ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[pigswill]

I'd move the settler 1E; still grabs 3 seafood and corn then build second city 1N of gold, grabs gold and remaining 2 seafood with minimal overlap.

 

[cabert]

I'd move the settler 1E; still grabs 3 seafood and corn then build second city 1N of gold, grabs gold and remaining 2 seafood with minimal overlap.

I don't think overlapping is too brutal here.
If you put the second city 1N of the gold, it has access to 2 seafood tiles. Only 1 is overlapping with a city founded in the initial settler position. Depending on how you use the second city, it may or not be necessary for it. Anyway in the short/medium term, it's better used by the second city than not at all.

 

[CivSetä]

I'd move the settler 1E; still grabs 3 seafood and corn then build second city 1N of gold, grabs gold and remaining 2 seafood with minimal overlap.

I agree on that.

Capital would still have enough food to be a GP farm. It would have also the fresh water bonus, which is very important on modern times when you probably have some health issues. And four hills is enough for early wonders.

Second city 1N of gold is not that great on the long run, but will do in early game. With a little luck there might be horses on the plains. Again, there is enough production too in this city for some early wonders, imho.

 

[futurehermit]

1NW of the settler's current position is the best opening imho. Getting the gold online very early will GREATLY accelerate early research. Waiting to get it online in a second city means you waste many precious early turns that could be supercharged by the gold pit.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Futurehermit agrees with me? I must be getting a bit better at this game then! (Thanks to your advice in specialist economy thread mainly, I'm now a pyramid scheme salesman again!).

My other argument for capital and not 2nd city to claim the gold is you would want to build libraries in both cities then presumably which is quite alot of hammers early doors.

 

[Chrispy]

It seems like we have two good city locations: 1N of gold, and either on the plains hill (or 1E of plains hill to reduce overlap.)

1N of gold will work for production and commerce via the gold; the current site works as a GP farm with the seafood and fresh water for increased size in the long term.

futurehermit's spot 1NW of the current location will grab 4 seafood plus the corn plus the gold, but it only leaves the clam and the lake for a second city out on the coast. However, if there is more seafood out to the east in the fog, that could become a good second city as well.

I'm still hesitant about taking 3 turns to found Moscow 1N of the gold, but I think founding there and deciding where to put the GP farm for city #2 seems best. It could be you find more seafood to the east of the GP farm, as the coast appears to hit a corner south of that easternmost clam.

As far as building, I'd say Warrior, work boat, worker. The warrior can search the forests around the lake while the scout goes further out in the unforested areas.

 

[Halt]

Can I ask a question about setting? Is Aggressive AI "checked"? After playing several games now with and without it checked in the options... I can't imagine playing a "competitive" Game without the Aggressive AI enabled.

This is not a complaint friend... just a question.

Thanks! Love these write ups.

Blake's comments
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=168663

 

[slobberinbear]

I strongly advocate settling in place.

As you stated, westward leads to a whole lot of plains squares. Why take one great location and swap it for a good one and a mediocre one for your second city? Yes, you'll get the gold for your capitol, but at a loss of time and some of the seafood.

Keep it simple. You have been handed an awesome starting location. Settle there and begin your workboat armada. You will have the luxury of time to find the perfect second city spot to get the gold later.

You have the proverbial bird in the hand right now.

 

[futurehermit]

With a strong capital like that (gold + academy + GL + 6+ scientists) I wouldn't worry about having a slightly weaker 2nd city. 1 super city + 1 average city is better imo than having 2 good cities. You can put an academy for example in the super city instead of having to use 2 GSs for 2 academies.

I would say build the super-capital and then worry about other city placement later.

 

[Chrispy]

After reading that, futurehermit's won me over. Plus, as I look at the land left over after settling 1NW of the start location, clam + lake + 2 plains hills would create a city that can handle production while Moscow operates as a GP farm.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

With a strong capital like that (gold + academy + GL + 6+ scientists) I wouldn't worry about having a slightly weaker 2nd city. 1 super city + 1 average city is better imo than having 2 good cities. You can put an academy for example in the super city instead of having to use 2 GSs for 2 academies.

I would say build the super-capital and then worry about other city placement later.

You got nothing but agreement from me! And, as was already mentioned, you have oodles of health around, and some clams left to the east. The golden capital is just what the doctor ordered, IMO. This city can generate both a lot of food and a lot of commerce. Sounds like a great site to me. 1 NW, for the Gold!

