ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[cabert]

Really? Why claim only 2 resources when I can have 3?

Because the rush will be better if you start it 15 turns earlier. It's worth it and is classic Cyrus. 1W of the Horses is just fine. It's not like the city you'd get by settling on top of the horses - that would be a bad city.

bolded part is so totally true that I suggest 1SE of the horses.
2 resources, coastal + nearer to persepolis.
3rd city for the gold is urgent too (more so than the rush itself).

 

[Validator]

Wherever you choose to place the horse city, obviously be sure that it has enough with the lack of hills up there.

I think this makes a good point concerning early development that many are overlooking: while hooking up the horses fast is nice (and perhaps necessary for barb defense) the success of the immortal rush is likely going to depend more on how quickly you can produce immortals.

The capital has 3 hills that can be mined, but the area around the horses is unfortunately devoid of hills. That's one key reason in favor of settling 1N of the horses, as the marble quarry can be worked to provide a second high hammer tile for the city. (Of course this does mean that Masonry will have to be a priority tech, probably right after Mysticism.)

The problem I have with the coastal fish-corn-horse city is that it is very low on production. While some are saying that the food can be turned into hammers by whipping remember that Immortals are too cheap to be whipped for 2 population. That means that the best you can do is 3 hammers/turn while building them. With only the horse pasture available as a high hammer tile I don't know if that city can support a rush.

I'm not even sure how much long term potential that city has since its food surplus would get used up rather quickly once citizens are assigned to work all those plains tiles. In any case I think we'd have to hope that the immortals will "acquire" some cities with better long term potential.

For the same reasons I don't think any of the cities on or near the east coast working the silk and the horses will be able to meet the early production needs.

 

[Validator]

bolded part is so totally true that I suggest 1SE of the horses.
2 resources, coastal + nearer to persepolis.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to accomplish here. 1SE of the horses instead of 1N saves the settler one possibly two turns of movement before founding and it would save workers the need to road one tile to connect the two cities. But you end up with a city with no food resource to help it work low food tiles like the mined hill and horse pasture. How can that not affect its ability to build immortals, and isn't that going to hurt the rush even more than spending a couple of extra turns getting a better horse city?

 

[slaze]

1N of horses, you need them too quick. And it puts the Ghengis city at 1N of gems which works well.

Green city is also very good (good balance of food and production) but where bronze is takes precedent.

 

[slaze]

The capital has 3 hills that can be mined, but the area around the horses is unfortunately devoid of hills. That's one key reason in favor of settling 1N of the horses, as the marble quarry can be worked to provide a second high hammer tile for the city. (Of course this does mean that Masonry will have to be a priority tech, probably right after Mysticism.)

For the same reasons I don't think any of the cities on or near the east coast working the silk and the horses will be able to meet the early production needs.

Very good point.

next, green city is ok, considering your options. You'd have to start working the plains to get decent production but a plains forest here and there might help. Bronze would make it ideal

 

[CivSetä]

1SE of the horses instead of 1N saves the settler one possibly two turns of movement before founding and it would save workers the need to road one tile to connect the two cities. But you end up with a city with no food resource to help it work low food tiles like the mined hill and horse pasture. How can that not affect its ability to build immortals, and isn't that going to hurt the rush even more than spending a couple of extra turns getting a better horse city?

Horse location is far from ideal, there is not enough production anywhere near. Hence between silk and horses is least worse option. Actually production from horses and mine is enough, capital has enough production to produce enough immortals, and main purpose of second city is just to claim horses ASAP. Even if the second city couldn't produce any units to help early rush, it's still worth founding. If it can build 1-2 immortals for early rush, fine.

One point about rush: I suppose that China is first target; it's protective so you need more archers. And the capital has at least 40% defence. Normally I would go after capital with just 5-6 barbarian-promoted immortals, but in this case you might consider having 7-8 immortals. You have to scout his land before attack, hence I suggest going for writing next to sign OB. If his capital is on hills, you are on trouble. Consider building 15+ units then.

 

[cabert]

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to accomplish here. 1SE of the horses instead of 1N saves the settler one possibly two turns of movement before founding and it would save workers the need to road one tile to connect the two cities. But you end up with a city with no food resource to help it work low food tiles like the mined hill and horse pasture. How can that not affect its ability to build immortals, and isn't that going to hurt the rush even more than spending a couple of extra turns getting a better horse city?

