ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[Hero]

I vote for settling in place and having a city 1N of the gold.

There can't be a hidden resource where your settler starts.

I agree with Welnic and Cabert.

 

[DragonHawk]

I vote for settling NW of current settler's location. To me, early-mid game advantage (gold, variety of seafood) outweighs the uber-food city (which you can't capitalize fully until later anyway).
Plus, with some micromanagement NW city can overcomes the advantage of settling in place.

 

[slobberinbear]

I disagree, DragonHawk. With four seafood tiles worked, you can be a whipping fool and still generate a ton of commerce without the gold tile.

I'd settle in place and save the gold and crabs for city 2. Add me to the list, Cabert.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Very nice start! I agree with settling 1NW, early gold will be crucial to fueling research. Too bad it's mostly plains, but those tiles will come into their own in due time...anyone up for a Biology slingshot via Liberalism??

I really hope to see all the changes in BTS, not just the new features but the changes to combat, AI tactics, the new tech tree, etc.

 

[Scaphism]

Another vote for NW and the gold.
It's gold. Amazing early commerce/research and it immediately lifts your happy cap by one, letting you grow with all that extra seafood. It also gives a workers something to do with Mining but before bronzeworking comes in. (e.g. Build worker, research fishing->BW->(wheel?), build a boat (or 2) after the worker.

After reading Obsolete's no-cottage/no-lightbulb threads I've started to emphasize settling and producing a super-city rather than spreading out your research/production. Not that you'll follow that plan exactly, or not bother expanding, but stacking your + research/+ production modifiers in one city with settled GPs is strong.

 

[mystiqblackcat]

I am very interested in this game, the BTS changes haven't made it any easier for me and I sucked before hand lol.

I vote moving 1 NW and making the super city as well. Having a great start for your first city might give you an edge in the early game against any of civs.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

It seems to me that, whichever direction Sisiutil commits to, there's the prospect of an interesting Shadow game going the other way.

 

[Pomp]

I've been following these threads since Mao, but never posted in them before. Thanks for all the entertainment and education, Sisiutil!

I'm one more vote for 1NW, for all the reasons futurehermit laid out. Bringing that gold online early leverages Peter's ability to build mines right out of the gate, and will help fuel our early research. Plus it's early happiness coupled with all that food, making it easier to research Fishing -> BW and get the whip going.

 

[Dwayne Wade]

i would say settle 1 nw

 

[Welnic]

It seems to me that, whichever direction Sisiutil commits to, there's the prospect of an interesting Shadow game going the other way.

I might do a shadow game if he settles 1 NW.

 

[uncarved block]

One more reason to settle 1NW, to prattle on about the map again-- Big and Small tends to generate massive patches of Jungle and Desert on the main continents (even more than before!), and having two good cities out of the gate might end up being more important in the long run than one super-capitol. Just a couple more cents thrown into the discussion.

 

[icantdrawanime]

I would just like to add that the AI is much better at waging war. I play on monarch and the last game I played was the first time I had ever lost a city to the AI. I had split Asoka's empire in half with a blitzkrieg but he came at my cities with a large stack of mixed units and marched through 3 of my relatively isolated cities.

Of course I wiped him off of the face of the continent but it was a surprise.

Be prepared to fight if you go to war

 

[Validator]

If you settle-in-place you probably won't get around to founding a city N of the gold for some time and by then the gold will not give you a big boost (so you may never end up settling there).

I would be tempted to move the settler 2 turns to the tile E of the gold and settle there on turn 3. That gives a 3 food/gold capital plus leaves the other 3 seafood for a second city. I've found that I get a better start if I have two good cities as opposed to one great city and one mediocre city.

However some have made the point that the second city location will probably be determined by where copper/horses show up, and then later city locations may be chosen to deny land to AIs. So it is very possible that you won't be able to found this "second" city for a while. With that in mind I suppose settling NW is probably the best option.

On another note, I don't think that any of us (i.e. non beta-testers) have enough experience with BTS map scripts to accurately predict what we're likely to encounter.

