ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[BARBEERIAN]

First I'd move your your scout 1-NW, 1-W and see if there's any more food around there. If there's say 2 food and some good cottagable tiles you might want to just move your capital there now and make your second city the insanely good GP city.

If the scout doesn't reveal a good location I'd settle in place, and debate moving the palace at some point. Since you plan on moving the capital if you settle the fishing zone it might be better to work the gold with another city (if it will be good enough to get the palace and the resulting Bureaucracy benefits)

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I think the wonder economy as obsolete plays it won't work on BtS since cavs and grenadiers have both been pushed back haven't they?

 

[Quornix]

I think the wonder economy as obsolete plays it won't work on BtS since cavs and grenadiers have both been pushed back haven't they?

Yeah. There's no certain tech that gives a major military advantage. Everything's roughly equivalent to getting Macemen first -- good, but not overwhelming on its own, or without a legitimate counter (and the AI will build shock crossbows or their equivalent). On the other hand, this makes it better to play a more balanced game, which includes picking up a few extra wonders.

 

[xanadux]

I'm curious to see what obsolete does with BtS. In addition to the cav being pushed back, the great wall no longer gives the early GE to be used either to settle for a nice production boost/ build pyramids. Although on monarch level, vanilla civ (no great wall to build), this didn't cause me problems in my games.

I think the wonder economy is probably a mistake without either the industrious trait or stone and/or marble. But settling great people can be a strong move, and from what I have heard about BtS, with the AI teching slower, a settled GP makes to be more valuable than blowing them on a tech you won't be able to trade for as much profit.

My first monarch win was vanilla with Saladin, building few wonders (did get pyramids), isolated start with only 3 good city spots. The terrain (as this ALC game does) favored a SE over CE, and I ran caste system and maxed out scientists, especially in a 16 surplus food city. I settled all scientists but one for an academy in that city. Although when I met the AIs I was a few techs behind, the power of all those scientists eventually gave me a huge tech lead and an easy space race win.

I really think getting pyramids and parthenon here plus HR and caste system will produce an absolute juggernaut science city by settling all scientists but one for the academy. The capital should eventually be moved most likely to use buearacracy. But the early game production that comes from so much food, so many forest, and so many hills pretty much demands settling in place. And even if you don't move the capital, buearacracy will multiply all that coast commerce and all those hill hammers when you use them.

 

[Porphyrius]

Epic Speed - pop at 11 turns. Required food is 3 * (10 + pop).

I meant pop = culture pop not growth population. I apologise if it seems unclear.

Something like Obsoletes Wonder Economy fits like a glove to a Philo/Expan leader on a / rich site. And chopping practcally qurantees early wonders we want.

In theory BTS would help self made research. And bulbing seems a tad weaker in BTS too. In practise who can say if things will work out, Obsoletes approach is a bit absolute...
Parthenon for examble may not be worth getting as an allready Philo leader.

Lots of people relied on getting key techs and units regardless if by any combination of bulbing/trading/cottaging. Now we all have to adapt. I dont think Obsoletes method is any more depended on cavalry or grenadiers than the rest. A very rich capital has even more military applications than ever. Less tech quality advantage means more important quantity advantage. In theory allways...

 

[xanadux]

I think being philo makes the parthenon even more valuable. Multiplication of an advantage is a beautiful thing. A super high food city is a SE economy monster. Add philo, and is better. Add parthenon, even better. With great library, this city could be producing 75 GPP shortly after 1 AD. Get pacifism, and it just gets sick.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I vote for settling NW myself. Too much food otherwise!!! You don't want a load of fat soldiers do you Get the gold. You can build another city to the east to share the bounty of the sea. There's no way you can work all the food until you get HR or pyramids anyway (which might be a good plan with this start).

 

[Mesousa]

I'm a bit disappointed with this game's setup. Why epic as long as the espionage scaling problem exists, why not a custom game to include some of the new BTS features like No Tech Brokering? Well, can't be helped.

I'd settle in place. It's really a dream location, plains hill with so much food and plenty of chopping opportunities. Losing a turn to move the settler away from this seems hardly worth it. Let the second city take the gold. Fishing, then off to chop the Pyramids.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I suggested playing at normal speed too because of the scaling problem but it's started now so stick with it (unless you think you can get a better start if you reroll!).

