ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[carl corey]

It could be a net problem. The pictures in your thread are probably already cached on your computer so you don't have a problem loading them, while these aren't. They work just fine for me.

 

[jerVL/kg]

I see that Izzy does have horses near her capital, but not a big deal as they can be eradicated soon enough and it means the worst that will be seen are Cavs and Conquistadors. So long as we have rifle support, no problemo.

Izzy doesn't have iron (unless she's trading with someone) so she doesn't have any conquistadors to mass upgrade. I doubt you'll see more than a single cavalry during the whole spanish invasion.

Sistine Chapel + Mercantilism + Free Speech is one hell of a cultural combo, it will give you a border pop in just 4 turns with only one free specialist! (In other words, you don't need to build culture anymore.) As for the GE...well, the builder in me would save him for the SoL or Wall Street (did HC ever build that Hindu shrine?) but at this point, lb'ing him for Steam would probably be the best short-term choice. Or combine him with the GG for another Golden Age...can you do that?

Also, can GG's lightbulb techs? I don't have Warlords so I have no idea.

 

[sneaky]

Unfortunately, I can't seem to see the pictures for half a day now, and it really detracts from the reading. They are not crosses or anything. I just see a few lines of space as if nothing is there. Anybody else experiencing this? What could be the problem? The screenshots in my own thread are fine.

I have had the same problem. The easy solution is to press quote, copy the img links in a new tab or window and change the numbers while you go through the text.

 

[aelf]

It could be a net problem. The pictures in your thread are probably already cached on your computer so you don't have a problem loading them, while these aren't. They work just fine for me.

But the other threads look fine, and those pictures certainly weren't in my cache. Hmm... odd. Broadband in this self-proclaimed 'IT hub' still sucks

 

[aelf]

I have had the same problem. The easy solution is to press quote, copy the img links in a new tab or window and change the numbers while you go through the text.

Good tip

 

[Kev]

Izzy doesn't have iron (unless she's trading with someone) so she doesn't have any conquistadors to mass upgrade. I doubt you'll see more than a single cavalry during the whole spanish invasion.


Also, can GG's lightbulb techs? I don't have Warlords so I have no idea.

Good point on the iron - though we were trading iron to Izzy for a while in an effort to help her against HC - don't know if that trade is still active or if it was nixed before or after Guilds... One can still upgrade from other mounted units to cavs, no?

GG's cannot lightbulb techs - though I know that there has been some discussion in the forums both pro and con for them to be able to do so. If nothing else, I think it would be cool if they could be one of the parts to usher in a golden age at least. Sure would be helpful in this case - back to back GA's with the Taj and two GP's....

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Unfortunately, I can't seem to see the pictures for half a day now, and it really detracts from the reading. They are not crosses or anything. I just see a few lines of space as if nothing is there. Anybody else experiencing this? What could be the problem? The screenshots in my own thread are fine.

Any chance that Sisiutil's naming convention is getting AdBlocked or otherwise stripped from the html before it arrives at your doorstep?

 

[Sisiutil]

What happened? For a while I thought you screwed up your specialist economy and are about to lose the game! How did you get yourself a stack of grandiers?

Advice? None, really. If I have no idea how you got to where you are, I really can't extrapolate. Weird.

This all started when I lost the Liberalism race. I partially lightbulbed techs with my next 2 Great People--both Great Scientists--and the 2nd tech was Chemistry, which I would have chosen from Liberalism had I won that race. So I was able to finish researching Chemistry reasonably quickly despite the lackluster SE implementation and losing out on Liberalism's free tech.

Once I had Chemistry I started producing lots of Grenadiers. Remember that I had several (nearly 20) cities and an extraordinarily large production capacity, all thanks to taking Mongolia's cities. So the Grens popped out rather quickly. Beijing in particular, with its high production and the HE, was able to produce a 7 XP Grenadier every 2 or 3 turns. And when I began warring against Huayna, the booty from every Incan city I captured allowed me to upgrade veteran Macemen (especially those with CR III) to Grenadiers.

