ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[Mannu]

I thought you you were going to try to chop the oracle for a MC slingshot since you have gems? If so you need Pottery to allow you to select Metal Casting. I usually research it while I'm building the oracle though.

You can't do that and rush your neighbor though (I don't think).

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, so it sounds like the consensus is towards the green city on stuge's dotmap and sticking with Pottery, then Iron Working.

One concern I have with IW is that we may be forgoing the Oracle to get it. But, with no access to Copper and so much jungle around us, iron certainly seems much more important. I'm starting to rely less and less on the Oracle anyway, and we also don't have any marble to help build it (Kublai has that too, the little snake). I starting to think it would be better to rely on the Financial trait, cottages, and those lovely gems to keep us up in techs.

So I'm now thinking that after IW I may get Mysticism just for monuments, then jump over to Writing -> Alphabet. Thoughts?

 

[Heffling]

Don't forget that you want fishing for your future GP farm.

 

[IthacaMike]

Just for easy reference, here are the wonders that benefit from stone:

• Angkor Wat
• Chichen Itza
• Notre Dame
• Stonehenge
• The Hanging Gardens
• The Pyramid
• The Spiral Minaret
• Great Wall
• University of Sankore

And the Kremlin, for what it is worth.

 

[carl corey]

Not having even Mysticism for now I really don't think you should expect to get the Oracle. IW -> Myst -> Writing seems cool. What do you think about Maths and Construction as follow up though? You'll have elephants which is pretty huge if used early enough. It will likely cost you the Great Library but the move could get you a few juicy cities with very few losses instead.

 

[Sisiutil]

Don't forget that you want fishing for your future GP farm.

I appreciate the thought, but I rarely if ever bother with a conventional GP farm. My capital is usually the science city and houses the National Epic, the goal being to churn out research and Great Scientists. From the looks of the capital in this game, I think I'll be following that strat again. Which, carl corey, makes me reluctant to give up the GL this time, especially if I can wrest that marble from Kublai's cold, dead hands.

 

[pigswill]

What about using financial trait to establish a military tech lead, spiritual obviously allows flexible civics and go for domination?

 

[LucyDuke]

You already know that you don't have easy access to copper. With such a large amount of input on deciding where to build your cities, Iron Working seems like an important tech to chase early.

Oh wow. Kublai's got copper, and chances are good that your other neighbors can find some metal. I think this is a great point. You don't need cottages immediately, thanks to the gems. I don't know how much whipping you'll do, but it's always important to secure yourself some iron, especially when copper's not an option. If you get pottery then IW and it turns out that somebody just settled the only close source of iron, you're going to be kicking yourself in the ass when they come running in with axes, maces, and what-have-you, pillaging your cottages and kidnapping your women.

I suppose stone is take-it-or-leave-it, but iron, especially without copper, is essential. It's not going to be nearly as easy to take away someone's iron city as it is their stone city. An iron reveal will also have a huge influence on city placement. Tech-wise, figure out the iron situation. Quickly. Knowledge is power.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

What about using financial trait to establish a military tech lead, spiritual obviously allows flexible civics and go for domination?

Only problem with that, and it's not so much a problem as a choice, is that he's trying for a relatively peaceful type of victory this time and less warmongering.

Now, I think the consensus is right - get IW up and running to find where the metal is, and get City (I like the name, KMad ) to keep Issy from snagging the site before you (not to mention the stone and other goodies). Then practice your best James T. Kirk impression:

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!

 

[popejubal]

Only problem with that, and it's not so much a problem as a choice, is that he's trying for a relatively peaceful type of victory this time and less warmongering.

I think that this is a good choice for Mansa-Man, but I'd also point out that a peaceful victory is easier and more efficient when you've conquored one of your neighbors and have an empire about twice the size of your neighbors.

 

[Sisiutil]

Only problem with that, and it's not so much a problem as a choice, is that he's trying for a relatively peaceful type of victory this time and less warmongering.

Well, yes, but depending on how the religious cookie crumbles, Izzy may be hard to get along with, Mehmed is one of those guys who never hates me but never warms up much either, and my growing antipathy towards Kublai is patently obvious. So we'll see how things play out.

 

[pigswill]

The most interesting aspect of this part of the game is establishing priorities. A couple of wonders have been mentioned (SH,Oracle); there's the idea of producing settlers for early rex and then there's the idea of building up a chariot stack (unless iron is around somewhere) and going after Kublai. I'm really not sure that all of these can be achieved simultaneously.

 

[Elrohir]

Well, yes, but depending on how the religious cookie crumbles, Izzy may be hard to get along with, Mehmed is one of those guys who never hates me but never warms up much either, and my growing antipathy towards Kublai is patently obvious. So we'll see how things play out.

Be careful of Mehmed. In a game I was just playing (As Mansa Musa, oddly enough) he vassalized two AI (Elizabeth on his continent, who was my ally but he was beating up on, and Kublai, who was on my continent and I was kicking the stuffing out of) in one turn and declared war on me, despite my never adopting any religion.