If you go for an early offensive I'd make sure you build a couple of boats (triremes have been pushed back to MC too haven't they?) in case the victim comes along and blockades your fish and pillages your clams. That's the big negative with working seafood tiles I think, you become dependent on them and emergency whipped boat defence always seems to lose when attacking for me (in warlords anyway).

 

[martin031]

I have played a few games on Epic and had my water supplies poisoned and had the forment unrest or whatever. It did not seemed too unbalanced.

With the water supply one, I did not even lose a population point. I just had to switch some tiles around and fire a specialist or two. Annoying but easily not gamebreaking. I think the real problems occur on Marathon.

 

[slobberinbear]

Another longtime lurker checking in. I'm a Noble/Prince player, for the most part, so I'll defer to wiser heads on most issues here. But I have played BtS a ton since release, and I have some observations.

Once you move the scout to the nearby hill, you'll have a better picture. But settling in place will be hard to beat: no delay, extra hammer from the plains/hill city tile, and a great mix overall of food, commerce, and production in the capitol.

Not trying to threadjack, but I have some other random BtS observations to throw in at the outset:

* the AI's "blue circle" city location recommendations are not reliable. It frequently recommends tiles 3 squares away and misses resources. I wouldn't use it as "hidden resource radar" as before.
* early wars seem to be more expensive than before. Watch your economy if you go on the offensive before Code of Laws, Currency, and/or a holy shrine. Of course, with all that seafood commerce you have some money to burn ...
* Founding and spreading a religion is even more attractive with Apostlic (sp) Palace. As long as the Palace builder's religion is present in at least one of another civ's cities, that other civ can essentially be forced to declare war and/or make peace.
* There are now a greater variety of barbarian units, and more barb galleys overall. You'll want to build a trireme or two for defense of your fisheries.
* In mid-game, if you can spare 10% towards espionage, you'll most likely be able to see what the AI civs are researching and have plenty of spy points to send your spies on counterespionage missions. My guess is that counterespionage will be key on higher difficulty levels.
* the Woodsman III promotion is wonderful. If you can get a warrior or two promoted to W III, I would run that unit home and save him for future upgrading.

After the initial fishing, worker, and a few of the military techs, assuming you don't have a hostile neighbor right next door, I would build two cities then try for a traditional Oracle slingshot, chopping and whipping as necessary. The hard part would be deciding between Metal Casting (for Colossus ... yummy!), Code of Laws (religion + courthouses), or Theology, if you have the prerequisities (religion + warmonger tech + Sistine Chapel).

Sorry for the long post. Looking forward to a *turn* now.

 

[Sisiutil]

kniteowl you muppet, it is not possible to settle 1NE, unless of course sisiutil has devolped the ability to settle underwater cities.

Next expansion pack!

Much like you would consider splitting floodplains at an overabundant start.

A very good point. As much as I like the +1 from settling on a plains hill, the +6 from gold is huge in the early game.

I'm a bit disappointed with this game's setup. Why epic as long as the espionage scaling problem exists, why not a custom game to include some of the new BTS features like No Tech Brokering? Well, can't be helped.

I try to keep things as standard as possible for the ALCs. The one bit of mucking about I did with this game is the new map, but B&S already sounds like a very popular one, so it made sense to choose it and give it a whirl. Other than a few changes to the map selections, however, I've left all ALCs with the default settings. Partially it's to be able to compare the games to one another, but also it's didactic, to emulate the standard settings most casual players use.

I have played a few games on Epic and had my water supplies poisoned and had the forment unrest or whatever. It did not seemed too unbalanced.

With the water supply one, I did not even lose a population point. I just had to switch some tiles around and fire a specialist or two. Annoying but easily not gamebreaking. I think the real problems occur on Marathon.

I'd agree with this assessment, granted that I'm only basing it on the one BtS game I've played. I did have 3 (!) of my core cities poisoned within 2 turns of one another early in one war. I think it indicates that buildings like the Security Bureau and missions like Counter-Espionage are very important. The random events also destroyed my GL city's library in that game, and that falls into the same category--annoying, but just one more thing to deal with.

