ALC Game 18 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Isabella

[Scarredroman]

Hey, the question was about the techs on the Theology path not the research order.

I agree with you that several early religions are not a priority for Sisiutil. If Huanyac's around, you can forget Stonehenge and GW. Mining and Bronze would be my preferred techs researched after Polytheism.

Is it possible to guess the hidden copper or horses resource from the opening shot?

 

[madscientist]

Hey, the question was about the techs on the Theology path not the research order.

No offense meant. I was just bringing up the point about ignoring defense too much trying to get theology ASAP. That's a long tech route for an oraacle slingshot for theology and really unnecessary

I agree with you that several early religions are not a priority for Sisiutil. If Huanyac's around, you can forget Stonehenge and GW. Mining and Bronze would be my preferred techs researched after Polytheism.

Hyuana does not always get stonehenge, my recent Churchhill game I got both oracle and stonehenge before Hyuana by chopping forrests

Is it possible to guess the hidden copper or horses resource from the opening shot?

If you start in a heavily forrested area and there is one plains or grassland without any, it is likely that copper, iron, or horses are there. Not always, But I have observed this often enough.

 

[slobberinbear]

If you want to lightbulb Theology (or have the option), Meditation has to be researched because that's the first tech the GP gives.

True. Working in Meditation would be required if Sis was planning on bulbing Theology from the Stonehenge-generated Great Prophet.

So we have a few avenues to get Theology:

1. Build Stonehenge. Tech up to Writing, Monotheism, Meditation, and Priesthood. Use the Stonehenge Great Prophet to lightbulb Theology. Use free Oracle tech on Metal Casting, Code of Laws, or Monotheism. Use second Great Prophet to build Christian Shrine.

1a. As above, but use Oracle tech on Theology and use first prophet for shrine, settling second prophet in holy city.

2. Don't build Stonehenge. Tech up to Writing and Monotheism. Use free Oracle tech on Theology. Use prophet for shrine.

Option 1 means not tying the Oracle to Theology, which has the advantage of allowing you to build it sooner without having to wait for Writing and Monotheism, but it delays getting Theology until the prophet appears and you've completed Meditation.

Option 1a gets you Theology faster (don't have to wait for Meditation) but you lose the ability to grab another expensive tech from the Oracle. You also can't complete the Oracle until after you've researched Writing and Monotheism.

Option 2 gets you Theology the fastest and lets you save your hammers on stonehenge (and proabably build another settler instead), but you miss out on an early prophet and an alternate freebie Oracle tech.

I would keep all the options open, but I confess a preference for option 1 if you can pull it off without hampering your early expansion too much. Usually you can get Theology first if you bulb/Oracle it, so there's not a giant rush there. I love being able to get Theology and Metal Casting super-early.

 

[viinno]

Only question left, that I can see, when do we see the starting position ? wouldnt that help decide strategy a bit better?

Not that I`m being sarcastic or anything here of course.

 

[madscientist]

True. Working in Meditation would be required if Sis was planning on bulbing Theology from the Stonehenge-generated Great Prophet.

So we have a few avenues to get Theology:

1. Build Stonehenge. Tech up to Writing, Monotheism, Meditation, and Priesthood. Use the Stonehenge Great Prophet to lightbulb Theology. Use free Oracle tech on Metal Casting, Code of Laws, or Monotheism. Use second Great Prophet to build Christian Shrine.

1a. As above, but use Oracle tech on Theology and use first prophet for shrine, settling second prophet in holy city.

2. Don't build Stonehenge. Tech up to Writing and Monotheism. Use free Oracle tech on Theology. Use prophet for shrine.

Option 1 means not tying the Oracle to Theology, which has the advantage of allowing you to build it sooner without having to wait for Writing and Monotheism, but it delays getting Theology until the prophet appears and you've completed Meditation.

Option 1a gets you Theology faster (don't have to wait for Meditation and Priesthood) but you lose the ability to grab another expensive tech from the Oracle. You also can't complete the Oracle until after you've researched Writing and Monotheism.

