ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan
- Thread starter Sisiutil
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I was thinking about how this could look in a mp game. Imagine you're alone on a small continent, doggedly working towards Astronomy. Then BOOM, up pops the message "Sisiutl has won a Domination victory!"
50_dollar_bag
Imitation Louis Vuitton
Ha. I like the idea of Vassalizing Mansa and steering him away from Liberalism, I must try that one day. But with my luck he usually on another continent...
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
That's hilarious!There is only one other civ, we have met a total of 6 including the Mongols. Someone is on their own little island feeling safe because they built the Chichen Itza.
"Ha! We're invincible now! Let those other civs just try to take our cities! Ha ha!
...er... where the heck is everybody, anyway? Hello?"
I went a bit overboard for the last civ.
Domination certainly is easier to achieve now than conquest.
I'd still vassalize churchill and bismarck, I have the feeling that it would speed up the domination, with less distance maintenance to pay for.
Just one more thing :
when (not if
) you're the master of the continent, use the culture slider and some well placed settlers to get the land quickly. You don't need that many cities to fill up.
Domination certainly is easier to achieve now than conquest.
I'd still vassalize churchill and bismarck, I have the feeling that it would speed up the domination, with less distance maintenance to pay for.
Just one more thing :
when (not if
) you're the master of the continent, use the culture slider and some well placed settlers to get the land quickly. You don't need that many cities to fill up.namliaM
Deity
If you are going for Domination, you should also start planning for it by city placement.
I.e. dont make (a lot of) harbor cities. Just buld inland cities to claim land fast.
I.e. dont make (a lot of) harbor cities. Just buld inland cities to claim land fast.
exactly my point!
Of course, a dual seafood city is always a welcomed addition to an empire (if only for the specialists).
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
we all know that as a general rule i'm too lazy to do math homework-type-stuff for a game now that i'm in theory a grown-up, and out of college. we truly don't have a sense of what the world as a whole looks like yet at this point and that's part of the fun for me. however, it complicates the math as far as vassals and domination victory; maybe someone more math-inclined can help me out.
"Half of the vassal's territory and population count towards the master's domination victory and score."
do we have a gut feeling that this continent is big enough so that (S's own territory % + [one-half of [territory % of each S vassal]) = insert magic winning territory percentage here) ? maybe we just wanna see how a domination victory plays out with vassals for once? my victory condition vote is do what'll be more fun
and that seems like it will be!
i have never been one to vote "go the easy but boring path to victory in an ALC" and i wouldn't vote that way now. after all, if the vassals-helping-us-to-achieve-dom path doesn't work then we change to conquest by finding the ABBA-song-wonder-builder out there and kill or vassalize him. i'm asking just to understand the implications of the formula.
"Half of the vassal's territory and population count towards the master's domination victory and score."
do we have a gut feeling that this continent is big enough so that (S's own territory % + [one-half of [territory % of each S vassal]) = insert magic winning territory percentage here) ? maybe we just wanna see how a domination victory plays out with vassals for once? my victory condition vote is do what'll be more fun
and that seems like it will be! i have never been one to vote "go the easy but boring path to victory in an ALC" and i wouldn't vote that way now. after all, if the vassals-helping-us-to-achieve-dom path doesn't work then we change to conquest by finding the ABBA-song-wonder-builder out there and kill or vassalize him. i'm asking just to understand the implications of the formula.
one thing I never understand in domination is that the % seems to vary from one game to another
That's why I like a victory screen screenshot.
I'll do the maths with 43% population and 64% land (those were the targets in the previous ALC, I have no other reference right now).
Let's assume that this continent is 80% of total landmass.
Let's assume that Sisiutil manages to have as many people on his average city as the AIs so
it's land only that counts.
With a much lesser requirement on pop than on land, I think it's safe.
Being the top dog, and planting a few cities to fill the continent, I think Sisiutil should easily get 40% of this continent = 32% of total land mass.
the rest of the continent being vassals, it will be 60% of the continent = 48% of total land mass.
adding 32% + half of 48% gives only 56%. A bit short.
