ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[Hero]

People seem to be pretty optimistic about taking out HC. Have you noticed he has Ivory hooked up and has Maths? For all we know, he may have War Elephants already, or at least soon. Immortals won't be of much use then.

 

[r_rolo1]

with futurehermit

But only if you can avoid a full contact war. You have a nice size pre-CoL empire and adding more cities to it now could be devastating. to the .

Kill Qin, attack Capac ,raze the cooper city and pillage like there's no tomorrow. That would cripple Capac and would give you time to develop your recently adquired cities. Then Genghis....

 

[CivSetä]

Nice game so far!

In my opinion the Battle of Beijing was a gamble, but at least it ended like it should be. I would have attacked with 12-15 units just to make sure.

There is one thing I'd like to mention: build also other units ASAP! Your immortals are helpless against swords or keshiks, and you might face them if AIs want to have some fun.

 

[futurehermit]

In my experience, the AI tends to delay construction on monarch level. However, you will have math soon yourself anyway and can see if he has construction. If not, hit him hard and fast starting with the metal city and then raze/pillage to your heart's content.

As for other units, I wouldn't go crazy because they cost maintenance, but a couple axes/spears wouldn't hurt. You can always whip if say Genghis declares or something like that. But I don't expect him to as long as you give in to his demands and build relations with him. He has his own land (i.e., your future land) to develop.

People are worried about Genghis late, but I wouldn't worry. Once you spring past him in tech with the liberalism launch you can steamroll him.

 

[Scaphism]

Hmmm... Rorschach ink blot time. Does the continent look like a duck to anyone else, or is it just me? And does that mean my mother didn't give me enough attention when I was a child?

I can see the duck when you mention it, but it looks like Homer Simpson (lying down) to me.

I would not trade for the cheapie techs. If Qin is willing to give up Mathematics I might take it, but maybe not. I'm in favor of finishing him and razing the city.

I like to throw flanking units first as well. Flanking 2 gets immunity to first strikes, which makes them aces versus archers.

I know you are really fond of using the first GG as a MASH unit, but I think I would have used him for +2 experience (a full promotion for Charismatic) instead. Granted you don't have a MASH unit ready for the second war, whenever that happens, but all of the units you send will have 2 promotions, which means more victories and fewer casualties, which also allows your stack to move more quickly. You can still use a Medic 1 or even get him to Medic 2 with the stack, and when your second GG arrives split him between 2 units for a Medic 3 and an offensive-minded GG.

As for future wars: I'd settle back briefly after Qin is finished. Let Isabella and Huanya get their great prophets and build their shrines.

--------------
I started my own Cyrus game last night, Epic, Fractal, Monarch, it was an interesting story but to not threadjack too much it's in spoilers below for those who care to read it.

Spoiler :

I started with 4 coastal seafood resources, a freshwater lake, and 3 grassland hills and some grassland. I had to move on the first turn to get more hills and the freshwater lake, but it was a terrific site. Had a hut next to my initial scout, waited until the capital was founded to pop it...for Animal Husbandry. Oh boy, amazing start. I had horses south of the capital, a coastal spot with Horses and Wheat. Then a somewhat food-poor site with Cows, Copper, Elephants, and Marble to my West for the third city, cranked out the Immortals to conquer everything I saw and...I was isolated. What a bummer. I played through til Democracy though, and caught up in tech through some pretty good trading, so I'm sure the ALC crowd could handle some isolated starts using a leader without economic traits.

 

[futurehermit]

Best use of the 1st GG is a MASH unit, hands down. A medic 3 really keeps your stack on the move. Future ones should be settled of course for charismatic leaders.

 

[Kev]

The immortals are certainly proving their early worth, and I will join the chorus regarding their continued use in other theaters. HC can be a great trading partner, but more often he's TOO good - more apt to take off with techs leaving you with nothing to offer eventually. Given that, and his proximity, a campaign to weaken could be beneficial - if there is an inexpensive way to bring Izzy from the other side of things, then more the merrier. When you are ready to fully dispose of HC, the holy city will be nice to have!

Still, with immortals doing what they do, it is still time to start mixing forces. Axes, spears and swords are going to be needed - especially as a deterrent to the north with Genghis. Later elephants and catapults of course. If you could find a way to get a shared religion, you can likely tech trade with GK for a while and you probably won't have to fear his running away with a huge tech lead before you decide to take him on. Probably better to take him on after his UU is past its use anyhow.

 

[futurehermit]

Gift a tech to Genghis to get +4, open borders, and give in to his demands. Supply him with resources. Bribe him into attacking HC.

 

[Heffling]

My opinion:

An important decision needs to be made soon: Do we continue the war (which is what most propose) or do we settle down for now?

