ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[cabert]

My suggestion is to get a settler out asap.
If you don't get to the copper soon enough you can still settle a good production city on the way (civseta's yellow or 1W of it, depending on your will to invest in culture or not, I'd rather take the hill to have the pigs in the first circle), which would make a chariot rush a lot easier.
Teching to AH asap off course.
How to get to a settler asap?
Option 1 :
switch to settler now, chop chop and whip when it becomes possible.
You waste your ability to work the gold for a long time (not so long really, but I always have the feeling it's too long), but it's certainly the fastest way.
Option 2:
finish your workboat, continue with a warrior (you're a bit weak right now, aren't you?) while growing to size 4, continue with a settler, chop (you can prechop!), then whip for 2 pop. You'll be back to size 2 = your current size.

Can't do the maths right now but I have the feeling that option 1 is a bit too harsh, and will lead to a vulnerable settler. Your initial scout can open the way, but it's a bit risky still.

 

[EEE_BOY]

tile overlap is not big deal if he plays SE, it is food resource that matters. some tiles like plain are not worth covering. grassland is neutral and food resources like fish are vital. don't waste that fish tile and share one clam with roman capital.

 

[Chrispy]

Has Julius adopted slavery yet? I didn't see any mention of him adopting Slavery and he didn't have it when you met. If he doesn't, hustling for the settler makes sense to claim the copper before Julius even knows it is there. A site around the copper probably looks the best anyway, but maybe he'll go up to claim the 2 fish to the NE.

Moscow turned out well in that the remaining clam can be used even more than I thought before. 2E of the lake has enough food sources to bring in a couple more scientists (clam, crab, lake, flood plain.)

At this point, my long-term plan would be to take out Julius, move the capital to Rome, and cottage the flood plains. Of course, taking out Julius is the tougher part.

I think teching to IW makes the most sense. Will there be horses if you research AH? If not, you have no use for it in the short-term. I find Iron is more common and Iron is a much bigger threat from Julius.

 

[Porphyrius]

First build? A Worker, to get the gold on-line ASAP:
[...]
In 3525 Moscow's borders popped and I decided to work the 3 food tile, the corn. I wanted the population to grow quickly so I could start working that gold tile ASAP.

So you mostly went in gold rush mode.

But more seriously, you kind of under value early growth. I mean yes you have the gold worked but Moscow is still size 2 and a boat is less than half built.

Right now i see two options :

(A) Make use of the gold to pay maintenance for a somewhat distant city. Chop rush a settler and settle him 1E of the copper.
Its a good city site anyhow and you dont need to hook up copper to Moscow ASAP you can still build axes on site for a while. A single axe on line in each city and you dont need to worry about your military for quite a while. Plus you block him in quite a bit.

As for getting there first its a risk allright. But not as big as it seems. You can chop/whip and julius cant. The AI also focuses on getting a city to size before settlers. And with so much fish/food i would too.
2 chops and a whip will get you a settler at 12 turns + 4 turns to get there and settle = 16. I think you have more than fair chances of making it in time. Ofcourse had you focused on growing/boats for a change it would be hardly a risk.
Obviously research wheel/mysticism.


(B) Make use of the gold to beef science. Research IW ASAP as Moscow grows/makes boats. Should take about 20 turns.

The risk here is the irons position. In any case its much better of than following dreams of white horses. It may half as long to get AH but you ve got no immidiate uses for it. And horses could pop anywhere in flatlands. Iron solves all you war needs for quite a while, horses make a very poor substitute.


In any case its not really bad. You are probably not isolated in your island and theres quite enough food/gold/FPs to aleviate your research needs.

The RNG has just proven you though that he can give your foes a better capital, even when you think your starting position rocks.

 

[Gwil]

BTW, it's the "Moai Statues" (ie Easter Island, off the coast of Chile i believe) and not Maori, which is the name given to the indigenous peoples of New Zealand.

For someone who prides themself on cultural awareness Sis, you shock me

 

[FeedBack]

How to get to a settler asap?
...
Option 2:
finish your workboat, continue with a warrior (you're a bit weak right now, aren't you?) while growing to size 4, continue with a settler, chop (you can prechop!), then whip for 2 pop. You'll be back to size 2 = your current size.

^^ What he said!
Although I think with a settler right away you would surely get the copper site before Julius (and I'd settle 1E of the copper, even if it'll have a useless coastal tile), wild animals could eat your settler easily. A scout only wouldn't be enough for all that way. Better be safe than sorry...

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I'm not sure about that copper site. It's awfully close to his capital, and just because he can't see the bronze doesn't mean he won't want the gold. It would pay off nicely if you managed it, but I wouldn't be hell-bent on it, and I certainly wouldn't send a settler that far on its own. If you send out the settler and you miss it because you had to stop build a warrior, at least you still have the settler. If he gets eaten, you just wasted a god awful amount of hammers and stunted your growth. AH first. Then Wheel if the horses are conveniently placed, Iron Working if not(assuming you don't get the bronze.) Actually, you're opponent is Rome. You need to know where Iron is even if you get the bronze, so prioritize it anyways...

