ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[Dagenham Dave]

Yes, I believe it is time Isabella finds out that the hand that can caress can also deliver a good punch.

 

[Strato]

Why not try a war on the other continent, or see if old Ragnar has aluminum that can be "acquired?" Even as far as making him a vassal state. Sure, it would be nice to show Izzy just how good your new found freedom is, but to risk a war with Izzy is to risk your precious cottages being razed to the ground if she gets inside your borders. That said, I believe it is strongly important that you do maintain good relations with the AI on your continent so they don't declare war and cripple your GNP, and therefore your research lead.

Secondly, I reckon spies will be your best friend in this game to sabotage the spaceship parts if they get in the process of being built. You have the income necessary to do the deeds, depends on if you want to take a risk and suffer a diplo hit though.

I would be pushing out a decent naval force, if anything to fogbust a bit to watch for any incoming forces.

 

[carl corey]

I just said the exact opposite = using all cities to get a massive army in 4/turns:
- turn 1 : start tank in every city except pentagon builder (and possibly broadway builder, but that's debatable)
- turn 2 : start infantry or canon or ship in every city except pentagon builder (queue swapping)
- turn 3, after pentagon is done, switch to theocracy, US, (vassalage is an option too, but I not needed IMHO), $ rush canons and infantries and ships
- turn 4, $rush tanks.
- turn 5 : war!

having only 10 cities dedicated to this $ spending, you may have room for a third go. more tanks and cannons and infantry cannot be totally bad

If WW turns nasty, the spiritual sisiutil can then switch to police state.
IMHO, $ rushing is costing less than drafting, since you cannot grow back this fast with all those cottages.

edit : ho one more thing, I wouldn't let niani and tadmekka finish the destroyers before pentagon is done (so starting a tank there is good even if you don't plan to $ rush it).

I took a look at the save and I agree that this is probably the best plan. You have tons of money and huge production (even more so after you build the Dam - bring the GE there to hurry it), so you'll have three times the army you have now in no time. You currently have 11 Rifles, 9 Infantry, 9 Cannons and 9 Cavalry. With two-three building rounds those units won't even matter! I wouldn't worry about Huayna either. Build lots of Destroyers & Battleships and get Flight somewhere in there for Bombers and anything that he might unload on your continent will be wiped out before he knows it.

Edit: Besides, you don't need much more infrastructure. Just build units everywhere and you'll be more than fine.

If you plan in going for a long war then don't forget to build Mt Rushmore. I'm not sure why you want Broadway, I'd give it a skip. You can always pick the resource from whomever builds it, and no one has any money/resources they could give in exchange anyway.

One correction about Mehmed and Artillery: don't ask Artillery from him and then let him tell you want he wants for it. If you propose Assembly Line in return, he'll give you Artillery, money AND the map. Electricity is slightly less favored, and you'll have to throw in some money of your own to make the trade (he doesn't care for your map).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

My hunch is also war, but then again, I'm not sure if beating up your ex-girlfriend is a good idea in these... err... more civilized times.

Actually, if space race is your concern, I would seriously calculate the number of hammers you would save if you got the aluminium (space elevator, three gorges dam, spaceship parts...) and see how many tanks you could produce. Could you get what you want, and defend it, with that many units? Not to mention the civic upkeep from police state, and the inability to rush units.

I would be inclined not to go to war in this case. Your health problems, actually, are caused by your empire size, or lack of. You simply don't have enough variety of resources. Also, I looked at your terrain carefully, and you seem to have enough hills to bypass grassland workshops under state property. What I would do:

- environmentalism (via medicine, and trade it too. AI's don't go for that tech). +6 health, or +2 population, right there.
- mine hills and any lumbermill any forests you have left.
- farm to feed your mines. After biology, more efficient than windmills anyway.
- TRY to trade for aluminium. Keep gifting Ragnar techs until aluminium is revealed, than trade everything you got for it. Reason for Ragnar: he doesn't have nearly enough techs for space race competitor anyway.

Of course, you could still just go to war for fun, and frankly it's less complicated. But you're the Mansa, do it the hard way.