I've made extensive use of Grenadiers before in other games, and I still consider them one of Civ IV's most underrated units. They are a better attacking unit than Riflemen in many respects, and they're easier to reach on the tech tree. Plus once you get Chemistry, Cannons are only one tech away. The main benefit of Riflemen is to be able to more effectively counter Cavalry, but with enough Cannons and a few Grenadiers with Combat II and Formation, you can deal with Cavalry.

 

[Porphyrius]

I've made extensive use of Grenadiers before in other games, and I still consider them one of Civ IV's most underrated units.

If you mean underrated by the AI you are quite lucky in your games. In my experience the AI aims for them first after muskets and uses them quite often. Of course he doesnt use or most any offensive unit effectively but thats another matter alltogether. Thankfully he doesnt rush for steel and canons with the same speed or consistency.

I'd aim for grens and canons in most any game as well, probably even when redcoats or cossaks are an option.

 

[EmperorFool]

GG's cannot lightbulb techs - though I know that there has been some discussion in the forums both pro and con for them to be able to do so.

That would be the ultimate in pointy-stick research. And if GGs prefered to lightbulb military techs, it would have a tremendous snowball effect. Charismatic would become the ultimate leader trait. Probably a good idea Firaxis chose not to enable that.

 

[Sisiutil]

If you mean underrated by the AI you are quite lucky in your games. In my experience the AI aims for them first after muskets and uses them quite often. Of course he doesnt use or most any offensive unit effectively but thats another matter alltogether. Thankfully he doesnt rush for steel and canons with the same speed or consistency.

I'd aim for grens and canons in most any game as well, probably even when redcoats or cossaks are an option.

I actually find many players underrate them--or at least they used to; in the last few months I've seen very few posts asking why anyone would use Grenadiers on the boards.

The AI does seem to obtain Chemistry quickly, but doesn't make effective use of Grenadiers. I see a lot of Grens with Shock promotions which have obviously been upgraded, for example; Shock is a pretty useless promotion once you get into the age of gunpowder--pinch is obviously much better. Sometimes I think the AI is programmed to go after Chemistry more for Frigates than Grens; the programmers at Firaxis regularly seemed to overestimate the importance of a navy in Civ IV.

That would be the ultimate in pointy-stick research. And if GGs prefered to lightbulb military techs, it would have a tremendous snowball effect. Charismatic would become the ultimate leader trait. Probably a good idea Firaxis chose not to enable that.

Don't you mean Imperialistic? In my opinion that trait could use a boost to make it more worthwhile, and increasing the utility of GGs might be just what the doctor ordered.

Frankly, once I have my first 3 GGs for a Medic III unit and 2 MIs in the HE city (so I can build West Point elsewhere), all other GGs are gravy--unlike other Great People, who can often be crucial right up to the end of the game. Look at me wondering how to use the latest GG in this game. Even the previous GG was not really necessary; my CR III Grenadier didn't need an attached Warlord to be effective, not with Cannons preceding his attacks. Don't get me wrong, GGs are lots of fun, but after the first 3 I think they become somewhat redundant.

So put me in the camp that would like to see GGs get the same capabilities as other Great People--lightbulbing techs and enabling Golden Ages in particular. Sid always said the game is about "a series of interesting choices"; this would just add a couple more "interesting choices" related to GGs, and I really don't think it would unbalance the game, but enhance it.

 

[EmperorFool]

Don't you mean Imperialistic? . . . So put me in the camp that would like to see GGs get the same capabilities as other Great People--lightbulbing techs and enabling Golden Ages in particular.

I always get those two backwards, thanks.

I agree GGs lightbulbing techs would make the game interesting, and it may work well. My concern is that having a GG lightbulb a tech greatly increases your ability to get another GG, and thus lightbulb another tech, and ... So it's self-reinforcing. Whereas lightbulbing a tech with the other great person types doesn't directly contribute to you getting another great person.