Option 2 gets you Theology the fastest and lets you save your hammers on stonehenge (and proabably build another settler instead), but you miss out on an early prophet and an alternate freebie Oracle tech.

I would keep all the options open, but I confess a preference for option 1 if you can pull it off without hampering your early expansion too much. Usually you can get Theology first if you bulb/Oracle it, so there's not a giant rush there. I love being able to get Theology and Metal Casting super-early.

I agree to keep all options open.

One other point is he attempts to get theology from the oracle, and does not build stonehenge it's a disaster if someone else builds the oracle first. The only way then to get the great prophet in time is if he founds one of the early relgions, builds a temple, and run the priest specialist. Or tech theology the old fashioned way which will put him way behind in build the AP.

I have had AIs beat me to the oracle often enough, but only once did I miss theology when building a great prophet.

 

[Scarredroman]

Theology requires both monotheism and writing. Monotheism requires masonery and polytheism. From those techs priesthood opens up writing. The tech path is necessary.

You're too right, it does ignore defence and every time I've tried something similar I have had barbarians at the gate.

 

[slobberinbear]

Theology requires both monotheism and writing. Monotheism requires masonery and polytheism. From those techs priesthood opens up writing. The tech path is necessary.

My point in option 2 is that you can skip Meditation, which is not necessary if you are getting Theology from the Oracle rather than from a prophet. Priesthood is required, of course, to build the Oracle itself.

You're too right, it does ignore defence and every time I've tried something similar I have had barbarians at the gate.

In my proposed tech order, we've got bronze working and animal husbandry. No question that's a slight gamble in the event there is no copper or horse tile within reach. We are also counting on City 2 to produce units to defend the capitol (and City 3, if built). Two or three chariots or axes are sufficient to deal with most barb problems.

But if there are no horses or copper, Sis may have to take a detour to get hunting and archery just to be safe.

On a related note, in some of my games on Monarch, I have noticed that a single warrior escort for a settler can be insufficient. One barb archer (or a pair of panthers, yeowch) can ruin your whole game. Yet another reason to build chariots .. at speed 2, they're fast enough to keep up with the settlers and strong enough to deal with barbs and animals.

 

[madscientist]

You're too right, it does ignore defence and every time I've tried something similar I have had barbarians at the gate.

Both Indian leaders can handle this well (I know not what this ALC game is about). Tech polytheism, BW, masonry and start chopping out the great wall (fast workers) while teching monotheism. If you are lucky enough you will not have to worry about barbarians with the great wall, have 2 founded religions, and get a great prophet by running priest specialists to dilute the great spy. If you have copper nearby you can tech/bulb all the way down the religion path and get all but the missed early religion. You need a little luck and stone helps. Once you get the religions squared away both Indians make superb mid-late game war-mongers, Asoka with Spir/Org traits and Ghandi can tech real fast being PHIL.

Sorry if this went off the Isabella discussion.

 

[madscientist]

On a related note, in some of my games on Monarch, I have noticed that a single warrior escort for a settler can be insufficient. One barb archer (or a pair of panthers, yeowch) can ruin your whole game. Yet another reason to build chariots .. at speed 2, they're fast enough to keep up with the settlers and strong enough to deal with barbs and animals.

I have learned to build 2 warriors before my first settler. I send the settler out with both warriors leaving the capital undefended and send one back after the "package" is delivered.

 

[mudphud]

Theology requires both monotheism and writing. Monotheism requires masonery and polytheism. From those techs priesthood opens up writing. The tech path is necessary.

You're too right, it does ignore defence and every time I've tried something similar I have had barbarians at the gate.

That was my experience in a game I tried with the same settings. Building the oracle wasn't a problem (I had marble) but no horses or copper made it pretty hairy while waiting for hunting/archery - had to rebuild a lot of tile improvements and whip out warriors for city defense.

