ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[Rancid Sushi]

A novice guess would be Priests and Engineers along with every damn mined hill you have.

I agree. Priests and engineers in production cities, scientists with caste system in cities that don't have much production anyway. Also, change those riverside cottages into farms.

 

[Agent Cooper]

First, though, if anyone can tell me how to get things built in a decent amount of time while running a SE, I'd really appreciate it.

It seems like we have a thing in commen - I've started experimenting with the SE myself in a couple of Alexander games and sofar, I get it together real weel regarding farms, scientists etc.... but then comes the time when I need units and building capacity and most of my cities suck at this, unless I shift civics and re-assign my specialists.

Which can be a big problem if you go to war a lot - the sciencerate plummets.

I've been advised to use the whip a lot more (and drafting later) to compensate production and I'll give it a try in my next Alexander-game. That still means changing civic from CS to Slavery though, so I'm curious how it will work out.

Or maybe I just plain suck at this....

In the last attempt I built a couple of high priority production cities to pump out military units all the time and that helps a lot - it's not enough though when you wage war for longer periods of time - you need the specialist cities to chip in. That's my experience sofar...

 

[Rancid Sushi]

it's not enough though when you wage war for longer periods of time - you need the specialist cities to chip in. That's my experience sofar...

Seems like the most simple solution to that is to accurately gauge your enemy's strength and build up a surplus of units of what you really need to wipe them out. This is what I usually do to avoid long wars if I can. Sisiutil's problem is that all of his cities are trying to be science cities which is impossible. He needs to switch to caste system, take scientists out of the cities that have good production tiles, and use the food-rich/production-poor cities to host more scientists to pick up the slack.

 

[vormuir]

Well, number one, you totally blew off Organized Religion -- didn't switch to it until late, then didn't have a religion. As you say, just shoot you.

OR gives you a 25% bonus on hammers for buildings in cities with your state religion. What have you been trying to build lately? Units? Wonders? Why no... buildings. Hmmm.

OR is expensive for a reason: because, if you leverage it right, it's an incredibly powerful civic.

It also looks like you were kinda slow iin getting Forges up and running. Dude: Forges give you 25% more hammers on *everything*. You know that. They should always be an early priority.

Forges and OR together = 50% more production. And of course, these bonuses work with Slavery.

Just sayin'.


Waldo

 

[vormuir]

Also: if you don't love Specialist Economies, and aren't good at playing them, why are you trying to run a SE with

1) A leader who isn't Philosophical, and
2) Without Pyramids for early Representation, and
3) Without the Parthenon, and
3) On a map whose distribution of food resources is such that you don't have a first-class GP farm?

Under these circumstances, is it really surprising that you're having a hard time with your SE?

Here's a thought: maybe you don't actually suck at playing a Specialist Economy. Maybe you just picked the wrong game to try it.


Waldo

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Also: if you don't love Specialist Economies, and aren't good at playing them, why are you trying to run a SE with

1) A leader who isn't Philosophical, and
2) Without Pyramids for early Representation, and
3) Without the Parthenon, and
3) On a map whose distribution of food resources is such that you don't have a first-class GP farm?

Under these circumstances, is it really surprising that you're having a hard time with your SE?

Here's a thought: maybe you don't actually suck at playing a Specialist Economy. Maybe you just picked the wrong game to try it.


Waldo

Very good point. I wish we had thought of that earlier. Sisiutil may have been able to scrap the SE and switch to CE. It's already the Medieval era so I'm not sure that's possible now though.

 

[sigmakan]

I would think its still possible. I think quite a few people make the transition between SE and CE sometime during the game.


Also, when running an SE I often find Caste System to be a complete waste. Really, the 2 scienstists per city will last you till education, and from there on out you'll be short on food before you are short on available scientists. Also, if you only run 2 scientists you can turn the rest of your land into cottages and mines etc. since you dont need to worry about getting more food.

Thats atleast what I've been doing recently when playing SE(although this is only on prince and with Peter and with Pyramids . . heh, guess thats a big difference eh?)

Anyway, the lightbulbing form of SE(as opposed to the settling form of SE) is less reliant on the mids, I would assume, so not having them shouldnt be too big of a problem.

 

[EEE_BOY]

indeed, u didn't show the true power of Cyrus. war early and constantly once u can afford those cities captured. in my experience, if i use Cyrus and playing CE, i build only barrack,garanry and courthouse in every city. if i can run science slider at 50% without red i will capture more city. if the WW rises up, its time to whip those building that u will take long time to build.
generally, the first war with immortals expands to six cities and finishes one civ. next war with axe + catapults finishes the second, then mace finishes the third, lightbulb chemstry gives you the whole continent and u will be in position of very early domination win.
too bad that the GK is now a real threat, he is pleased with HC and if u go after HC, do keep more garrisons in the border city northeast.

