can happen tho, even in the BFC, even once you your culture controls the whole BFC. bad bad jungle!!!

 

[Elandal]

The chance of jungle (and forest) growth depends directly on number of adjacent jungle (forest) tiles. It's something like 1/1000 per adjacent jungle tile per turn, halved by road, negated by improvement (for forest I think it was 1/2000).

So, assuming no road nor improvement, and one adjacent jungle tile, for 20 turns the chance of no jungle growth is 98% - thus 2% chance of jungle growth. With three adjacent jungle tiles, about 6% chance of jungle growth over 20 turns.

The chance of jungle growth isn't really that big, and hopefully your fat cross doesn't have jungle in all directions (well, at least north and east are fairly safe), but at times you have jungle starts inland, with jungle in ALL directions around the fat cross. Then you're not looking at measly 6% chance, but 4 tiles with 6% chance over those 20 turns, and 8 tiles with 10% chance (fat cross corner tiles can have 5 adjacent jungles), and thus losing 1-2 tiles during first 20 turns is almost inevitable.

Of course the longer the tile stays pristine, the higher the chance, so it's not a bad idea to try to priorize tiles with several jungles around when building improvements, assuming they're "as good as any other tile" (which isn't true - there's always some resource or riverside tile or something you want to improve first).

 

[NaZdReG]

Sisuitil,

the long term trade benefits gained by the UB to the capitol are too important to NOT settle on the coast I think... but alas you have no good fishing resources. even still the UB will give you +1 and +50%.. with the great lighthouse thats 4 routes at probably 4-6 a piece.

of cource you could just settle your 2nd city in that or a similar spot up to you. I'm not very good at this particular aspect w/o seing more of the map so I would also advocate moving the warrior 1N and if you see something really spiffy I'd go for it.

with the colossus those are 4c tiles.. not quite cottage good but still decent. but it could just as well be city #2 or 3.. let the trade routes make it somewhat able to keep up with the capitol cottaged up under beurocracy.

so I'd personally settle one city on warrior hill, and one 2sw or 1sw,1w with a 1 tile overlap. moving that way for the initial settler would be one hell of a gamble but with that river you have a watermill production powerhouse!!!

you couldnt make the move 2sw in a single turn though.. but you could do 1w then 1sw and settle on turn 2. or pick either site for city #2. without seing into the black the site I marked blue has 7 river tiles.. probably a few more.. take your pick either cottages or watermills it would kick ass.

thoughts?

NaZ

 

[kniteowl]

I think it's only tropical Resources that can get consumed by Jungle, I've NEVER seen a Corn resource covered in jungle or consumed by Jungle

 

[aelf]

Don't you wish you start with Agriculture or Hunting? I realised that the latter is a better starting tech than I thought for a long time. It guarantees that you can build spearmen immediately upon hooking up copper and it leads to AH. Of course, you also start with a scout that may pop an extra goody hut or two. However, my favourite combination is still Agriculture and The Wheel (the most expensive starting techs). I agree Fishing and Mining is a bummer, especially since there's no seafood around. That might have been enough reason for you to re-roll the map.

Sorry for not being on-topic

 

[Elandal]

I don't think those trade routes are THAT important for the capitol, NaZdReG. Not unless they are ToA'fied at least. Capitol usually gets best traderoutes, granted, but I think that's mostly because it's usually the biggest city.. Also, the starting spot just looks too sweet for cottage cheese to be passed - coastal cities can be founded and as the map opens up, good locations for them found.