Given that your UU is still viable and you have the opportunity to take down HC a peg by taking his only source of metal, I would look at stomping his copper city into the dust and taking it (not razing, so he can't rebuild).

As for Qin, If you can get maths, I would definately make peace. If the "Motherland" happyness penalty isn't bad, I would leave him around as he's never going to be in a position to surpass you on the power graph, and will thus be the primary target if Ghengis decides to pick on someone. Of course, if you're planning on maintaining a larger military than HC and Isabella, then you can go ahead and conquer him. He could also be viable as a vassal down the road if you think the happyness gain would offset the diplomatic penalties and loss of a city.

For now your priority should be to shoot for Code of Laws to get Courthouses and unlock Civil Services. This should hold true for either a SE or CE. If you get Mathematics from Qin, then I would go for Currency first, as the trade routes will help your economy immediately. And, you obviously aren't concerned with founding Confusiousism (sp?), since you wanna adopt a neighbor's religion.

CoL is VERY important for an SE, as it allows you to run Caste System. Thus, you won't need libraries (although they will help). And it unlocks Philosophy for Pacifism.

Your flanking Immortals can be very useful against HC's spearmen, if he has any. These can cause some wounds before hopefully retreating, thus acting as the poor man's catapult. Given HC's trait combo, I would have to make him a priority.

 

[LlamaCat]

I agree you should try to make peace with Qin. I played more turns in my shadow game and easily took out his border cities but then got bogged down trying to reach Bejing and can't seem to take it. Although by then I noticed he had built the Pyramids there so it now would be a tasty prize! Interesting to see how you played it the other way around and I think overall it was the better approach.
I think it's time to lay off the Immortals, these units seem to be obsolete already. I was hooking up that iron and building some swordsmen already...the only problem was it takes them forever to reach Qin's capital.
I think you made great use of these units for the their short glory days...

 

[Melon Head]

Honestly, I'd finish off Qin and then stop expanding for a while. Yeah, it means you'll miss out on a second war with Immortals. That's okay though. Early UUs tend to only get one chance to shine; your first war. Your economy isn't strong enough at the moment to justify a second war, and I don't see that the benefit of stifling HC would outweigh the potential diplomatic consequences. Maybe the pillage gold would be good...but really I don't think it's a good idea. You need some economic development, badly. You're losing 34 gold at 100%, if I remember correctly, and you need to get gold mines up quickly.

 

[Sisiutil]

medic 3 mounted unit is good. march promotion on there, wellllllll, ummmmm, i'll just say this: my medic 3s are not allowed to fight, ever, EVER. well maaaaaaaybe if i want them to get sentry or morale. but that's it, and that's only if i'm sure they will win that fight. fighting anything not already 90% dead is against the rules for them, since they have a higher calling in life. so if mine have any reason whatsoever to use march, they are soooooo grounded when they get home. that should probably give you some slight idea how i consider that promotion *giggle*. i heard a rumor canada has a totally different healthcare system than the US, maybe that's part of the difference in our styles.

That's not it. My M*A*S*H unit marches with the stack. As a result, it periodically gets hit by collateral damage counter-attacks. When that happens, I don't like having to leave the Medic III unit sitting around healing, I want it to keep moving with the healthy units in the stack (Once I have a large enough stack, I often have a 2nd Medic I that I leave behind in a recently-captured city to heal the wounded). Hence the March promotion to keep the M*A*S*H unit on the move.

edit: from your latest post "Should I immediately go after either Huayna or Genghis once Qin is finished? Or even before then? I'm in no shape economically to capture and keep cities. I'd have to restrict my activities to weakening a competitor--razing cities and pillaging tiles. In which case, Qin would probably be the more logical target. He's usually a tech threat, so stifling him could be advantageous. Or should I let him tech up for trading? "

that last Qin isn't supposed to be Qin. is it supposed to be Huayna?

Correct. Good catch.

the more i ponder who we actually have as potential trading partners, the better qin's pathetic offer actually looks . but, that's if you really think you need peace. if you need peace, then get something with the bargain. don't make peace just to get techs, since HC isn't going to be thrilled when you declare again, and you already have GK on the other side who isn't thrilled about having nowhere left to go. i don't think you do need peace right now, but i haven't looked at the save and wouldn't be the best judge even if i had *giggle*.

A good point. I don't think I need peace, but getting Maths would be worth 10 turns where I could build several Flanking Immortals to finish Qin off.

Only take peace if you can get math. If not, just finish him off and trade for math with HC. I usually always avoid self-researching IW because, as you can see the AI always researchs it. I normally trade alpha for IW and math, which I believe is pretty standard practice.

