ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[Bhruic]

Why not go for Writing before Bronze Working? Since you already have a strong, fast, cheap unit available after Wheel, you can hold off the barbs for some time with just Immortals. Writing will open up Libraries and allow you to get started on that SE (And pop an early GS in your high-food capital that will hopefully have 4 farmed tiles). After that, head to BW for slavery.

That seems a bit of a backwards way to go about it. By getting chopping/slavery after Writing, you're going to spend a lot of time slow-building the library. It'd be much faster to get Bronze Working first so that you already have chopping/slavery up when libraries come online.

As for the "stifling" option, the AI starts with Archers and Archery - unless you get really lucky with your Warrior, he's going to get plowed over, and the AI will descend on you. Even if they don't take your city(ies), they can make life difficult by pillaging your horses, preventing the Immortals. That would pretty much kill your game. I'm not sure that's worth it. Especially since you have such a good UU, as long as you can get it out. No point introducing any option that might delay them.

Bh

 

[Scaphism]

Same as the two above me - don't tip your hand, you will only make your enemy build more units and fewer improvements.
Of course we're jumping the gun - we have to find them first.

I still favor a scout as the initial build - he can be busy finding your second, third, and other future victims. Unless you pop a scout from a hut, in which case it's probably worker first. At worst an extra scout becomes a fogbuster in your backyard (not a frontier fogbuster). A fogbuster scout shouldn't have to fight, just make sure barbs aren't appearing. You could potentially build zero warriors if you get immortals quickly enough.

Techs: Animal Husbandry, then decide again. If you have horses in the capital, then the wheel for sure. If you don't, I'd argue mining next. You have great food, you also want those hills for production. You don't need roads to get 6F from grassland pigs nor 4H from plains hill mines.

I think writing is a ways off. You will want bronzeworking to whip settlers (with the +hammer bonus) and immortals and to know where enemy(and your own) copper is. Agriculture is also certain for the riverside corn, as is Mysticism for monuments. You definitely want the corn hooked up before the library so you can have extra food to run scientists (if that's how it plays out). And in that vein, you probably want a monument so you can get another tile worked early.

It's assuming a lot, but it looks like you're at a peninsula on the southern end of your landmass. If that's the case then the continent probably opens up to the N and NW beyond those 3 peaks. Sending a scout in both directions would be better than a warrior - I think you really do want to scout and recon - they are gathering intel for the Persian army.

 

[Whitefire]

That seems a bit of a backwards way to go about it. By getting chopping/slavery after Writing, you're going to spend a lot of time slow-building the library. It'd be much faster to get Bronze Working first so that you already have chopping/slavery up when libraries come online.

Personally, I would build warrior-worker-settler-worker-warrior(Immortal)-settler-Sonehenge in the capital. Second worker before the second military unit will be key IMO. Also, the capital has little by way of production (especially if we delay mining) so being worker and settler heavy in the capital will be more efficient. By the time Stonehenge is completed, you should have Bronze Working available to whip out the Library in the capital.

The surrounding cities should be building barracks and Immortals until we have a decent amount to fogbust and defend with. They won't be constructing expensive libraries until much later, probably when Bronze Working is finished.

So maybe a compromise by doing Mysticism third, then going for BW, then Writing? Mysticism should be third whether or we choose Stonehenge. Monuments need to be leveraged as much as possible.

 

[Sisiutil]

Don´t worker snatch with Cyrus. So scout first.

Doesn´t the AI build way more units when it is at war? You want your neighbours unprepared when 8-9 immortals descend on them.

I agree with this. Why on earth would you want to stiffle your nearest neighbor? Let him busily develop your (er, I mean his) land

Seriously, an early immortal rush is so fast developing, your first victim usually has no chance stiffled or not. Given that, it is much better not to stiffle...

GS

Sounds good, except that if you're going to go worker stealing, build a craplot of warriors.

Okay, so much for that idea, especially since building Warriors makes no sense when I have one of the best early UUs in the game at my disposal. This is why I (usually) do so well when playing the ALCs--the group mind catches things like the lack of synergy between Worker stealing and an ultra-early UU. Now with a late UU, Worker stealing makes more sense, but not in this case. Good catch, gang, and thanks!

Why not go for Writing before Bronze Working? Since you already have a strong, fast, cheap unit available after Wheel, you can hold off the barbs for some time with just Immortals. Writing will open up Libraries and allow you to get started on that SE (And pop an early GS in your high-food capital that will hopefully have 4 farmed tiles). After that, head to BW for slavery.

Also, Mysticism is a key tech for Charismatic leaders. Stonehenge would be a good wonder to nab after your second settler, which comes sooner than normal since you're Imperialistic.

To echo Bhruic, my main hesitation there is that Bronze Working also makes two vital game options available: chopping and slavery, both of which would accelerate the Immortal-powered war machine considerably, allowing me to get barracks and Immortals built even more quickly. Since I have Hunting it would also be swell to have Spearmen available for defense. Also, having Copper would give me more options if I wind up with the Zulus, Greeks, or Egyptians as neighbours. And as Scaphism pointed out, with a mounted UU it's good to know who else has Copper for Spearmen.