2 options :
- grabbing more land on this continent (easiest option, and maybe not even optionnal if the AIs don't fall like flies).
- finding the alien and taking one or 2 cities from him. If he capitulates, it's conquest, if not it's domination.
Before choosing one way or the other, a little more intelligence is required.
1) A boat would be the best exploration, a Keshik could do the exploration fast enough but not as far, they don't swim well.
2) a victory screenie + a good map of the known land could help assess the missing land. If this continent is 90% of the world, you just need to take 42% of this landmass and to vassalize the rest to win.
That's why I like a victory screen screenshot
.I'll do the maths with 43% population and 64% land (those were the targets in the previous ALC, I have no other reference right now).
Let's assume that this continent is 80% of total landmass.
Let's assume that Sisiutil manages to have as many people on his average city as the AIs so
it's land only that counts.
With a much lesser requirement on pop than on land, I think it's safe.
Being the top dog, and planting a few cities to fill the continent, I think Sisiutil should easily get 40% of this continent = 32% of total land mass.
the rest of the continent being vassals, it will be 60% of the continent = 48% of total land mass.
adding 32% + half of 48% gives only 56%. A bit short.
2 options :
- grabbing more land on this continent (easiest option, and maybe not even optionnal if the AIs don't fall like flies).
- finding the alien and taking one or 2 cities from him. If he capitulates, it's conquest, if not it's domination.
Before choosing one way or the other, a little more intelligence is required.
1) A boat would be the best exploration, a Keshik could do the exploration fast enough but not as far, they don't swim well.
2) a victory screenie + a good map of the known land could help assess the missing land. If this continent is 90% of the world, you just need to take 42% of this landmass and to vassalize the rest to win.
Well thought out maths there cabert
I think the analysis shows that we should only vassalise one of the current civs (say Mansa) and then when we attack the next (say Churchill) if he offers to vassalise to us we simply refuse. Then if he vassalises to Bismark who cares? We just continue the war with us and Mansa against Bismark and his vassal. I don't see a big problem except a potential delay. This technique of prolonging the various wars allows us to gain a larger % of the land for ourselves where it counts at full value rather than only half value if it is held by vassals.
We really need to know about the missing civ(s) and the size of ithe landmass they have. That will allow a definite plan of domination.
With war elephants built in cities with Ger and catapults we are ready to begin the conquest. Our only limitation is the costs of a large army and expanded empire, so we need to concentrate on ways to raise money. The use of multiple GM trade missions is not going to be sufficient in future (especially if we are at war and don't have access to another civ). The proceeds from razing and pillage will not be sufficient to fund a large army outside our culture except for a short while. We need more marketplaces for the 25% bonus and the ability to run merchants.
Domination is easily possible, the question is, how quickly can we get Sisiutil to pull it off?
I think the analysis shows that we should only vassalise one of the current civs (say Mansa) and then when we attack the next (say Churchill) if he offers to vassalise to us we simply refuse. Then if he vassalises to Bismark who cares? We just continue the war with us and Mansa against Bismark and his vassal. I don't see a big problem except a potential delay. This technique of prolonging the various wars allows us to gain a larger % of the land for ourselves where it counts at full value rather than only half value if it is held by vassals.
We really need to know about the missing civ(s) and the size of ithe landmass they have. That will allow a definite plan of domination.
With war elephants built in cities with Ger and catapults we are ready to begin the conquest. Our only limitation is the costs of a large army and expanded empire, so we need to concentrate on ways to raise money. The use of multiple GM trade missions is not going to be sufficient in future (especially if we are at war and don't have access to another civ). The proceeds from razing and pillage will not be sufficient to fund a large army outside our culture except for a short while. We need more marketplaces for the 25% bonus and the ability to run merchants.
Domination is easily possible, the question is, how quickly can we get Sisiutil to pull it off?