 

[icantdrawanime]

If you box the AI in he will attack you. I dont think you can get to the copper before he can so I think you're best bet here is war. Get HA and pray you have horses or go for Iron and pray for that. Either way you should be on your knees the whole time until Caesar is gone.

 

[uncarved block]

Even if an early rush against Caesar doesn't work out, there's still plenty of room over the ocean. Caesar ain't Monty; you can get along with him OK for a while, but not forever.

In fact, getting a Work Boat out to explore early on will probably pay for itself in information five-fold, but that's just my opinion.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'd go for writing next before IW. Building/rushing/chopping a library will be good with all the food, commerce from the sea and the gold. Julius is going to build a city anyway and by the time you have chariots for pillaging you'll have IW already. Plus can you still use the cheat-o were you look at the tile yields to find out where iron is? All you need to do is pillage a road if you can't pillage his mine.

 

[Scaphism]

I say don't try and beat him to settle next to his capital.
Let him build the settler and let the city grow to size 2. It will be a good early game city with 3-4 pop.

I think AH->(Wheel)->IW is in order.

As for builds, go with Fish over Clams. The extra turn benefit from working the clams on the same round the boat completes is negligible - the fish would make it up 2 turns later, and it outproduces from then on. The commerce boost is negligible too - your capital (9) and gold (7) are doing the heavy lifting. That extra 1 is such a small percentage of your total commerce it's not worth going after, but the extra food from fish is crucial because you are food poor at the moment.
*Edit* If I did my math correctly, working clams would put you at 6(2 surplus) , 18 . Fish would put you at 7(3 surplus) , 17 . The extra of the clams would be 5.5% more , but the extra would be 50% more .

Summarized briefly: Work Fish not Clams. You are already commerce-heavy, but you are food deficient (because you are working the gold). The fish better fills your weak spot, while clams is only a marginal boost to an area where you're already really strong.

Finally: ideally you'll find both horses and iron. Even if you get horses don't stop researching IW - the horses will be mainly to pillage the copper, pick off a worker (maybe), and they can fogbust. But swords will be far better than chariots for taking cities, especially if he masses archers.

There are so many priorities for what needs to be built in the capital. So many crucial decisions in the early game. You're still building your second item (worker-work boat) but you could use a second worker, second workboat, settler, warrior, and barracks. The one thing you don't need is another scout - so I'd say building worker first instead of scout first was the right move this time.

 

[facistal]

I agree w/ Cabert that you need a second city. Get that settler out quickly.

On the Military front, go for IW. You will want to be able to see where the Iron is anyway. IMO you are already too late for a chariot rush unless Horses appear in you BFC.

By the time you hook it up it will be too late. You will need to bring 2x the number of defenders even if JC only has archers and by that time he will have at least 3. In that best case scenario you could get it done, but three thing are likely to happen before then.

1) Ceaser will hook up the copper: That is the end of that rush b/c.....

2) Ceasar will adopt slavery and in BTS he WILL whip his whole population as you approach to build spearmen/archers. The early rush has been hurt most by this new behaviour by the AI.

3) He will probably found another city. This only increases the number of troops you will need for your rush to be successful.

Now if there is no Iron, I think you need to do something a little different.

Hunting > Archery > AH > HBR!!!

I know, I know, - It's an expensive dead end tech.

OTOH, You now NEED defense. Forget the barbs, with only warriors JC will invade in the BC's - trust me. So archers.... have too.

HBR, IMO got a huge buff in BTS because cats got nerfed, so everyone demanding a construction beeline.... what do you expect to actually take the cities with. The other thing you get with HBR is stables. I think a lot of people slept on this very useful building until Knights or cavs because HA sucked in warlords, but getting 2 promo HA out of the gate make a huge difference.

Combat 2 HA against fortified Archers in a 60% culture capital. are 7.2 > 7.1 so you are a favorite. Flanking 2 HA get a 50% withdraw chance (I think). and are still a respectable 6 > 7.1 so you should get some wins with them. These numbers are also assume that JC has something generating a ton of culture which he may not, so you could walk all over him.

I think that the island IS big enough for you to expand to three cities before mounting you assualt if need be.

Anyway, hopefully you will have Iron and it will be mute, but if not, go HBR not Construction.

 

[Elrohir]

Granted, growth is slowed, but the fishing boat will soon make up for that. Should I work the fish or the 1N clams first? The clams will bring in more commerce, being coastal, and be available on the turn that the work boat is complete. The fish, on the other hand, will bring in 1 more food than the clams (and 1 less commerce, being the sole ocean tile in the BFC). Another tough choice--basically choosing between a very slight but potentially significant advantage to growth or to commerce for a few turns.