 

[aelf]

It comes down to city specialization. For an SE, you would want a super science city with lots of scientists and the Great Library. That city will account for a significant part of your research. Other cities will run scientists or engineers depending on your needs. Priests are a second-best alternative if you can't run any (more) engineers. And you must have one or two production cities dedicated to working mines. You can run scientists there when there's not much to build, but these cities will produce units and wonders for you. Ideally, you have at least two so that you can put the HE (plus Academy if possible) and West Point in one and Ironworks in the other.

Damn, I should have given myself this advice in the Frederick game I guess you lose sight of your objectives sometimes when you are playing your own game.

 

[cabert]

strange situation you're in.
Seeing that hyuna is your buddy, seeing that you could spread hinduism, seeing that GK is teching faster than HC, seeing that GK is huyna's friend, and seeing that beyond HC's land there is Isabella who hates you, I suggest :
- spreading hinduism
- converting to hinduism (can be done before spreading, for the diplo bonus)
- switching to theocracy
- closing borders with GK (you don't want HC trading resources with GK, although HC's faraway city may render this move useless, since you have open borders with HC)
- hitting GK (you may need to wait for the religious penalty to grow, making HC less unhappy that you attack a friend)
- keeping some defensive troops (at least a spear/pike + an archer) in border cities on HC's side

I think you won't be able to finish GK in one go, but your immortals upgraded to knights can help a lot.

 

[Jet]

Sisiutil, about the things you said you had trouble with, I suggest:
1. especially in this game, with this happy cap, work food tiles, grow, and be patient.
2. build fewer buildings and more units, but build Heroic Epic ASAP.
I played a shadow version of the last round to illustrate my advice.

Sisiutil 65 AD - 725 AD

settle Ivory city and Fishing village

Construction - Philo (lightbulb) - HBR (for CoL) - Theo (for MC+Lit) - MC - CS - Machinery - Feud (for Philo) - Paper (lightbulb) - working on Guilds

Persepolis size 7 -> 11: Forge, Monastery
Pasagarde: 5 -> 6: Granary, Forge, Stable
Goth 6 ->11: Granary, Forge, Barracks, (Market)
Beijing 7 ->11: Forge, Stable, Monastery, (Market)
Guangzhou 6 -> 7: Forge, Barracks
Shanghai 5 -> 9: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Susa 1 -> 3: Library, (Granary)
Ecbatana 0 -> 4: Barracks
Arbela 0 -> 1

12 worker, 14 Immortal, 1 Warrior, 3 Spear, 3 Axe, 1 Trireme
1 XBow, 1 LBow, 3 Elephant, 2 Cat

pop 63
110 commerce
100 beakers at +8 GPT
111 hammers per turn

GPP:
popped 2 scientists
Persepolis 15 + 17
Pasagardae 48 + 3
Goth 27 + 3
Beijing 366 + 6
Guangzhou 309 + 9
Shanghai 12 + 3

Jet 65 AD - 725 AD

settle Ivory city only (on a different tile; didn't need elephants right away)

MC - Construction - Philo (lightbulb) - HBR (for CoL) - Machinery - Engineering - CS - Paper (Lightbulb) - working on Nationalism

Persepolis size 7 -> 14: Forge, National Epic, (Market)
Pasagarde 5 -> 8: Granary
Goth 6 -> 13: Granary, Barracks
Beijing 7 -> 11: Monastery (completed), Forge, Heroic Epic
Guangzhou 6 -> 11: Barracks
Shanghai 5 -> 13: Granary, Barracks, Stable
Susa 1 -> 3: Library, Granary, (Barracks)
Ecbatana 0 -> 4: Library, Granary, Barracks

11 worker, 14 Immortal, 1 Warrior, 2 Spear, 2 Axe, 2 Sword, 1 Trireme
6 XBow, 2 Elephant, 5 Cat, 4 Treb
I built enough units to declare war, but I didn't do it because I was lazy and because it would have made the shadow less comparable.

pop 77
191 commerce
140 beakers at +8 GPT
78 hammers per turn

GPP:
popped 2 scientists
Persepolis 131 + 30
Guangzhou 231 + 6
Beijing 280 + 4
Goth 42 + 6

what I did:

Carefully stayed on higher food tiles, checking every turn. Many were cottages because I got Civil Service late. I deliberately worked cottages in the capital for Bureaucracy, but I think farms in the capital and Caste System would have been fine instead.

Built more units:
* Only 2 Forges: 1 in Heroic Epic city and 1 in Bureacracy + National Epic city
* Only 1 Market: low priority building in Bureaucracy + National Epic city
* Only 1 Stable (city specialization)
* Built Heroic Epic (with Marble!). HE should always be built promptly!
* Chopped a little more than you. My only deliberate chopping was Libraries in the new cities, for the culture. Otherwise I was clearing cottages and farms.
* I spent the first 5 - 10 turns whipping buildings, but after that I just grew.

Speaking of fewer buildings, I think Pasagardae and probably Shanghai and Beijing would have been better without the Libraries. If the map had had less commerce on it, then those cities might have needed to run scientists to get through Code of Laws etc, but as things turned out, they seem better growing and building units.