Horse location is far from ideal, there is not enough production anywhere near. Hence between silk and horses is least worse option. Actually production from horses and mine is enough, capital has enough production to produce enough immortals, and main purpose of second city is just to claim horses ASAP. Even if the second city couldn't produce any units to help early rush, it's still worth founding. If it can build 1-2 immortals for early rush, fine.

One point about rush: I suppose that China is first target; it's protective so you need more archers. And the capital has at least 40% defence. Normally I would go after capital with just 5-6 barbarian-promoted immortals, but in this case you might consider having 7-8 immortals. You have to scout his land before attack, hence I suggest going for writing next to sign OB. If his capital is on hills, you are on trouble. Consider building 15+ units then.

civsetä said it already, but if I have to chose between bad and worse, I chose bad.
The silk is forested, thus a quite good hammer tile (no food tile necessary to feed him. How big do you expect the city to be before the rush?
If you grow to size 3, it's a lot. And there are 3 grassland forests to do this. Chopping them down is not a good idea right now, better wiat for pottery to at least have something to build there, later it could be chain irrigated. So I would leave the forests (some of them at least) until CS.

Don't worry, next city should be food and hammer rich (+ gold) to compensate.

 

[r_rolo1]

I would go for BlueSoxSWJ red city ( horses + silk ). Not a good site, but has a decent production for Immortalls production and doesn't kill finances. Of course that BW can change everything here...

 

[Chrispy]

Red could be settled now, getting horses, silk, and low distance costs. It would need a border pop, but then, so would the desert tile.

The purpose for Red's spot not being 1 more W is to allow blue - fish, corn, horses, 3 grassland, 5 coast, coastal. The rest of the land isn't great, but the can turn the food from the fish and corn into hammers. Meanwhile, the second border pop (if red isn't already there) would give you control of the peninsula, which might be a big advantage later.

Yellow could then be settled once you have iron working, to claim marble, gems, and dye.

As I mentioned, this is my first ever stab at dotmapping from scratch, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, obviously, things could change drastically with BW, IW, and further exploration.

I think you could settle Red one west and still settle blue. If you move Red one west, you trade 3 ocean and 2 coast for 2 peaks, 1 shared plains, 1 shared plains forest, and 1 grassland. You also preserve the grassland forest for immediate production and later chopping. I think those are still far enough apart to allow both cities to be settled and grow in time.

But most important, 1 west has horses immediately available. The Immortal rush should not be slowed by a border pop, especially when there isn't a resource to the east to capture.

I'd also move yellow 1 NE to capture the second dye, creating a commerce city with gems, 2 riverside dye, and 9 grasslands (5 riverside) for cottaging, but that won't happen for some time.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I believe it is obvious that Sisiutil is not trying to play cutthroat here with the most devastating immortal rush here, but rather to try to expand upon the traits of the leaders. Especially the much-maligned UB. Because honestly, immortals can be very brutal, even more so than legions, if horses and enemies are close.

What he could've done:

animal husbandary --> mining --> bronze --> wheel. Train a worker, then chopping a settler, settle 1E of the horses, than whip and chop both cities down to 1 pop. That'll be like 3 immortals and the warrior at his doorsteps before 1800BC, the Qin capital's third border pop. Don't even bother with barracks:

immortal: 4 * (1 base + 0.5 bonus) = 6 strength
archer: 3 * (1 base + 0.5 city + 0.25 fortify + 0.25 hill + 0.2 protective) = 6.6 strength, plus perhaps a first strike.

He might not even have 2 archers in his capital, if he just sent one out escorting a settler.

But I feel that's a really, very ruthless strategy to use. Cyrus was far from being that incredibly cruel. In fact, he was probably the most benevolent, wise and advanced ruler in the world at this time. BlueSoxSWJ's dotmap also, coincidentally, matched with mine exactly, taking a much more peaceful route.

 

[Fetch]

My only hesitation about 1N of horses is that you'd then have two cities 1 tile from the coast. And we all get when the AI settles like that so that we have to raze and rebuild. I guess here we're trading long-term and short-term: Getting the horses online ASAP vs. having better cities later. Here's my (first, be gentle) stab at a dotmap, taking a more long-term view:

Red could be settled now, getting horses, silk, and low distance costs. It would need a border pop, but then, so would the desert tile.

