ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[lukep]

Sisiutil, i really think you declared the immortals done too early.

Scortched earth strategy would have worked wonders again Huayna, i can insure you that. And if he had used his spears, as long you have stacks of at least 4 immortals, he would have lost them quickly. Cut first his metals and you are safe

But as others pointed, you used the flankings ones backward. Send first the lvl II especialy against archers. Also, you really want to have more combat proms ones.

some things to remember :

- flanking works only on attack, so flanking promoted are weak on defense
- Cirrus units promote quickly, immortals have high survival rate, so you end with many lvl 5 or more units.
- a warlord immortal with all the flanking proms has 70% chances of retreat.
Use him wisely, you end with a Combat VI/Comando in the BC years (that's a base 7 unit with bonus against 2 of the most common oponents).
- immortals are cheap and fast so remplacing them is not much of a problem
- immortals promote to cav, and lvl 5 cavs are scary. It is worthwhile to beeline to MT/gunpowder.

Now, you played well the last round, but you are not using your very nice UU to the fullest.

I used immortals with succes until the longbows appears, and even them can be taken by a high prom one.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, lukep, I anticipate getting more use out of the Immortals yet. I'm leaning towards starting a pillaging war versus Huayna, and the Immortals will have a role to play there. Rather than a usual pillaging stack of 1 Spear, 1 Axe, and 1 Chariot, I think it would make sense to throw 2 or 3 Immortals into that mix and attack some of the counter units Huayna throws at me.

Ridding Huayna of metals will be challenging because he built one city right on top of copper. The iron is relatively easy to pillage in comparison. But I'll need to raze that Incan copper city to completely deprive him of counter units.

 

[r_rolo1]

I was wondering about the iminent GS. How about change research for Col and ligthbulb Philo? I know that Pacifism and Immortals don't team well, but the +100% GPP generation would help a lot. And the taoist missionary could be used to convert GK, which would help to break his friendship with HC

About GK and HC, how about try to send both of them after Izzy? None of them is very keen of her, and it could give you time to develop. The four civ on your continent have now roughly the same power, so probably it wouldn't much more than a atrition war for GK and HC, a good way to destroy their units while you put your house in order

 

[jerVL/kg]

Immortals are not finished, although it's true they will be relegated to backup duty from now on. They can still make great pillagers if you protect them with an axeman.

I think it was a mistake to break off trade with Izzy, it makes little sense to accede to a neighbor you're planning to wipe out anyway. And now that Izzy won't talk to you anymore your diplomatic/trading options are much more limited.

It's probably time for you to declare a religion -- Hinduism, perhaps? Well, looking at the map again it looks like your only choice. (Strange how religion doesn't seem to be spreading to your cities very well...) Finish currency (you need it way too badly to take a chance on trading for it) then start on metal casting, or whatever looks good at the time. I would go with deficit research for awhile -- troop upgrades will be nice, but you need horseback riding to even consider that. Use the GS to build an academy -- Compass isn't worth it, since all you can get is Monarchy for it.

I strongly suggest that you found that 2-gold/iron/cow city right away, DO NOT WAIT for your economy to get better, the AI will settle there very soon, if they haven't already. (You do NOT want HC to get those gold mines!!!)

My play would be to buddy up with HC, switch to his religion and hereditery rule (when you can), try and get him up to Friendly and you can trade monopoly techs with him, plus his WFYABTA limit will go down. Instead of attacking Genghis, wait for him to attack you instead, that will prevent earning another diplomatic demerit from HC.

 

[gallego]

Use the gold surplus for research; it will buy you precious turns, whereas it would only upgrade a couple of units.

Found the city with the two gold mines. It will pay for itself very shortly and you can't run the risk of losing the site to someone else. More gold will also allow you to sell some of it off for GPT.

 

[G0JIRA]

If we didn't know better about the abilities of the AI, it would look like Huayna had the same idea about joining Genghis against you as you had about teaming with Izzy against Huayna, very interesting, hmmm...
By the way, this is only my second post here, but I've been reading the boards for a while and I've been playing since 8bit graphics, hehe.
These threads are great, keep it brutal Sisiutil!

 

[kniteowl]

I personally vote against researching MC, either go for Drama or COLs.

Drama becuase it activates your culture silder with will beneift your specialist economy and it opens up Philosophy for your GS to lightbulb.

COLs, it allows you to cut down your maintenance with courthouses and also opens up Philosophy and also the important key tech CS.

Both tech can be used as trade folder, especially Drama, the AI usually ignore it.

COLs can also be traded, The AI Won't trade a new tech unless 2 more known Civs know that Tech (including itself), Isa won't trade it to the Inca's becuase of Religious Differences and Khan probly has nothing of worth to trade to Isa because he going backwards so I'd persoanlly risk COLs.

On the GS, don't lighbulb Compass it's a wasted lightbulb, save him for Philosophy, if you know you'll get your 2nd GS before you fin Drama or COLs then use that GS for an Academy in your GL city or you can save him for Paper after CS, both are good options.