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, I moved the Scout. Here's a look at what he revealed.



Well, my first goody hut of the game. And a lot of plains, with no fresh water in sight. Not good for a SE, and not much good at all until both Civil Service and Biology. Darn.

Frankly, that makes me even more inclined to split the seafood between 2 cities. And several of you have pointed out that I won't be able to take full advantage of the larger city size until very late in the game because of the happiness caps.

So I'm going to move the Settler. The only question is where. I also think I'll be expanding to the southeast in hopes that the land is better that way.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Ooh fancy pants hatched graphics on the cultural radius! Is that only when a settler is active? Pointless but different.

I still vote NW for the settler, and settle another city east of capital for the rest of the seafood. The land looks a bit better that way.

Tundra on the island to the north means you are at the north end of your continent (is it big or small though?), so you want to be looking southwards next. The hut will take you that way anyhow.

EDIT: Aren't you expansive (+2 health) and there's 4 health resources anyway plus loads of forest? So I wouldn't worry about health too much. Plus you can build a harbour, an aqueduct and a granary if needed.

 

[Chipacabra]

I think you want one city on the space that the scout started on, but it doesn't need to be your first city.

Moving the settler one space to the east will still give it a nice variety of food to choose from, but unfortunately we have no idea yet what else you'd have. Still, there's plenty of wood for early production and chopping, and with that much food you can start on the GPPs pretty early.

 

[cabert]

don't move the settler
I suggest splitting the seafood by settling in place then settling 1N of the gold.
You capital will spread the culture to the seafood tiles, allowing your second city to work them straight away.

edit : your settler is on a tile with access to fresh water!
edit 2: the south looks like desert. With no river in sight, there can be no flood plain.

 

[Killroyan]

1 NW still feels the best to me to be honest. Your second city could go 1SE of the right clams. This way it can use both clams. Lots of grassland there so that may be your cottage heaven. Your capital can be the production center. 3 sea food and 3 mines at size 8 and even have enough food to use 2 specialists while maintaining 11 hammers per turn. Colussus/great lighthouse/temple of artemis??? Health is of no consequence with this setup. You have 4 health already from the resources, 2 more from expansive and 3 more with harbor so you don't need to worry about that. Happy resources are however welcome.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I agree with the move 1 NW, BUT....and there's allway's a but, WHAT resource will appear on the plains hill that you've just vacated..if any mind you. Seems rather strange, one bald plains hill amongst all those trees..

Moving 1 NW, gain 3 sea food types and corn, work Gold mine...Extra monies. Hills to mine, woods to chop, Maoi statutes...A great wonder for your Beauracratic capital......only problem is that you have no rivers for the levy building, great getting 1 hammer on every river tile..

Food and gold, are essential for your capital, happyness will be the limiting factor, so a forge with gold = 2 happy chappies. health, expansive 2 healthy, no flood plains so only sick Citizens from buildings/population, but extra food deals with that. UNhappy citizens...only luxurary resources deal with that, and commerace for extra research...BONUS....

Note, from what I've seen the AI, WILL land troops via boat, Barbarians, DO ATTACK OFF BOATS to grab workers...WHAT!!!!! yes they do. AI LOVES air ships....4/city on coast, along with 4 defenders/city.

Cultural vicotory, AI WILL GO FOR CULTURAL VICTORY. If one ai grabs 3/4 religions...they'll go for a cultural victory.

Beware the religious block, even more deadly now, and the AI captulates more readily now, from what I've read, *vanilla player only*

Last, off topic, but BTS is not backwards compatible with warlords/vanilla....Shame as I wanted to try your last ALC game with a wonder focused capital setting specialist/specialist economy with bronze city only ....oh well.....

 

[ParadigmShifter]

If a resource appears isn't that an even better argument for a move?

Cool about barbs landing from galleys. Catchy username by the way IPEX-731BA5DD06.

 

[Killroyan]

If this is the case IPEX then BTS is a whole new ball game. Barbarians snatching workers. Hehe. Even more reasons to connect them to a warrior or archer.

I actually expect horses to show up in the west. And if a strategic resource would pop up in the hill the settler is standing on then even more power to it. Ans Maoi statues with these seafood is just