Of course, looking on the list of great people tech preferences, I see that indeed the regular great people will lightbulb the techs that produce another great person. But those are rare and don't snowball.

Regardless, it would probably be a fairly simple mod. Has anyone created it already? I just assumed Firaxis had play-tested it and disabled the feature, because all the necessary logic and data is in the game.

 

[Morgrad]

As far as making it as fast a win as possible, I agree with most of what was already said, with the emphasis of doing it all at the same time.

1. Take the deal with the Incans - Vassalize and all of the techs. Scientific Method is completely moot at this point, so who cares about it?

2. Declare and invade Izzy either right stinking now, or in 1-2 turns when your stacks are fully at her borders.

3. Use the GG for a second Medic III unit for your second anti-spanish stack.

4. Galleons with grens/cannon and another with a couple of settlers over to barb island ASAP.

Do it all at once and push for as fast a win as possible. It would literally be trivial to win this game even if you disbanded all of your units, declared war on Izzy, and then hit "next turn" for 20 turns, *then* started to build units again. You'd still win handily. The key now is to win as fast as possible.

Go get 'em - and good game. I gotta learn how to get stacks as big as yours as fast as you do..... I come close sometimes, but not as consistently.

 

[Tristam29]

I actually find many players underrate them--or at least they used to; in the last few months I've seen very few posts asking why anyone would use Grenadiers on the boards.

I completely agree with this. In my last two games, I have made more extensive use of them. Those games been some of my best, one of which was my first Monarch win.

Sometimes I think the AI is programmed to go after Chemistry more for Frigates than Grens; the programmers at Firaxis regularly seemed to overestimate the importance of a navy in Civ IV.

I agree with you from the gameplay standpoint, but I think historically, this is the right way to go. Many of the great civilizations were wildly successful as a result of their sea power, in no small part due to the economic advantages of being able to control the seas, which are way, way bigger than I ever thought they were. (I'm reading Alexander Hamilton now, which has enlightened me about this in a lot of ways.)

If I were to make a mod (and I haven't really used many mods on these forums, so maybe it's already out there), I would make trade routes more valuable and make water access to them much more important. I would also make navy power a factor in how much you got from your water-based trade routes.

Anyhow, I'm sure there are a few naval changes in the expansion. ;-)

 

[DoorMan]

I recently played a shadow game with Cyrus and got a total of 13 GGs. The 1st was used as a medic, 3 were attached to the HE city as MIs, one built an academy in the IW city, the rest were attached to obsolete units as warlords. Preferably to a leftover warrior/spearman/axeman, who then gets promoted to CR3 and can be upgraded for free all the way to mobile infantry. Alternatively promote an archer to Drill4 etc. Or maybe an immortal with combat3, blitz, one extra move (is that morale?) & leadership (extra experience) upgraded to gunship - 5 attacks per turn!

 

[cabert]

In my latest imperialistic game, I produced units with 22 XP right out of barracks. Could have been more, but I prefered a secondary military city, with a military academy + level 4 units too.

So my HE city churned out level 5 units (not charismatic) and my secondary military city churned out level 4 cities.
With charismatic it would have been level 6 for the primary, something I dod quite often (but then if you're not playing cyrus, you don't have a secondary military city).

Level 6 cavalries can all be commandos .

 

[Whitefire]

I go on vacation for a weekend and he updates 5 times.

Anyway, congratulations on pulling this one out. It seems you didn't fail at the SE as much as you thought you had.

 

[uncarved block]

First off, congrats on another handy win. Not sure I learned a lot about the SE, but then I've been too busy playing to watch this ALC very closely.