 

[cabert]

at this point with such a massive tech lead, it would be wasteful to not get the resources you're lacking.
Being under state property, you could even find a good use for ragnar's crappy cities.

edit : and if you have a little more cities and power, you're so much less likely to be attacked.

 

[Structure]

I'm pretty sure a space race win without alum is within your abilities. If you keep the DP with Mehmed I bet Huayna will attack Izzy and not you.

However, Cabert's plan sounds like soooo much more FUN Izzy needs to be vassilized. It's personal. She did steal you pigs back before you made friends. So we know she is a naughty girl. If you can get Huayna to dogpile Izzy (hmmm, bad image) then it should also keep him out of trouble for a while.

A) this will be more interesting because, well, because it's Izzy

B) it will still be challenging and educational to see how quickly you can pull it off and get back onto the space race.

BTW, thanks for the last couple write ups. Very funny stuff!

 

[Heffling]

Can you culturally push Santiago into flipping and giving you your aluminum peacefully? I'm at work so I can't check the save here.

 

[Sisiutil]

Nice write-up.
Don't trust Mehmed.
Trust no-one.

Thank you, Mr. X. Scully and I will keep that in mind.

The real war civics are free speech for culture, theocracy (duh!) and Universal suffrage!
You could start building tanks/battleships/infantry/ canons (or trade for artillery, it's on the way to rocketry anyway) all over the place, switch to US and theo, run 100% gold, wait for the pentagon to be finished, then $rush in those tanks in every city. After one round of buying, you can go back to research and just use your production cities to build the reinforcements.

If you do it this way, the war on isabella should be really short!
Santiago and valencia should fall on the first turn of war, you could use your GA to get the aluminium connected in this same first turn , and then infantry would defend those cities safely.
Your battelships would get the city defenses down to 0% while you face the counterattack (conquistadores ) in them.
You should be able to take the next cities with tanks alone...
And this is where isa should capitulate (although she can be a bit stubborn from my experience).

edit : one more thing, why didn't you use your GE to finish broadway?
one more more thing, is there some aluminium in ragnar's land?

I like this plan.

I'm saving the GE for something bigger and better--probably the Three Gorges Dam. As carl corey pointed out, Broadway isn't crucial; I don't like using a GE for it unless I'm going for a cultural win.

I'll have to check Ragnar's land and post back the results before we make our final decision. But he'd have to have not only aluminum, but also sheep and crabs and other health resources to make him a more attractive target.

Of course, if the warmonger in you is just itching to be unleashed...

You obviously know me a little too well.

How did you live this long with Isabella without getting crabs?

Has Wall Street been built yet? If not, Madrid looks like a good place for it...just sayin'.

You're evil, you know that? We should hang out.

However, Cabert's plan sounds like soooo much more FUN

Exactly--it's a game, and it's all about the fun. I don't need aluminum, I just want it. And the health resources too. And, well, the challenge. Can I manage a late-game war while keeping up with the space race? Especially against tech monster Huayna?

Can you culturally push Santiago into flipping and giving you your aluminum peacefully? I'm at work so I can't check the save here.

I considered that, but it would take a lot of work. Even if I flip the city, I'd then have to work at flipping its neighbouring tiles. It's easier just to conquer it, frankly.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

And what should I research next? I was thinking if it's peace, I go for Plastics next and build the dam in Walata. If it's war, then Radio is the next tech (helped by the GA), followed by Flight for Bombers. Or are there better choices I'm not considering?

Are you already forgetting how vital Artillery was for the Hannibal game? At strength 18, they're strong enough frequently to win battles, and whether they win or lose, they cause nice collateral damage.

 

[Joxer]

Can you handle the demerits with everyone else if you go to war with Isabella?

I think a lightning war is called for, if it gets prolonged, she will look for help.

She could probably bribe G.W. or even Ragnar into war since they seem less developed that her, especially if your unlucky. And if things really go south, the Incas could join in because of the whole shared religion with Ragnar and G.W.

I think Ragnar should be the target, he would be easy pickings and could not offer much to garner assistance from anyone.