The purpose for Red's spot not being 1 more W is to allow blue - fish, corn, horses, 3 grassland, 5 coast, coastal. The rest of the land isn't great, but the can turn the food from the fish and corn into hammers. Meanwhile, the second border pop (if red isn't already there) would give you control of the peninsula, which might be a big advantage later.

Yellow could then be settled once you have iron working, to claim marble, gems, and dye.

As I mentioned, this is my first ever stab at dotmapping from scratch, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, obviously, things could change drastically with BW, IW, and further exploration.

Why not move Red 1W? you're still coastal thanks to the tile 1NW of the city site and you've got the horses immediately? You gain peaks, but lose ocean, I think. Also, you have a forest in the 1st border for chopping, instead of settling on it. This gives a barracks a boost for early rushing.

 

[cabert]

I believe it is obvious that Sisiutil is not trying to play cutthroat here with the most devastating immortal rush here, but rather to try to expand upon the traits of the leaders. Especially the much-maligned UB. Because honestly, immortals can be very brutal, even more so than legions, if horses and enemies are close.

What he could've done:

animal husbandary --> mining --> bronze --> wheel. Train a worker, then chopping a settler, settle 1E of the horses, than whip and chop both cities down to 1 pop. That'll be like 3 immortals and the warrior at his doorsteps before 1800BC, the Qin capital's third border pop. Don't even bother with barracks:

immortal: 4 * (1 base + 0.5 bonus) = 6 strength
archer: 3 * (1 base + 0.5 city + 0.25 fortify + 0.25 hill + 0.2 protective) = 6.6 strength, plus perhaps a first strike.

He might not even have 2 archers in his capital, if he just sent one out escorting a settler.

But I feel that's a really, very ruthless strategy to use. Cyrus was far from being that incredibly cruel. In fact, he was probably the most benevolent, wise and advanced ruler in the world at this time. BlueSoxSWJ's dotmap also, coincidentally, matched with mine exactly, taking a much more peaceful route.

too bad (the bolded part).
If I manage to play a shadow game, that's pretty close to what I would do except :
- settling 1 SE of the horse
- going AH, wheel, mining, BW
- no need to chop that much (only the settler should be chopped, because of imperialistic trait) + it costs worker turns (1 forest = 1 immortal, it takes 6 turns for 1 worker to chop 1 forest, you can have an immortal in the same time by working tiles). Better IMHO to improve the land. Whipping is OK (even down to size 1 although it costs a lot in the happiness department), though but BW comes late.
There are very high odds that qin builds a second or even third city before the rush happens, but it's a pretty strong move to get the capital first (avoiding more defenders).

 

[Fierabras]

Immortals are one of the most powerful UU's in Warlords, especially against those AI defensive archers. No need for long-term strategy thinking. Get horses, build Immortals, kill rivals and a new strategy will reveal itself. Forget about SE and CE, think WE (Warlords Economy).

I agree with Cabert's suggestion of settling 1 SE of the horse. Maybe settle sheep-gold on river if there is time to settle a third city, but two cities should be enough for an Immortal-rush. A captured capitol also makes a nice third city.

 

[Neoclast]

I wasn't going to post this dotmap but then I said what the hey. The reason I was going to post it is as even when I look at it I am a bit confused. However if you can keep in mind that there are 3 shades of green, but that just means the 3 locations for the second city. Then two shades of yellow for a city that may get displaced a little pending where the green city is. The red city is simple at least.

I am half expecting that the Qin will build a city between the capitols for us to take. He usually doesn't build in my face but will generally push torward me.

 

[cabert]

Immortals are one of the most powerful UU's in Warlords, especially against those AI defensive archers. No need for long-term strategy thinking. Get horses, build Immortals, kill rivals and a new strategy will reveal itself. Forget about SE and CE, think WE (Warlords Economy).

I agree with Cabert's suggestion of settling 1 SE of the horse. Maybe settle sheep-gold on river if there is time to settle a third city, but two cities should be enough for an Immortal-rush. A captured capitol also makes a nice third city.

I think settling gold sheep while pasturing/roading the horses (whip a settler!) is a really strong move, because we will need commerce very soon (distance maintenance).