He's generally just cranky, but religion isn't the only thing that will set him off, apparently. Don't trust him as far as you can throw him.

 

[Sisiutil]

The most interesting aspect of this part of the game is establishing priorities. A couple of wonders have been mentioned (SH,Oracle); there's the idea of producing settlers for early rex and then there's the idea of building up a chariot stack (unless iron is around somewhere) and going after Kublai. I'm really not sure that all of these can be achieved simultaneously.

Almost certainly not, especially as you climb the difficulty levels. This is why there are so many early wonders I never build. (It is fun, every once in a while, to drop to Settler or Warlord and build every single friggin' one of 'em though. )

Right now, in this game, I think a certain amount of expansion is what's called for. There is land available for settlement, and I find it's always easier to do what ya gotta do if you have a few cities founded. Also, the point's been made that the diplomatic and religious situations have to shake out before I commit myself to any specific path of aggression or what have you, which makes sense.

 

[carl corey]

I appreciate the thought, but I rarely if ever bother with a conventional GP farm. My capital is usually the science city and houses the National Epic, the goal being to churn out research and Great Scientists. From the looks of the capital in this game, I think I'll be following that strat again. Which, carl corey, makes me reluctant to give up the GL this time, especially if I can wrest that marble from Kublai's cold, dead hands.

Gotcha. Or... you could wrest the GL too from his hands. I know, it's a risk if someone else builds it instead. Go your way then.

 

[Strato]

The only danger going for IW is that it's a bit of a gamble as to whether iron is readily available. It would be pretty sucky if KK had it in his borders too. However, it is a gamble that I reckon has to be made, because it isn't much good working with a restrictive military - the spears, axes and swords are too good to not have, versus the benefit of getting oracle, which is one tech that financial trait should be able to compensate for anyway.

 

[Sabertooth]

What does "rex" or "rexing" mean? I'm wracking my brain cause I suspect its so obvious, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

 

[Sisiutil]

What does "rex" or "rexing" mean? I'm wracking my brain cause I suspect its so obvious, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Rapid EXpansion. A standard strat in previous versions of Civ; possible in Civ IV, but must be restrained in comparison. To me, REX in Civ IV means expanding peacefully early on to around 6 - 8 cities. If I intend to expand through war, 3 - 4 will be enough to start.

 

[patagonia]

I appreciate the thought, but I rarely if ever bother with a conventional GP farm. My capital is usually the science city and houses the National Epic, the goal being to churn out research and Great Scientists. From the looks of the capital in this game, I think I'll be following that strat again. Which, carl corey, makes me reluctant to give up the GL this time, especially if I can wrest that marble from Kublai's cold, dead hands.

With the spiritual trait at your disposal, you have no need for a "GP farm" with maximum enabled scientist slots, as a few turns in caste system running at a food deficit will easily take care of that for you. Because of that, you don't need to pair NE and Oxford, so to maximise the benefits I'd make sure the NE is in your highest food city, with Oxford in your highest commerce city. If that's the capital, then great, but if not, that's fine too.

 

[Sabertooth]

Sis:

Ah, thank you.

For what it's worth, by the way, here are my two cents regarding war:

In your last game with Toku you wisely, in my opinion, looked around, figured out who was the baddest opponent in your neighborhood, and opened a can o' righteous samurai whup-a$$ on the poor fellow. This was a good choice because it played to Toku's strengths as an aggressive, organized leader possessing a very effective UU.

Mansa is different, particularly because his strength lies less in warmongering and more in effectively exploiting territory under his possession. He can do a lot more with a lot less land than Toku. This means that it's probably wiser for Mansa to look around the neighborhood and pick the weakest civ, rather than the toughest, as his first victim. In other words, all things being equal, had you been playing Mansa instead of Toku in the last match, it would have probably made better strategic sense to go after your weaker opponent first; and chances are you would not have been all that far behind your strongest opponent anyway, thanks to the financial trait.

So, in this game then, my advice: start by grabbing as much good land as you can, peacefully – rexing, basically. Then take a look around and see which civ in your vicinity possesses land that might be particularly advantageous to your empire. Weigh that against the cost of going to war against that civ. I suspect in the long run you will be better served by incrementally absorbing the land of your weaker neighbors, in this game, than by going after your most dangerous opponent first.

Its a bit strange to by writing to someone this way, as if you know them, when they probably haven't the faintest clue who you are. Like many here, I often read your ALCs with great interest, but seldom post because I don't have all that much to add. It just happens that in this case, you've never played Mansa while he's one of my favorite leaders whom I've played often, so I figure that fact might mean I have a little insight into this particular game. I dig Mansa big time and as I wrote in the pre-game, I think you're going to really enjoy this match as well. He's great fun and a real powerhouse when played right.