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
i think i know at least in part (spoilered below) how the percentage of land needed for dom varies. i agree with you that we only need to be concerned with land, pop is easy to grow while/once the land falls into place. and we're creative which is so nice for that. even if we put no effort into it re:investing in the cheap buildings, it'll add up over time nicely in the junk cities placed purely for gaining tiles.one thing I never understand in domination is that the % seems to vary from one game to another
Before choosing one way or the other, a little more intelligence is required.
1) A boat would be the best exploration, a Keshik could do the exploration fast enough but not as far, they don't swim well.
2) a victory screenie + a good map of the known land could help assess the missing land. If this continent is 90% of the world, you just need to take 42% of this landmass and to vassalize the rest to win.
i agree that intel is important, but not so much that we need it before we choose one way or the other. we take the chosen victims on our continent as vassals, and then domination can turn into conquest very easily. during our "tech to boats (with help from mansa for that or other techs?) then fight the other guy" stage we'll be making cities, several of which will be real cities, not just junk ones to claim land. that sets the stage for the capability to kill/vassalize mystery-civ anyway. as long as we settle enough on our continent that neighbor-vassals stay vassals, they're considered conquered anyway, so that's taken care of, no matter what we have to do with mystery-civ.
i do want the F8 screenshot, and am too lazy to look back in the thread to see if there was one already. the thought of keshiks exploring the other landmass quickly, but not swimming well, sent me into gigglefits and scared my poor dogs!
spoiler for at least some of the variables for land percentage required for domination victory:
Spoiler :
Really?
It only tells that we need to get over a certain % of landmass before vassalizing the last one
.Let's say you see 55%, and Bismarck has 20%, it means that if you vassalize him, you win!
If Sisiutil vassalizes Mansa Musa and they both go for churchill, no city should be razed (not counting MM's crappy cities). After that, it's time for settlers and more units to get bismarck. Keep taking cities (he cannot vassalize to any one else
) while pushing the culture slider to swallow has many tiles as possible, (or use artists running castes system) until you see the magic number making your land % + half of bismarck's land over the limit.right
That's why I would have settled the first 2 guys
.no razing!
maybe caste sytem + mercantilism would give some benefits there
Yep, there is hardly any challenge left in this game.
go Sisiutil, go
no razing!
maybe caste sytem + mercantilism would give some benefits there
We should not raze any cities of Mansa assuming we vassalise him as that might stop him from being friendly with us later. We want Mansa to do some useful research for us and he then needs to trade.
But if we decide to destroy Churchill and or Bismark then there is no diplomatic penalty for razing any of their cities, it is a decision we can make on a strictly economic or cultural (for land %
basis.I don't see the Caste System as being much use to us in this situation. We can just build culture once we research Music or whip in a theatre to run a couple of artists. We should run Slavery until the bitter end.
One thing that might have a bearing in this situation is the special provision for how control of tiles is decided between a master and his vassal. Any tiles in the fat cross of a city owned by the master are immediately under his control regardless of the culture if they are closer to the master's city square than to the vassal's city square. We could "capture" quite a few tiles from any vassals using that special rule in addition to winning other tiles by just generating a lot more culture as per normal. Kublai being Creative is very good in this situation being able to generate a moderate amount of culture very quickly and cheaply. It will be interesting to see if this affects Sisiutil's finishing moves.
^^the other advantage of creative is the low cost theater and library.
whipping a theater and a library for just the price of a library is cool.
2 turns after the end of the revolt, you could have 7cpt.
OK, slavery looks better than caste system.
whipping a theater and a library for just the price of a library is cool.
2 turns after the end of the revolt, you could have 7cpt.
OK, slavery looks better than caste system.