 

[scooter]

Personally I'm for 1 SE of the horses, because getting horses immediately is the biggest priority (that could be 25 turns wasted waiting to build obelisk, get borders to pop, build road and pasture for horses, and connect to your capital), plus this gets you silk and a hill.

 

[Scaphism]

First of all, this map is great. I agree with Sisiutil that fractal provides maps that challenge us more.
There are a lot of good cities, it's really the horse site that's causing most of the turmoil because of all those plains, peaks, and lack of rivers. I'm thrilled to see so many good commerce sites - two gold and two gems already visible! The Gems-Dyes-River site to the north is especially juicy. Cyrus' lack of economic traits should not hurt much this game.

As for the all-important horse site, let me start with a question: Do you plan to go to war with only two cities or would you want to wait for three?

If you want to go to war ASAP(2 cities) then putting horses in the first ring is pretty much a must. A border pop requires 15 culture on Epic speed, that's 15 turns after the monument has been constructed, which is 45 hammers on its own. 30 of those hammers can come from chopping, which is 6 worker turns, the rest from working tiles - there are plenty of plains forests N of the horses for 1F2H, so that's another 5 turns. (2H+1H from the capital)

The worker starts (but doesn't finish) another task in the meantime, then builds a pasture the first turn possible, which takes another X turns (6 or 7 I think, I'm not sure).

The short version is that it delays the rush by ~25 turns.
That's enough time to get another (imperialistic) settler out and a barracks ready in the capital., but not enough time for another worker (3 cities with 1 worker).

Putting horses in the first ring should leave enough time to build a barracks and a second warrior to garrison your capital before horses are online.

After all that, I still don't know where I would put horse-city. If you build a third city, I'm not sure which site is the most compelling - you are likely to keep Beijing and if you delay there will be other sites to potentially keep as well.

1NW of the horses isn't terrible. It puts Horses and Corn in the first ring and gives you 3 or 4 riverside tiles. It looks like the fish can be picked up further west- near where your scout is now- it looks like there's Desert 2W1S of the fish.

If you decide to put Horses in the second ring, then either Horse-Silk-Sheep or Horse-Corn-Fish are good options. In the first ring I would put it either 1NW for Horse-Corn or 1SE for Horse-Silk. I prefer Horse-Corn slightly because the plains forests will provide more hammers for immortals early. Horse silk doesn't have many good tiles to work beyond the horses and the silk. 1N of horses isn't that good because you will still need a monument for a border pop to work the corn. Otherwise you are stuck working the plains river tile 1W of the horses.

I wouldn't worry about getting Marble this early - settling 2N of Marble (1E of Gems) is a tremendous spot: Marble and Gems for production, lots of riverside grassland (under jungle) with 2 Dyes and it's coastal.

Regardless, don't forget to park your immortals in the forest next to Beijing.

 

[Fierabras]

I think settling gold sheep while pasturing/roading the horses (whip a settler!) is a really strong move, because we will need commerce very soon (distance maintenance).

On second thought, I suspect this will not be needed because Qin will settle it. I have noticed that when you play on Monarch, the AI will always try to expand towards you (not sure this is default AI behaviour, but on Monarch the AI gets settlers sooner).

Settle 2nd city SE from horses and pre-road while building settler. This means after the worker has finished the corn, build a road on top and next a road on the desert tile (direction to Qin!) and then a road on the horses. Use the warrior to protect the worker. If I am not mistaken, you can start the pasture soon after settling the second city (about 2 turns after finishing last road). Build a warrior in both cities (for defending future captured cities) until the horses come online.

After this return the worker to the capital and build a mine on the grassland hill and start churning out 5 immortals. You won't need much whipping this way and you will be ready for war as soon as possible.

 

[gallego]

So a later city will likely be founded at some point 1 south of the Scout's position in that screen shot, something that would not have been possible if I'd taken the starting position. Oh, I would have eventually been able to work the crabs, but not feed a city with them, which would have been a shame. Sometimes it pays to move around.

You are going to overlap 6 tiles with your capital?

 

[Rycheman]

One north of the horses gets my vote.No border pop needed,cuts off Khan and claims marble.I wouldn't worry about further city placements as you'll be too busy building Immortals ,not settlers.Just let Qin build them for you.

Qin should be your first target just because of the pain-in-the-butt protective trait.