 

[slaze]

At first glance I thought, Hereditary Rule! With enough units and all that (17 to start, 15 reasonably), it has the potential for specialists or mines, and the food to support it. Or you could even chop out the Pyramids if you put the time in. Overall, plenty of pluses going on with this start.

But the problem is we need two cities to cover all this food and as we pick the capitol, we'll fix the position of the other city right along with it.

Second city 1N of gold is not that great on the long run, but will do in early game.

Parasitic is the word I'd use, as it wouldn't be until sushi that Moscow would get its clams back.

As much as I like the +1 from settling on a plains hill, the +6 from gold is huge in the early game.

That's just the thing. I'll admit though, that 1NW isn't as huge as settling in place. I mean, after counting food settling in place can grow to pop 35 health permitting. But in terms of pop 1-15 1NW is indeed the superior spot due to the gold mine.

1NW of the settler's current position is the best opening imho. Getting the gold online very early will GREATLY accelerate early research. Waiting to get it online in a second city means you waste many precious early turns that could be supercharged by the gold pit.

Both sites are fairly oriented due to the seafood (and palace) and the gold definately more so. Both sites have strong openings as in they can both build a worker w/ 25% bonus immediately and both have access to the 3 corn for early, early growth.

But the gold and the other city are the difference. I'd rather have a free clam in the green and a gold mine capitol than an outlawish, clam stealing-gold mining town mismatched with a late blooming uber.

But then I'd have to say Peter, with dreams of research institutes in his head, would probably settle in place.

 

[Sisiutil]

If you settle-in-place you probably won't get around to founding a city N of the gold for some time and by then the gold will not give you a big boost (so you may never end up settling there).

I would be tempted to move the settler 2 turns to the tile E of the gold and settle there on turn 3. That gives a 3 food/gold capital plus leaves the other 3 seafood for a second city. I've found that I get a better start if I have two good cities as opposed to one great city and one mediocre city.

However some have made the point that the second city location will probably be determined by where copper/horses show up, and then later city locations may be chosen to deny land to AIs. So it is very possible that you won't be able to found this "second" city for a while. With that in mind I suppose settling NW is probably the best option.

On another note, I don't think that any of us (i.e. non beta-testers) have enough experience with BTS map scripts to accurately predict what we're likely to encounter.

What was it some of you said in the previous attempt at a game with Peter? "Let Sisiutil be Sisiutil"?

I would feel best, and feel most confident about the rest of the game, if I have gold in the capital's BFC.

Having a precious metal in the capital's BFC is huge in my off-line games. If I'm feeling like having a romp rather than a challenge, I'll regenerate until I get a start with gems or gold. (So sue me.) That's why when I got this start and saw the food and the gold, I went, OOH! OOH! OOH! and saved it and posted it.

The gold mine takes anywhere from 2-4 turns off of several early techs, and early in the game, that's big. As some of you have mentioned, getting gold in a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th city is not as big a deal. It really only pays off big time if it's worked by the capital early on.

I am thinking both long-term and short-term and 1N of the gold is looking very attractive. Surprise surprise.

It leaves enough room for a GP Farm on the starting position. The two cities will each have a good supply of seafood to grow in the early game. The GP farm can, indeed, wait to be founded later, after a strategic resource city. To deal with barbs, I find it's important to prioritize production for city #2, which the strategic resource will give you.

This plan would definitely require moving the capital later in the game, once the GP Farm is really going strong after the happiness cap has raised significantly. At that point, the GP farm will need the food tiles and the early gold capital will have done its work and will become a marginal city--it may even have to be starved down to let the GP farm claim its clams. I therefore think I'll be moving the capital to a good commerce location around the time I'll be getting Civil Service for bureaucracy. I wouldn't be surprised if my new capital used to be someone else's capital, if you know what I mean.

To be honest, I kind of like trying this route because it's different. I usually settle in place. Let's live a little!

So 1N of the gold, three turns away, is looking like where I'm headed.