Yes the low cost library and theatre is exactly what I meant by "able to generate a moderate amount of culture very quickly and cheaply". Obviously spare food could then be used to run one or two artists to get to the 150 culture needed for the second border pop on Epic quicker.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Is F8 the victory screen? Can we get a shot of that? It tells you the percent land you've got as well as the percent land you need, and with that shot and the map of the continent we can figure out what percent of total land this continent is. I'm sure it's enough to pull off domination with, and it would be fun to catch the win without ever meeting mystery civ. 
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
you are right again! i've hated this every time i've used him this way, but it's just a fact. some were overlapping so bad i knew they'd drive me crazy, but they were on "my" side of the line so i wasn't about to let him have them back. i didn't raze 'em since i really wanted him back on good terms later. i just whipped the annoying ones until they were small enough that they'd not overload my "but waaaah my cities must be lovely" obsession. i did not get the "you razed one of our cities!" modifier and it paid off.
BlueSoxSWJ
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
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Is F8 the victory screen? Can we get a shot of that? It tells you the percent land you've got as well as the percent land you need, and with that shot and the map of the continent we can figure out what percent of total land this continent is. I'm sure it's enough to pull off domination with, and it would be fun to catch the win without ever meeting mystery civ.
This is exactly why I like having the F8 screen posted after settling the first settler - right then you can tell how much land is in the world, because you know your land % and you know you control 9 tiles. With some more algebra, you can tell exactly how many land tiles you need and have that number available for the rest of the game.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
the more i think about this the more i like it. yeah if we make assumptions about getting all the land tiles on this continent it sounds super easy. but really, we have no way of encouraging them to settle every junk tile to get somebody's culture on each tile of the continent. yes they always have a settler around somewhere, even in 2045 AD, and they'll always expand, but, will they do it at the rate that we want? including number of cities, cities spread far enough apart, and spreading out culture from those cities so that tiles between fat crosses are counted too? oh the waits i've had when i've been on purpose running that culture slider trying to get that last two percent to hit the magic number!! churchill and/or bismarck, no matter how big or small, as a vassal certainly won't help that any, only make it harder, since our push at the end would by definition have an effect on less total area. only exception is if he/they have their entire territory (1) the right size to put us over at 50% but not too big so that only 50% puts us under and (2) completely covered in their culture without annoying gaps.
bright side: if they're vassals, you automatically get open borders with them (you have to grant them OB with you tho, that side isn't automatic). so if they did have a gap in their territory you could go settle it.
you're getting at what i was wondering about the formula. i really don't know that we know enough about the map to assume that our continent is big enough that if a fairly significant portion of it counts only 50% for us, as vassal territory, rather than 100% as our own, that it'll be enough.
Really? It only tells that we need to get over a certain % of landmass before vassalizing the last one
If Sisiutil vassalizes Mansa Musa and they both go for churchill, no city should be razed (not counting MM's crappy cities). After that, it's time for settlers and more units to get bismarck. Keep taking cities (he cannot vassalize to any one else
Yep, there is hardly any challenge left in this game.
go Sisiutil, go
it's entirely possible that i'm misinterpreting what you're saying (i'm reading during lunch, and typing with my mouth full, how rude)--seems to me "we'll do a lot of the work but we'll also sit back and let them do quite a bit for us too"? i'm just not so sure that'll work out the way we want it to. you want to go to war with mansa now/soon and make him a vassal and a friend again afterwards. then we settle a lot, while watching F8. meantime as efforts allow we go search for mystery-civ i figure huh? then when F8 looks good, bang on bismarck? oh i don't see the churchill ending there, we demolish him and settle his former territory before the F8/bismarck step?
one other thought: will watching the F8 give us an accurate count? i've had situations with 4 AI civs still alive, 3 are my vassals. the victory screen showed 4 rivals left, since in theory they could become free again. however i did vassalize the 4th and the game ended in a conquest victory that turn. this makes me not sure at all that the % of land area will show the right way. say we make mansa a vassal soon, going by my experience above i think his territory would not show on our F8 screen (under the theory that he may become free again someday). so we'd actually be a little bit higher than we could see. not a huge deal, just a random thought.
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