Also Build a Market in all your Cities, especially your GL City to assign Merchants for a GM and save a couple of them to lightbulb Constitution, once you pick up nationalism as a free tech with Liberalism. remember to ignore Guilds or the GM wil lightbulb banking. There's also the Short term benefit of a trade mission if you want to continue your wars longer.

 

[patagonia]

You're going for an SE? Yay!

Just one thing - you're not implementing it as well as you could be right now. I think this is a stage of the game where many people lose focus when it comes to an SE.

A few pointers:

1. Found some more cities. Double-gold will be nice for commerce and is worth picking up before Huayna starts to look at expanding your way again.
2. The barb fishing village you razed should have been kept. That could have whipped a library and run a couple of scientists for you quickly enough - now you'll need another settler to reclaim the tile.
3. Also, whip a settler out and go claim one of those spare jumbo tiles near Incaland. That's +1 happy right away, plus war Elephants. Economy be damned, it's a move worth making. Pachyderms also upgrade to cavalry cheaper than Immortals do (see below).
4. You're thinking about the slider all wrong in terms of expansion. If you're planning on getting the bulk of your beakers from scientists, you can afford to tank it right down while expanding. Of course, being able to run scientists and get lots of beakers from commerce is nice too, but you vetoed cities you could have "afforded" in an SE.
5. Currency isn't going to do as much for you as HR (from monarchy) and Caste System (from CoL) will, plus it's a tech the Incan has so unless Genghis gets HR in a timely manner, trade value will be zero. HR for happy and more-importantly CoL for caste system will allow your cities to hire more scientists resulting in more research and more GS, which is what we're hoping for longer-term.
6. In terms of improvements, all most cities need is a granary and a library (even the library is optional once you're running Caste System, but it's worth getting them eventually). Courthouses will help, but you don't need much else in terms of infrastructure at the moment, which will allow you to focus on catapults in most places once you've teched to construction.

You've got two important decisions to make diplomatically and strategically. The first is who to befriend out of Temujin and Capac, the second is what to target your lightbulbing towards.

Diplomatically, you can get the Incan up to "Friendly" relatively quickly. Swapping to Hinduism and running HR (both of which offer benefits) plus the odd tech trade will shore up that border until you're ready to later in the game. Don't worry about him being a bit of a tech monster, by the time you've annexed Mongolia you'll have about 3x as much land as him so he'll crumble quickly enough. That leaves Temujin as public enemy #1 (in terms of future expansion), which is convenient as he's got lots of land, is a bit backwards, and you've only got one city bordering his empire making it easy to defend against counterattacks. I'd be inclined to aim to hit him with a cat/pachyderm/immortal army (Immortals are good for mopping up wounded longbows so you'll get more mileage out of them yet) in the early middle ages and then finish him off a bit further down the line. You know he'll attack at some point unless you bribe him into a war yourself, so you may as well strike first.

In terms of bulbing, don't fall into the trap of thinking you've got to use your GS as soon as they appear. I'd save GS1 until philosophy's open, not so much for the religion (generating a prophet for the shrine will be a pain), but for the pacifist/hindu boost to GPP you can pick up. That's worth paying more in unit costs for, especially as a non-philosophical leader with the GLib. After that, the paper/education/liberalism line is attractive, with a view to picking up something like Military Tradition if possible. You can bulb paper, education (2 GS) and liberalism directly provided you don't know machinery when you burn the GS on liberalism (don't worry, he won't give you all of it), which leaves you to research gunpowder, music and nationalism yourself once CS is in. Cavs will make short work of whatever medieval units Temujin's fielding at the time and with the north secured you can turn your attention west (by bulbing printing press and chemistry, you can actually pop your first 7GS for useful techs - you have to pop printing press to open up chemistry unfortunately).

Right now, Beijing looks like the best bet for an HE city so I'd get started on that there. It's a long way from Mongolia, but perfectly situated for a later war.

==========

Goals for the next set:

1. Found 3 more cities: Jumboville, Doublegold and Fishburg.
2. Adopt Hinduism and spread it around, especially to Persepolis and Goth (it looks like they can support the most caste system scientists).
3. Get CoL and switch to caste system (think about any last-minute whipping).
4. Lightbulb philosophy and adopt pacifism. The quicker you can get GS5 born, the quicker you can beeline cavalry.
5. Build cats/phants and mass an invasion force in Goth ready to venture into Mongolia (using Beijing as an HE city and working lots of mines there will help).

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Interesting how you built the GL in your capital instead of your third city like I always do. Is it because the capital had a lot of forests to chop? I guess it would be better if the capital city was the first science city and the third city is GM farm/commerce city. Maybe I should rethink my old habits are start using this approach whenever I try a SE. I learn something new from all your games.

 

[Validator]

You have OB with your 2 potential victims but you didn't scout out their territories. Both Huayna and Genghis have cities that have not been revealed. Also it might be somewhat helpful to know what type of defenses the cities have before deciding who to attack.

Also related to military, when do you plan to research Construction? CoL and Monarchy would provide economic benefits, but at some point you need to start building a force of cats.

If you're concerned about the double gold-cow city hurting your economy but also don't want to lose that spot to one of the AIs what you can do is build a settler and send it to that spot and then use your immortals to fogbust around it and also watch for any approaching AI settlers.