 

[Kietharr]

I'd say whip and draft out a huge army and blitzkreig her. If she is using riflemen vs your infantry she won't be able to hold out long against overwhelming numbers. Later on, after your aluminium is secured, I'd also suggest looking into raiding Huayana's land and torching a few cities and pillage as much as you can, it can fund deficit research and weaken huyana at the same time, provided you have a large navy to be sure he won't land a stack on your shore.

 

[Eggolas]

As you've committed to a Space Race victory, my advice, having about the same desirability as fashion advice offered by Simon Cowell, would be to build some tanks and marines as you move to US and purchase factories and coal plants. Save the GE for the Space Elevator.

Your mfg advantage will eventually prevail. Aluminum may become important and you can always fight a limited war for that if it becomes necessary. However, I favor that you can outproduce the AI when it comes to Spaceship parts.

While Three Gorges is nice, it isn't worth the expenditure of a GE until you have a spare. Saving the Golden Age for spaceship building is a good plan as well.

Have fun!

 

[KMadCandy]

I'll have to check Ragnar's land and post back the results before we make our final decision. But he'd have to have not only aluminum, but also sheep and crabs and other health resources to make him a more attractive target.

dude. i'm a girl and even IMO isabella is 100 times more attractive than ragnar. oh wait, you meant as a target.

I considered that, but it would take a lot of work. Even if I flip the city, I'd then have to work at flipping its neighbouring tiles. It's easier just to conquer it, frankly.

quite true and then some.

 

[willpax]

Given the health limitations that Sisutil is complaining of (and the lack of fresh water in several cities), the free power plants of 3GD seem like a good bonus to shoot for. Hopefully his increasing research prowess should enable him to have a head start on the Space Elevator, and his first-place production capacity should lead to a victory with or without the aluminum.

That said, I have very strong builder/peacemonger tendencies. A quick war with Isabella to grab a few resources sounds like a great idea. But will she agree to peace relatively quickly? You don't want this thing to drag out in any way. Given the tech and money advantage, you would probably be able to get a quick peace in exchange for something on your end, but we all know how unreasonable Izzy can be.

 

[Sisiutil]

Given the health limitations that Sisutil is complaining of (and the lack of fresh water in several cities), the free power plants of 3GD seem like a good bonus to shoot for. Hopefully his increasing research prowess should enable him to have a head start on the Space Elevator, and his first-place production capacity should lead to a victory with or without the aluminum.

That said, I have very strong builder/peacemonger tendencies. A quick war with Isabella to grab a few resources sounds like a great idea. But will she agree to peace relatively quickly? You don't want this thing to drag out in any way. Given the tech and money advantage, you would probably be able to get a quick peace in exchange for something on your end, but we all know how unreasonable Izzy can be.

D'OH! Fresh water, of course. Well, that and the fact that other health resources like crabs, deer, sheep, and so on only seem to occur once on the map.

A good point about the advantages of TGD over coal plants in these circumstances, though. As for Isabella, I expect my military will completely outclass hers, especially once I gold-rush it as per cabert's plans. I'll just keep taking cities until she either wants to make peace or capitulate to me. As has been pointed out, I haven't built Wall Street yet and Madrid would make a nice location for it.

Then again, I did want to play out this game peacefully, didn't I? Just to prove it could be done? Maybe I should let bygones be bygones with Izzy and me and just get everything done without aluminum (or try to trade for it). War might be a distraction at this point.

As for the GE, if Huayna is threatening to beat me to the TGD, I'll probably use him for that. But if I have a clear lead on getting the dam complete, I'll save him for the Space Elevator.

 

[Galileo44]

Why don't you do whatever you need to do and try to win Space with your best ALC time ever. I think that means war with Izzy for a few turns just to take aluminum.

 

[Validator]

Sisiutil,

First let me say that that was a really amusing write-up. You have the ability to make even a boring round where nothing really happened seem interesting.

As to how to proceed from here, I understand that you might want to go to war with Isabella, but I don't see it making a significant improvement in your finishing time for the space ship, and in fact might even slow you down.