Fish! With the gold mine hooked up, your research rate is going to be very good for this early in the game - one or two more commerce won't help too much, while an extra food will help build settlers and workers, and help grow in the space between. (And if you're whipping, that can be really important) You can afford the one turn loss because of the extra food.

 

[aelf]

Awesome capital, and if you capture Rome early to add to it, you can look forward to a good time.

However, I suspect there's a balancing factor in that you and Caesar may be isolated, so you may have no tech trading partner till you meet the others through caravels. Unless that coast to the southwest belongs to another large landmass with a civ or two.

 

[Pomp]

From what I've seen so far, the BtS AI techs more slowly than the Warlords AI, so being isolated might not be as much of a concern as it was in the past.

One thing that might be worthwhile is to keep a warrior near the copper, so you can DoW and grab any workers who might start building a mine on it, assuming Caesar plants his second city to claim it.

 

[Quornix]

Part of the reason why things are so slow out of the gate is because of early tile working. After the worker, you should have worked a 3H tile (switching to the gold ASAP), not the 3F tile. That would get the workboat out faster, which means a 5F tile faster (fish). Once that came online, you would be able to grow very quickly, then work the gold again, and have a 3F surplus.

Early growth is great and all, but you want to have your second tile developed by the time you hit pop 2.

I won't give advice on what to do next, since I've played ahead, and know where and if iron and horses will show up.

 

[slobberinbear]

1. Iron working! If you don't get it, Julius will. If no Iron, then Animal Husbandry.
2. The Wheel. To hook up the iron to city #2.
3. Sailing, if you can get a sea route to city #2 quicker than by road. Plus, you'll want Lighthouses and Galleys anyway.

Then Sword rush the bum! If you can manage to get a spy out to nerf his cultural defenses, so much the better! I'd get about 8 swords and 2 axes and storm Rome.

I like the city location in the middle of the island, near the pigs. Good food, production, and a river. It would be an excellent second city (if iron is there) or third city.

 

[NaZdReG]

I have to reverse my opionion and agree with just beelining iron working. the only way you will overcome whipped axes is with shock axes and swords. chariots aren't going to be strong enough.

so beeline iron, and prey its nearby.

also your coast looks like it has a few spots that border other coast.. hopefully there are more civs out there within galley reach.

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

Hmm, the capital on a grassland hill? Why not the plains hill of the start it builds things way quicker.

You missed or skipped the usual six pages of hand-wringing over the capital, did you?

An extra hammer is nice. Gold is better. Gold won. End of story.

I played to 500 BC.... in my game. The copper placement is worth a try.... although i got no idea why julius in my game is so stupid....

Well, I need a Settler for a 2nd city anyway. It may be worth a shot provided my Scout fog-busts any animals away. But I'm not going to count on it.

BTW, it's the "Moai Statues" (ie Easter Island, off the coast of Chile i believe) and not Maori, which is the name given to the indigenous peoples of New Zealand.

For someone who prides themself on cultural awareness Sis, you shock me

Oops. That's what I get for typing in a hurry. Hey, at least I've heard of the Maori!

From what I've seen so far, the BtS AI techs more slowly than the Warlords AI, so being isolated might not be as much of a concern as it was in the past.

One thing that might be worthwhile is to keep a warrior near the copper, so you can DoW and grab any workers who might start building a mine on it, assuming Caesar plants his second city to claim it.

Yeah, I'm thinking keeping Caesar from that Copper will be important, so some type of military unit needs to go over there.

I think I should finish the Work Boat. Porphyrius is right, early growth is important, and the only way to get that now is with the fish. Plus the food will help with a Settler build.

After that, I think a Warrior followed by a Settler. The Warrior can sit on the copper and potentially nab a Worker from Julius if one wanders by. It can also protect the Settler, wherever that unit ends up going. Depending on my luck with Worker-nabbing, the next build in Moscow would either be another Worker or a Work Boat, which might engage in exploration rather than fishing.

Now that the debate about where to put the capital is over, we have another great debate brewing regarding the next tech! I'm inclined at this point to switch those overflowing flasks from the Wheel to Iron Working. Chariots just won't be as effective as Swords and Axes at achieving my aim of having the island all to myself.

Looking at the various dot maps, it looks like there's room for at around 12 cities. That's a decent-enough sized empire to win the game, and the land lends itself to the SE, especially once I can spread irrigation from the rivers to the plains in the north and especially the grasslands in the southwest.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Swords are really really bad against axes, you'll need a lot of axes and few swords. I guess that will be a new experience playing BtS, the AI hardly ever builds axes in Warlords for defence.

HBR and horse archers sounds pretty neat though, if ther's no iron. They kick archers in big time, immune from first strikes. A couple with flanking should be able to soften up spears. Long tech path though.