One thing about this city if it's founded 2E of Xian is it will need a border expansion to work the cow pasture. It would be helpful if you could send a missionary there to avoid the need for a monument, but that will mean researching Meditation.

 

[Hold The Onion]

While stabbing HC in the back while he fights Izzy is a doable tactic, why not go after GK while those two duke it out and keep eveyone in check?

 

[Bhruic]

Izzy isn't likely to be able to put up a decent fight vs Huayna. If there's any pillaging done, it's probably going to be against Izzy. So I don't think a war there is going to do much to weaken him. And, really, he's the major concern right now. The reality is, Genghis may be a problem down the line. Huayna is already shaping up to be a problem. He at least needs to have the wind knocked out of his sails, if we can't land a major blow against him.

Bh

 

[Joxer]

With your gold surplus, I think you should found that city near the 2 gold supplies. Once you get the mines up and running, it should pay for itself in maint and deprive the Financial Inca from getting it and really abusing his trait.

I would fortify Goth against GK and go after the Inca. Whether its just a pillaging war to take out his metals and slow him down or cause some real damage. But best to bring Izzy into the war though and build the +Mutual War effort points with her.

Can also use her to help out with GK too and make her your mistress for life.









You know you want to.

 

[Heffling]

Found the double gold city and move your palace there for the eventual switch to beaurocracy. Work on getting a strong balance of farms to support cottages there.

Target Ghengis. He doesn't have anything to offer Hayuna, and even if you crash your economy down for a bit with upkeep, you'll be able to mass produce enough obsolete units if needed to wipe him out.

Use your GS to build an academy either in your current capital (immediate synergy with GL's two scientists) or in your future two-gold capital (immediate border pops so you can work the cows and grow). Don't lightbulb compass, as other than trade bait for monarchy it gets you no immediate advantage. Finish out Currency, which the computer is generally slow to research, and trade it for monarchy (hopefully with Ghengis).

Switch to Hinduism and court Hayuna. You're going to get the -1 You attacked my friend penalty when you jump Ghengis, so you want him on your side. You may be able to bribe him to war with Isabel, which would tie up his resources for a while and slow his tech development.

Key techs in your immediate future (And the order I would research them):
Construction (Elephants, Catapults, Bridges)
Code of Laws (Caste System so you don't need libraries, Courthouses)
Civil Service (Beaurocracy, Irrigation spreads).
Philosophy (Pacifism baby!) or Machinery (X-bows and Macemen)

Keeping in mind, this is based on tech trading to Hayuna to get Monarchy and whatever other fill techs you desire.

Also, I would run your research slider at 100% for as long as possible. Once you have CoL and Caste System, you can have one city run several merchants to produce a GM for upgrading funds. Do you know who has the Temple of Artemis?

Remember: Land is power.

Heffling

P.S. Rancid, running the GL in your capital is typically great under an SE because your capital is almost always a high food production city, and thus a great spot for your NE.

 

[Fetch]

Do you realize that this thread go exactly 0 new posts for May 16th? That has to be some sort of ALC record. Carry on, that is all.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

Having recently played a Cyrus game using great people to get closer to Cavalry works quite well. IMO save the Scientist for bulbing Philosophy, then get 2-3 more (using Caste System to get the final one quickly) to bulb Paper, Education and Liberalism. I managed to get Cavalry by 980 AD this way and got a domination victory in 1352 .

 

[Tyrant Roger]

OK, so you have gotten lots of conflicting advice. All of it sounds pretty good to me, but now you get to choose what to do. So build, develop, attack, defend all at once. Sounds easy enough to me!

 

[Heffling]

It's pretty easy: Build barracks and libraries. That should carry you to finishing researching construction.

Build units, units, and more units. Then some more units. Attack.

Never defend. The best defense is a good offense.

If you follow my plan and attack Ghengis, then bribe Hayuna to attack Isabel. Even if he walks all over her pillage-wise, he'll still be slowed down by altering his research away from the liberalism path and towards military techs, and by building units instead of infrastructure. And if his army is all sitting at his west border...

 

[Hold The Onion]

It's pretty easy: Build barracks and libraries. That should carry you to finishing researching construction.

Build units, units, and more units. Then some more units. Attack.

Never defend. The best defense is a good offense.

If you follow my plan and attack Ghengis, then bribe Hayuna to attack Isabel. Even if he walks all over her pillage-wise, he'll still be slowed down by altering his research away from the liberalism path and towards military techs, and by building units instead of infrastructure. And if his army is all sitting at his west border...

agree. especially about it not mattering how the war goes on between the 2, just that there is a war between them.

 

[Hackapell]

It seems we are at a critical juncture in the game. the question we face is who to attack, GK or Huyana? You do'nt exactly have any spearmen to handle GK's Keshik's, but you also have no axemen to help the immortals take HC. I would personally spend most of the time expanding and shoring up the economy enough that near the end of the round, you can DoW on HC, get izzy in on the fun, and keep the border with GK militarized simultaneoulsy.
On the GS, Iwould use him to light buld Philo, so research any techs you need for it, and also self- research Drama, since it is relatively cheap.