 

[stuge]

Settle where you are, second city 1N of the gold. That'll get you a solid core of two cities with decent production and enough food to run two scientists apiece.
Plus, it leaves the possibility of building a third city east, perhaps borrowing clams from Moscow.

 

[cabert]

Settle where you are, second city 1N of the gold. That'll get you a solid core of two cities with decent production and enough food to run two scientists apiece.
Plus, it leaves the possibility of building a third city east, perhaps borrowing clams from Moscow.

Now it's 2 of us .

 

[LlamaCat]

I'll be curious to see how you wage war in this game with BTS compared to the past ALC games.

I'm finding it extremely difficult to capture cities that only have 1-2 longbowmen defending, for example. The reason is that the AI will send out siege weapons to injure your stacks before they can even get to the city, then their defenders just sit there earning promotions. So having large stacks can be suicide now, no matter what units you mix and match ... you've got to somehow micromanage several stacks around the city and try to evade or misdirect all the time. And if you're not pumping out well-promoted units, forget it. I haven't quite figured out how to do it successfully, but I just know that having a large stack of cats, macemen, and crossbowmen will not cut it anymore. Game on!


PS I didn't see if random events was checked on in this game, but I hope so!

Also, I would also recommend using no tech brokering. I think people will start to find that setting is how this game was meant to be played.

 

[xanadux]

Now it's 2 of us .

It's 3. I was initially for settling in place, and the more I look at it, the more I still think settling in place is best. Moving NW adds a water tile, wastes a forest, gives up several grasslands for plains. We also lose a turn plus lose the extra hammer on the city tile from the plains forest (this will be huge getting that first fishing boat out fast), and prevents us from working the only 3 food tile until a border pop. We also exchange a lake tile for a coast tile, which isn't huge, but the lake tile is better. Gold is very nice, but working it also has an expense of food and hammers (gold plains is only 3 hammers, not 4). I don't think it's a good idea to see gold and blindly give up a lot of other advantages for a quicker start food and production wise. The quicker we can build the pyramids, the quicker we can get on to building up our specialist economy. (and the quicker we start earning double GE points).

What are Peter's starting techs on BtS? This also needs to be taken into account.

 

[Porphyrius]

I would say build the super-capital and then worry about other city placement later.

I wholeheartly agree with that, after all aside from the reasons you give most of the map is still unkown. 1N of gold seems a pretty mediocre site, but the gold may be accesible from its S.

However lets evaluate movin 1 NW.

Gold will boost very early trade by about 40%. Still this will be a GP farm and the gold wont synergize well with that. Soon tech will mostly come from specialists/GL.

However, the capitals growth is slowed by several turns as the corn(only 3 tile) will need a border expansion to be worked and the from the city square is gone.
Further on, if we settle in place a worker can be delayed after a settler built at size 3/4 based on surplus. A very early settler can mean a lot as metal/horses are quite rarer in BTS and we'd rather have that than a bit stronger early research.
Plus, moving 1NW will replace grass with 3 dry plains and 3 coast tiles, not excactly an improvment.

I am not absolute about it, but settling in place seems optimal. I find very early / preferable to , especially with BTS making research slingshots less appealing.

A plan is needed to optimize what to do with all those forests BTW. Wonders and such...
But after a bit more scouting.

 

[AlessioCerci]

1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW 1 NW . U get the point

 

[Welnic]

I vote for settling in place and having a city 1N of the gold.

There can't be a hidden resource where your settler starts.

 

[icantdrawanime]

I vote for settling in place and having a city 1N of the gold.

There can't be a hidden resource where your settler starts.

It has happened to me before.

I've noticed that a lot of the big and small maps generate ridiculous starts. The first BTS game I played, I started with 5 gold tiles in my capitals BFC...

There was another where Napolean and Shaka both started with 3 gem tiles in their BFCs... They were crammed in to my south, needless to say their civilization did not get a chance to bloom...

I would say settle 1 NW... Those plains arent going to let you take advantage of the gold, so grab it with your capital.

 

[Hellspark]

I agree with Futurehermit - a great capital with gold, food and hills is a quick way to early game success. Plus I usually try to head inland / towards the copper / AI's with my second city. The great capital will fund early research and expansion.