As for the "stifling" option, the AI starts with Archers and Archery - unless you get really lucky with your Warrior, he's going to get plowed over, and the AI will descend on you. Even if they don't take your city(ies), they can make life difficult by pillaging your horses, preventing the Immortals. That would pretty much kill your game. I'm not sure that's worth it. Especially since you have such a good UU, as long as you can get it out. No point introducing any option that might delay them.

As you see above, I've rejected Worker stealing and stifling for this game. However, in other matches, I've been able to use it very effectively, even when my capital has no defenders. A Warrior fortified on a forested hill, especially with Woodsman promotions, can stand up very well to Archers (though I'll be the first to admit that I absolutely never do this to Mansa Musa--countering stifling is probably the one thing AI-wielded Skirmishers are good at).

Often, my victim doesn't even know where my capital is located. By the time the AI shows up near my territory, enough turns have gone by that I can usually negotiate a peace accord. By then, the damage has been done.

Oh, BTW, Scaphism, Cyrus starts with Agriculture. However, I like your idea of Mining next rather than The Wheel if Horses require a 2nd city. I almost forgot about Imperialistic's hammer bonus for Settlers--thanks for the reminder. Mines would certainly be helpful in that regard.

 

[oyzar]

AH -> Wheel sounds obvious then prolly BW followed by either pottery or writing dependant on how you plan to get techs(i would say writing would be better for all out warmonger style and it does lead to a faster alphabet so you can extort techs).

 

[Hold The Onion]

i like earlier mining and chopping as well. Remember that half of your benefit of Imperialistic is cheaper settlers. Those are only doubled on hammers so mining and chopping will take advantage of this.

 

[Elkad]

(By the way, Morgrad, that's silk up there near the sheep, not sugar. Not sure if that affects the bestiality theme you had going there, but perhaps it's best not to spend too much time reflecting on that. )

sweet sheep, silky sheep, its still gotta be illegal

 

[Gr8scott]

I have played a few cyrus practice games, and the immortal rush is truly awesome to behold.

Here are some things to keep in mind when planning the early game:

-If things go according to plan, you will quickly have 4-6 immortals ready to roll the first opponent. Count on keeping at least the capital and likely one more city.

-If you have scouted well and are fast, you have a good shot and taking out a second opponent with this initial push.

-You will get a very early great general. How to best use this general will be very important. If the early rush still has lots of combat left, a medic 3 immortal is very very nice. If combat for round one is nearing an end, +2 exp or +50% military production is perhaps the right call. If I just had one, I would probably go for production bonus, but it will be a good debate.

-Ideally, the end of round 1 has you in possession of two other capitals and a couple other cities for a total of say 6-7 cities. Courthouses will be absolutely critical to get you over the hump to round two. With that in mind, I would create an early plan that had code of laws in the bag by the time combat round 1 ends. If stonehenge is in the cards, perhaps an early prophet for CoL? More immortals is probably better than stonehenge, but that is a separate discussion.

Anyway, the immortal rushes have been a blast, so already the ALC paying dividends. Thanks for all the work!

GS

 

[Scaphism]

Oh, BTW, Scaphism, Cyrus starts with Agriculture. However, I like your idea of Mining next rather than The Wheel if Horses require a 2nd city. I almost forgot about Imperialistic's hammer bonus for Settlers--thanks for the reminder. Mines would certainly be helpful in that regard.

I've had about one gaffe per thread - so hopefully I've gotten it out of the way early. I think the seed was planted it in my mind with the "Playing as Canada, Start with Hunting and Fishing" comment earlier.

Someone else mentioned the hammer bonus from whipping/chopping going into settlers in the Pre-Game thread, I can't take credit for that. But it's a good idea so it bears repeating.

The transition from working food and mines (immortal pump) to food and food (scientists) will hopefully go smoothly. At that point other cities should be able to carry more of the unit producing burden, hopefully cities situated closer to the front. And if there is a seafood resource to the East of the pigs, it could be a solid commerce city midgame. It would gain population very quickly and work commerce nearly the whole time. I know a lot of people are down on coastal cities because they don't get many cottages, but that overlooks the short-mid term benefit of a commerce city that requires almost 0 micormanaging (city builds and worker attention).

 

[Welnic]

...
-You will get a very early great general. How to best use this general will be very important. If the early rush still has lots of combat left, a medic 3 immortal is very very nice. If combat for round one is nearing an end, +2 exp or +50% military production is perhaps the right call. If I just had one, I would probably go for production bonus, but it will be a good debate.
...
GS

In 2.08 you can't build a military academy until you have discovered education. So you now have less of a dilemma.