As others have pointed out Al isn't really that important to space ship building since the last parts don't get speeded up by having it. It will save some hammers on the early parts, but you have enough production to ensure that those parts will be finished in time to start building the last parts as soon as the required tech is researched.

And there are some negatives associated with fighting a war to consider:

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is that you will almost certainly suffer WW, and probably almost immediately. That means either lowering the productivity of your cities because of angry citizens or running some culture which means less science. You could switch to Police State, but that means giving up either Rep. or US and it's also high upkeep.

Another point that nobody has mentioned is that you have the ability to build research. How many turns of research could you get if you direct your cities' hammers into science instead of building up the force that you'll use to take on Isabella?

I'll point out again that you may be able to get Al in trade from either Isabella or Mehmed as they both have multiple sources. Ragnar actually has 3 sources, but he's so far behind in tech that he probably won't even have researched Industrialism by the end of the game. Another interesting point that nobody has mentioned is that Huayna also doesn't have Al, and given his much lower production it will be a much greater loss to him.

One other possibility to get Al is to use your GA to try to flip Izmir. Izmir has gained a little culture since the last update, but it might be possible, especially if you end up getting another GA.


Regarding TGD, I also feel that it's not really that important. I think one problem you have to look at in future games is your aversion to coal plants. Yes they can cause health issues, but in some cases your cities have health to spare, and in other cases you can find some way to deal with the unhealth.

In this game Djenne is building Broadway without any source of power even though it could have built an aqueduct to compensate for the coal plant unhealth. Walata is building Pentagon without power and it has a couple of spare health. Timbuktu would at first glance seem to be a city that shouldn't build a coal plant because of its health situation. But if workers convert the two grassland hill mines to windmills it will have enough food to maintain its current population even with the additional unhealth. The change would give Timbuktu more production (because of the +50% from power) and more commerce (from the windmills) and leave the city in the same food state (stagnant at pop 23).

Having your cities live without power from the time factories are completed until when TGD is completed seems like a waste, especially in cases where AL is acquired early.

In this game I suppose since you don't have any coal plants and you have a GE available, researching Plastics next so that TGD can be built makes some sense. But it will mean delaying Rocketry which means Apollo will be finished later. Also where do you plan on building TGD and Apollo? You probably won't have TGD done in time to start Apollo immediately in the same city, so you'll either have to build them in different locations or wait even longer for Apollo.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

kill izzy!!!!

 

[carl corey]

kill izzy!!!!

Short and to the point. I just experienced a Cavalry vs Longbows fight and your war will be something pretty close to this. Your Tanks should take care of any problems and you can let Infantry behind to guard the cities. I'd say it's very easy to take what you want and to completely ruin her if you don't want the rest of the territory. The "price" you'd pay for it is a little war weariness and having an improved army. The first will stop after you sign peace, and the second thing you need anyway. So go for it. You can then dedicate a couple of cities to building military only and you'll be able to keep up with the others and avoid anyone declaring on you.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

For the writeup:

(Hey, Mehmed is what they call a "bear", right? Haaa, just kidding!)

I guess then, with Ragnar's penchant for wearing animal parts , that would make him a furry?

As for Isabella...what it really boils down to is whether you WANT to "Let slip the dogs of war", because you definitely don't NEED to. You've got more production than a Boy Band's or American Idol winner's album, and tacking on the boost from 3GD and those factories will ice it. Not to mention, with that DP and Mehmed's friendliness, trading for an extra Aluminum is quite possible if you really want it. Does anyone else have sheep and crabs for sale? Again, you probably don't need them, but they'd be nice to have for the health benefits. Ultimately though, you could just keep on truckin' and get space race win - but if you're finding peaceable ways boring, then feel free to indulge yourself! If the goal was to check and see if a mostly peaceful win could be done, I would say that you've pretty much succeeded in that goal.

I can't find the quote, but someone mentioned looking at how many hammers you'd spend on warfighting versus what you could do with those hammers building research instead. That's a good way of looking at it. Wars are inefficient, but that's not why you fight them.