With a move to claim the gold assumed, what should be researched and built first? I think Fishing is obvious as a first tech, and I'm honestly leaning towards building a Worker first, which some of you advocated in the previous attempt at a Peter game. Since I start with mining and will have a gold mine to dig right away, I like the idea of starting with a Worker and letting my sole Scout handle exploration duties. And that way waiting for a border pop to work the only 3 food tile is not a big deal, it will be available when the Worker's done. Sound good?

After Fishing, Bronze Working?

And after the Worker, a fishing boat? Then a Settler, methinks, hopefully to claim copper.

It seems to me that, whichever direction Sisiutil commits to, there's the prospect of an interesting Shadow game going the other way.

That is a very cool idea. You could have 3 shadow games, couldn't you? Since I'm considering 4 different sites for the capital. That might be overkill, though.

To be honest, I sometimes play "shadow games" of a sort with my own off-line games. That is, I'll sometimes go back several turns if I feel like a particular strategy could have played out better. I am, in fact, a little more hesitant about war in my off-line games. I often procrastinate until I have X number of units, or finish researching a military tech and build/upgrade to the units it enables, before attacking, when I really should just declare war and get on with it. I'll sometimes reload a save from 100 years or so earlier and kick myself (and my units) in the pants.

How fortunate that in the ALC series I have all of you to push and prod me into action!

 

[Sisiutil]

Might I also point out that the last time I made such a crazy-f*** move of the capital site was in the Kublai Khan game? My best score EVAR? Just sayin'.

 

[futurehermit]

There once was this guy who suggested that Ragnar would take feudalism off of the oracle and to rush asap instead of settling another city.

And everyone laughed at him and said to settle the other city first.

Then the game went in the tank after Ragnar took feudalism off of the oracle.

Now here is the same guy strongly urging to settle 1NW to have an uber capital and despite having some fan support this time, he is still being ignored

j/k settle where you'd like and have fun with this one. BtS rocks and the new big and small map (i also like hemispheres) is excellent.

 

[xanadux]

I can't believe I'm reading this. 1N of the gold is horrible. Waste 3 turns for a bad capital? At least be reasonable and be considering 1NW from start or 1E of gold.

 

[ori]

Just my 2 cents regarding the gold:
remember that the new Wonder the Shwedagon Paya (requires Meditation and Aesthetics) has double production speed with GOLD and would allow you to run Pacifism once it is completed - so if you want a wonder early think about this one

- oh and settle in place you'll get the gold soon enough and the income from working those seafood tiles should fuel your research a while (once you get fishing that is)...

 

[ratrangerm]

Yeah, Sisiutil, we remember the Kublai game... and we also remember how you lucked out with uncovering Horseback Riding from a hut.

Seriously, though... I'm not much for moving the settler to 1N of the gold. Sure, you get gold, but consider these factors:

* You will not be able to actually work the gold, and get the research benefit, until you've built a workboat to get either the crab or clam. I don't have numbers off the top of my head, but I wonder how soon you'll be able to actually work the gold and whether or not that will make up for the three turns of lost time in moving your settler to get there.
* You will still have to move your capital somewhere else because it's not ideal land for cottaging. There are mostly plains squares surrounding where your capital would be. So then you would be working mostly coast squares, which can generate decent commerce, but not what you could get from working cottages that grow into towns, particularly when they are along a river.

That being said, if you are determined to move your city, you better build the workboat first, not the worker. You need that extra food from either the crab or clam so you can work the gold.

As far as research goes, fishing and BW as first and second are the way I would go. After that, GET POTTERY. Cottages or not, you need to get those granaries up and running. As I recall one person pointing out last time, you delayed pottery for too long because you didn't need cottages, forgetting that granaries play to Peter's Expansive strength.

Unless BTS changed things, you can get Pottery through Fishing and The Wheel, so with Fishing in hand, you just need Wheel.

Then I'd grab Writing, as regardless of whether you take gold city to start, that and the second seafood city will be your first two and other worker techs can wait. After that, when you start preparing for city No. 3, you can then pursue the Worker techs needed for that city.