I see everyone's point regarding IW. I'm also playing an off-line game as Rome, which may have contributed to my lust for iron. I like the idea of getting Math from Qin or he's dead. That's the way I'll play it. I also like the idea of attacking Huayna next. As KMad said, yes, he's a good tech trading partner, but like Mansa, often too good if left alone, quickly out-teching you. I think it's better to smack him down ASAP. In fact, if I get math for peace from Qin, I may just turn right around and attack Huayna in a raze and pillage fest.

 

[rabidveggie]

You deffinitly need more cottages or gold mines or your large army will soon disappear. I've never personally used Cyrus so I'm not sure how good they are however, after a war I like to push the offensive soon after I hit code of law and stabilize my economy. It would probably be better in your case to take some time to get construction and diversify your military so that a spearmen can't wreck your entire stack. You also seemed to get really lucky against Beijing as one time Quin mauled a stack of eight praetorians with three archers and took didly losses.

 

[Gr8scott]

Immortals during their time are awesome for two reasons. First they can actually pry archers out of capitols. Second, they can pillage with impunity. You have illustrated the first now I think it is time to illustrate the second.

IMO Huayna will get dangerously close to running away with things if left alone. I would have as a goal 2-4 "pillaging groups" that consist of an axe and two immortals. I would position these groups at different places general areas around Huayna and then declare. If you quickly pillage the metals (ivory too if worried about elephants), then you really put the hurt on Huayna (I like the sound of that $$).

The pillaged gold can also be useful during your transition to a more modern (courthouse + SE or CE) civilization.

GS

 

[lukep]

definitely not cottages yet. farms and PE are what you need here.

I really think Cirrus need to be played as in an always war variant, till immortals power fade (longbow time). then you can go CE

 

[Kev]

With regard to religion, I would not declare a religion right now for reasons even beyond the fact that we cannot make use of any of the state religion civics. I think the only choice now is to go Hinduism, and if the intention is to we at war with HC while pillaging/razing then there will be the extra unhappiness based on warring with brothers/sisters of the same faith (same would hold true with regard to Qin).

Further, I'm wondering if GK might actually move forward enough to found Christianity. He has Stonehenge, and with Izzy in a bad state of land and HC being kept down it might not be out of the realm - depends on the other civs that might be out there, of course. Does the AI make good use of lightbulbing, or would it be more apt to settle a prophet this early? Would Genghis be more apt to shoot for Theology as a warring leader? Whatever the case, roads connecting GK should be made so we can get him a religion of some sort and switch to his until we don't need to have him around any longer.

 

[futurehermit]

You should support your economy in the short-term with a raze-and-pillage fest of HC. Also, lay down farms and get ready to run scientists.

Immortals are certainly NOT obselete yet. I would place big money on HC not having construction yet and you can deny him copper and then pillage his iron and ivory. Then pillage and raze to your heart's content. There is no way the immortals are obselete. They're cheap, much cheaper than swords, and you can do a lot of damage with them still. You can build up a good chunk of change razing and pillaging.

Don't worry about cottages unless you have a long-term goal of shooting for a space race.

But honestly, whenever I'm on a continent with 5 civs, space race is not even a blip on my radar as domination is what it's all about.

Here's how I would do it:

Step 1) Raze and pillage HC while using GSs to zip toward liberalism and nationalism. Tech to cavalry.

Step 2) Use cavalry to finish HC (after suing for peace at some point earlier on) and then Issy or Genghis depending on who is closer to rifles. Then finish off the remaining AI, getting grens just in case rifles show up.

If necessary: Step 3) Add astronomy to go overseas for the remaining land/pop you need for domination win.

 

[PublicEnemy]

Damn, I can't believe I missed the start of this new game.
I've been having to WORK. I told my boss that I needed to play Civ, but he wouldn't have it, he said something about doing what I get paid for.
Obviously it wasn't worth arguing with someone that unreasonable, so I actually had to get some work done.

Anyway, I've just looked through the thread and you've done a good job on taking Qin's land (Chinese Takeaway), sweet and sour (sweet for you sour for Qin).

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Take Mathematics from QSH. Trade it for all the other crap -- including the CoL pre-Reqs. Research Currency.

You can't afford to keep that city, but even more so can you not afford to have it re-founded by HC. Those two gold mines are pretty but not pretty enough to be an impetus to the next war.


-- my 2c

 

[shyuhe]

has the oracle been built in your game yet? I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any of your logs. If a civ with monarchy finishes the oracle, you'll see mass upgrades to LB = no more immortal rush. Something to keep in mind...

I would also suggest considering a pillaging war against Khan as well - he has one source of iron and one copper - if you pillage those, you can send him into the stone age pretty easily. Then again, you can do the same to Huayna too...

And remember, Izzy makes a great attack dog. Once you get to techs in the COL beaker range, she'll be begging to attack someone.