 

[Neoclast]

I have had a lot of success lately with building the worker first then the warrior (or two, depending on city size) followed by the settler. I would vote this path because I think it would actually lead to quicker growth with getting the pigs and corn cultivated earlier.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

By coincidence I just played my first game with Cyrus [Monarch, Fractal, Standard]. The Immortals were great for an early rush on the Germans [my nearest neighbor]. The problem I faced was over expansion. Even tho I raised several of the early cities I captured, I couldn't bear to raze Berlin which was located quite a distance from my capital. After a pause to regroup, my second Immortal rush captured several more large German cities which I didn't raze. The result of all this was a science rate that went down to 10% and briefly 0%. I was running some scientists so my research continued, but slowly.

The lessons I draw from all this are: find your neighbors quickly, find who is closest and has the most juicy cities, don't found more than three cities of your own - two would be better. If you have no close neighbors, be wary of capturing very many cities. Cyrus has no useful economic traits so watch your economy carefully.

But the Immortals are awesome - pumped against both archers and axes. Do they get defensive bonuses? I assume not, but then few archers or axes are inclined to attack them.

 

[Ecofarm]

also to clarify I think Immortals replace Horse Archers, not Chariots (see pre-game thread).. I think the Egyptians have the UU for chariots. thanks for fixing that link by the way

Ecofarm: well, these games are marathon speed right? so maybe the window would not be that short and how is it any different than, say, iron for praetorians? I think the whole idea of the game is you have to fight/strategize for anything you want ...besides whatever happened to the idea of getting horses in a resource trade ... so I guess I'm in the camp of not knowing anything about the start, although I don't really care either way I just like to bicker like the rest of you

Imms are chars. I dunno about marathon; I play normal and quick. The "idea of the game" is different than the idea for the thread. I do not regenerate or enter world builder and consider it a "win". I have been known; however, to enter worldbuilder, see overwhelming power (as expected), create a few icbms etc, and whup ass. It was fun. And that is the idea of the game.

The idea of the thread is to illustrate leaders.

 

[Ecofarm]

Ecofarm that is not necisarrily true. I played a game where i managed to take out 3 opponents easy with imortals one who had settled his second city on copper, he only had one spearman though so after he attacked my imortal in the forest and actually lost(i was like huh did he attkack? and how come he lost? defencive bonus ftw). You should easily have time to rush someone with axes and then take out the next opponent with imortals.

on monarch level, maybe. with shock and/or nums np. you need cats for longbows.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Never deny yourself the pleasures of the whip....


Seriously - I think you definitely want to accelerate the Immortal "rush" to the best of your ability. Not to mention you'll need to know where the metals are for later use, even if you don't need them for the Immortals themselves.

 

[The Green Man]

I vote Scout - Worker - Settler for the build order. Scouts are much better than warriors early on, and an "extra" one (should you not need it for fogbusting) can be left near any distant neighbor you plan to open borders with to keep tabs on their expansion and development (and fully explore once the border is open). Camps may not often come into play early, but Hunting is still a worthwhile starting tech - scouts are an advantage.

For research: I think you should wait until you finish AH before worrying overly much about what will come after AH. If there are horses in your starting zone, the Wheel should come next. If instead you find there aren't any horses within easy distance, you'll almost certainly want to grab Bronze Working. Lastly, horses in range for an expansion city still might favor BW before the Wheel if it will help you a) get the settler out there sooner, and b) help you chop the barracks you'll likely want before starting Immortals anyway. In that case, you'll probably want to carefully consider the other territory your expansion city will have available, and count turns to see what will get you barracks-promoted Immortals sooner. It all depends on where the horses are - then think about what comes next.

 

[r_rolo1]

My (almost useless) advice:

Techs: AH, wheel, Mining, BW

Queue: Worker, warrior, Settler, ...

 

[Ecofarm]

get a grip people. we love the threads and we refer to what "we" should do with our settlers and such, but it is after all his game and he chooses to share it with us... he's talking mid-life crisis here; don't encourage him to go have a fling with some flashy young new game and abandon us

I've used the term "we" in a spoiler in an ALC thread (t'was strangely satisfying). New game? Let's see what crutch is pulled in BTS. ALC helps learn strat outside the liberal bulb. Without it, I would still be an isolationist in regard to tech/resource trades (does S check/plan for trades every turn!?).

 

[Ecofarm]

Woohoo, score one for the pigs. I was right about that.

Killroyan 1
Others 0

 

[Ecofarm]

My cyrus strat:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5205395#post5205395

2 notes on that strat:

1. make a 2nd medic asap, by dropping a GG on a newb and your monster(s), rinse/repeat. I'd rather have 3 medics (1 dead or useless and 1 backup) and 3 level 6 units (or one level 9) than settle 3 GGs.

2. do no keep a blitzing unit with the main force if he will defend against anything. 90+% only for them.

build warrior/scout/barracks till 4 pop, then whip settler and overflow to worker. probably warriors to 4 pop to defend cities. chop 2nd worker. chop immortals.

This is the char/imp leader. If ever you use super_troops instead of settling GG, this is it.