Specialists:
* built National Epic (no excuse not to build it if you have Marble!)
* kept 2 scientists in Pasagardae and Guangzhou.
* kept only 1 scientist in Beijing. Fired 1 scientist to leverage Heroic Epic better, but kept 1 scientist to get a return on the GPPs that had been invested so far. Switched him to an engineer when it looked like I wouldn't get the great scientist in time for Education.
* No specialists anywhere else except Goth (high food), and there, started them late. Grew first.

Didn't build monasteries (well, I finished the one in Beijing), trade for Theocracy, or switch to OR. Didn't try to make religion strategic.

 

[vormuir]

Well, what struck me was Sisiutl saying he sucks at the SE, then offhandedly mentioning "oh, BTW, Genghis built the Parthenon".

Yow.

Going out on a limb here -- Sisiutl, maybe the long gaps are affecting your play?

I don't mean to be presumptuous -- you're a much better player than I'll ever be. But I look at the last couple of rounds, and I'm all "wait, what?"


Waldo

 

[patagonia]

Also: if you don't love Specialist Economies, and aren't good at playing them, why are you trying to run a SE with

1) A leader who isn't Philosophical, and
2) Without Pyramids for early Representation, and
3) Without the Parthenon, and
3) On a map whose distribution of food resources is such that you don't have a first-class GP farm?

Under these circumstances, is it really surprising that you're having a hard time with your SE?

Here's a thought: maybe you don't actually suck at playing a Specialist Economy. Maybe you just picked the wrong game to try it.


Waldo

You don't need any of these to run an SE, it's a common misconception that you do. They make the SE better, just like being financial makes the CE better, but they're not necessities.

It can't be easy for S trying to play an economy type he's unfamiliar with in a public forum with a plethora of conflicting advice.

If you read Gryman's walkthrough thread, that illustrates very nicely how to combine strong production with an SE. Heroic Epic is a priority as you want one city configured for maximum production (farms, mines, workshops) to build units, units and more units. Elsewhere you want a mixture of farms and mines/workshops. Under caste system, run maximum scientists until you've got to your desired military tech, then configure cities to maximum production for a burst of military building before resuming maximum research again. 3-4 good cities can take care of your military needs, allowing the others to continue teching and GS generation.

I can't look at the save, but at a guess your main problems stem from:

1. Building too much infrastructure. You don't need more than a granary (to speed growth) in most of your cities for quite some time.
2. Not running caste system. Running an artist will get you a border pop in 5 turns in new cities; it also allows you to max out scientists elsewhere for faster GS production and quicker lightbulbing.
3. Researching the wrong techs. Machinery has opened up the optics/astronomy line for GS, which means you can no longer lightbulb liberalism directly. However, this isn't such a big deal as without caste system and/or pacifism normal research will probably get you there quicker anyway.

The main point of the sort of SE several of us have been advocating is to generate several GS as quickly as possible, stockpile them until you've opened up the tech path and then lightbulb through philosophy, paper, education (x2) and liberalism. That gets you the path of the tech tree focused on by most CEs for "free" allowing you to focus the beakers your specialists and commerce are generating elsewhere - often most effectively leveraged on music, nationalism and gunpowder allowing you to pick up military tradition as the free liberalism tech for a super-early cavalry rush.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Great post - Gryman's game answers some of the questions regarding the SE I couldn't figure out for myself.

Can't wait to have a go at it again... at prince level...

 

[King Nunu]

This is a bit of a noob question but here goes...I see Qin's name on the scorecard but I don't see him in the diplomatic relations screen. Does this mean that one of the other civs has made contact with him?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Qin got killed by Immortals early on... So I guess that counts as having made contact, yes.

 

[King Nunu]

oh dear, oh dear, demoted to court jester in less than five posts...

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well it's a long thread so you have an excuse. I looked through it for a bit to see exactly where Qin bit the big one but I don't think much had happened by page 12 so...

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, so not every city should run scientists. Good point.

I agree that Heroic Epic should be a priority. Which city would make the best HE city?

 

[patagonia]

Okay, so not every city should run scientists. Good point.

I agree that Heroic Epic should be a priority. Which city would make the best HE city?

It looks like your two cities with the best production potential are Beijing and Persepolis. Out of those two, I'd pick Beijing because:

1. Persepolis has the GLib, which makes it a good place for GS generation. If you build HE there, you'll risk unwanted artists.
2. Persepolis is currently the capital. Generally I favour having that as a secondary military city since the bureaucracy bonus means it builds units at an acceptable rate without HE. Putting the HE elsewhere gives two cities that can pump units, rather than having all your eggs in one basket.

Having said that, a few pages back Cabert suggested moving the capital to Goth due to its commerce potential, which would leverage bureaucracy more effectively long-term than the hammer boost in Persepolis. That would make Persepolis a more viable HE option, because it'll be near the middle of your empire allowing fresh units quick access to either border (and won't be at risk of having its mines pillaged if you get sneak-attacked). In that scenario, Beijing and Goth (thanks to bureaucracy) have the potential to act as secondary military cities.