Grenadiers are rapidly becoming a favorite warring unit for me as well, but I can see why they aren't the first unit you'd settle on. For a long time, the AI was able to beat me to Cavalry by at least ten turns, which makes it harder to start a war when they have a chance to upgrade all those Horse Archers. Chemistry can also come in that recovery time after warring with Macemen, so in later games, once war got easier, I'd also typically be consolidating earlier gains in territory, and maybe just settling in for a Space race. That's why Civ4 has been better than Civ3, IMO-- stamina, the ability of the game to reveal another tactic or strategy as you master another part of the balancing act.

One wild thought as to the difficulty level: since the map will stay the same, and the difficulty should remain within reach of the more typical player, what about adding two (maybe three) more AIs at the start? The increased AI trading would ramp things up a bit, and more civs can lead to bigger enemies. Any more AIs and the starting locations start getting wonky, in my experience, and one extra AI is just a wrinkle. If you don't want the headaches with diplomacy, or want to remain consistent (until BtS comes out), I fully understand. The notion of increasing the difficulty popped up again, though, and this was one possibility that came to mind.

 

[Sisiutil]

I go on vacation for a weekend and he updates 5 times.

Anyway, congratulations on pulling this one out. It seems you didn't fail at the SE as much as you thought you had.

Well, I think what saved by butt was invading Mongolia. Almost constant warfare seems to be a vital part of the SE, or so I was told during the Frederick game, and I was in the most trouble in this game when I was being peaceful.

I finished the game last night; I'll post the update tonight.

Go get 'em - and good game. I gotta learn how to get stacks as big as yours as fast as you do..... I come close sometimes, but not as consistently.

I manage to do that through a number of mechanisms. City specialization is part of it; the best production cities get barracks as a priority, since they're capable of producing units quickly. Slavery also usually plays a part, though less so in this game, where I ran Caste System most of the time. I also check on and adjust the citizens' tile assignments frequently. I try to balance growth, commerce, and production most of the time, but if I'm building up for a war, I'll temporarily emphasize production at the cost of the other two.

Building the Heroic Epic in a good production city is also very helpful. As in this game, I often find that a former capital is very useful for that role. I know a lot of people tend to use captured capitals as GP farms, and I've done that too, but in this game military was more important than Great People. I never did get around to building the National Epic!

Food is sometimes overlooked as a factor. A good production city needs lots of food; a great production city needs even more. Hammer-rich tiles are low in food. You need to compensate by having other sources. You also need the city's population to grow in order to work all those hammer-rich tiles. Even if I'm running a CE, my best production cities get farms, not cottages, on most of their low-hammer tiles. Beijing was a terrific military city in this game because, as a former capital, it had several food-rich tiles.

I also tend to go through at least one queue-loading phase in each game. This accelerates unit production because for several turns prior to the civics switch and queued unit spawning, I'm focusing almost every city on building nothing but military units. And once the war is underway, I keep producing units. Only once the initial counter-attacks are over do I go back to civilian builds, and even then I tend to alternate those builds with military ones. You always need to leave units behind to heal or to garrison captured cities; you'll also lose some units. So your stack will dwindle and require reinforcements.

 

[Sisiutil]

One wild thought as to the difficulty level: since the map will stay the same, and the difficulty should remain within reach of the more typical player, what about adding two (maybe three) more AIs at the start? The increased AI trading would ramp things up a bit, and more civs can lead to bigger enemies. Any more AIs and the starting locations start getting wonky, in my experience, and one extra AI is just a wrinkle. If you don't want the headaches with diplomacy, or want to remain consistent (until BtS comes out), I fully understand. The notion of increasing the difficulty popped up again, though, and this was one possibility that came to mind.

Regarding difficulty level--I'm anticipating the imminent release of BtS (like everyone else). I think it's going to make Monarch feel like Emperor at first, what with all the new game elements as well as an improved AI. So I'm pretty determined to remain at Monarch level for the first few BtS matches.

That being said, I anticipate playing one more ALC game prior to BtS. This will be the Russia/Peter game. I'll consider throwing another wrinkle into it, but let's leave that for the pre-game thread.