 

[lukep]

I have learned to build 2 warriors before my first settler. I send the settler out with both warriors leaving the capital undefended and send one back after the "package" is delivered.

often faster and safer to build only one warrior but send him in advance fortified on a forested tile nearby the spot. this way you fogbust away the barbs, but the settler use his 2 moves

 

[slobberinbear]

Okay, an update after starting a test game with Sis' settings:

1. Masonry/Polytheism/Priesthood/Monotheism is a fairly expensive path in the early game that gives you no immediate payoff unless you have stone or marble in your borders
2. getting out Stonehenge first results in one less city and less research output for the tech path above
3. you do have to get something other than warriors for barb defense
4. Popping Theology from a great prophet (from Stonehenge and/or Oracle) is Q.E.D., assuming you take the tech path listed in 1., plus Meditation and Writing. The AI doesn't rush to Theology.

All things considered, I would chop/pop rush Stonehenge and the Oracle in the same city (for GPP goodness) ASAP, using the Oracle free tech on Metal Casting, Code of Laws, or Monarchy and waiting for the Great Prophet to pop Theology. If you try to grab Theology with the Oracle, you run the risk of not being able to tech up to Monotheism and Writing before someone else builds it.

Popping Theology from a Prophet gives you the added bonus of being able to get some other defensive techs online; you can take a little more time to get to Monotheism doing it this way. And you'll still have enough GPPs to get a second prophet for the shrine.

An alternative would be to simply skip Stonehenge, build more early cities and go for Oracle quickly, grabbing Monarchy super-early and popping right into hereditary rule, then using the prophet for Theology.

*EDIT* oh, and I'd like to put in a vote for no Fractal maps. They are just too random on the good land and resources, as you saw in Peter the first time. My vote is for Hemispheres, which for some odd reason I like better than continents though I couldn't say why precisely.

 

[ratrangerm]

My personal thoughts on the tech path would be like this:

First, if the decision is to grab one of the early religion techs, then take Poly. If not, take worker techs. Ideally, Mining and BW will be at the top of the worker tech lists because production, forest chops and slavery are all ideal.

If the starting point includes seafood, then other worker techs could wait as Izzy starts with Fishing. If not, then it needs to be judged based on what's there. Ideally, grain appears so Ag is all that's needed; otherwise, it's likely AH and that requires either Ag or Hunting.

At any rate, I'd say Mining and BW come after Poly, or if we forget the two early religion techs and go for Monotheism, take Mining/BW first, then go Poly/Masonry/Monotheism, working in "food" worker techs if any are needed.

After that, head to Priesthood for Oracle, then Writing, and now you can get Theology from Oracle. While Oracle is built, get Wheel and Pottery so granaries can be built and take advantage of the Expansive trait, or pick up other worker techs before Wheel/Pottery.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

You sure you can get an early religion? You're playing on Monarch and in BTS there are a lot of leaders that start with Mysticism. I wouldn't even try Meditation and go for Polytheism as the best hope for a real early religion. Even if you miss both, you should be able to snag Monotheism. Founding Christianity with that would make more sense anyway.

 

[Baldas]

An alternative would be to simply skip Stonehenge

I would skip Stonehenge. Sisiutil won't need it for cultural border pops because he'll have religion, so it's only useful for GP points. Although these are useful, I think the hammers spent on Stonehenge would be better spent on something else. Oracle and a cheap temple/priest (Isabella is spiritual) give GP points. Even Sisiutil can't do everything, after all.

 

[TRJS]

Even Sisiutil can't do everything, after all.

Shh, he'll hear you and stop posting.

 

[Scarredroman]

It is feasible, I think, to take Stonehenge and Oracle. The free monument is not to be sniffed at.

I tihnk an important question is will a second city (or more) be founded before Christianity is founded? I suppose that will have to wait until the start and the resources available in the BFC are known.

 

[Hristo]

I demand an update!

 

[Killroyan]

I don't want an update, I want the freaking starting location Always the most exciting part of the game. I would love to see another cultural victory if you go for all the early religions and go lightbulbing stuff like theology.

 

[madscientist]

My personal thoughts on the tech path would be like this:

First, if the decision is to grab one of the early religion techs, then take Poly. If not, take worker techs. Ideally, Mining and BW will be at the top of the worker tech lists because production, forest chops and slavery are all ideal.

If the starting point includes seafood, then other worker techs could wait as Izzy starts with Fishing. If not, then it needs to be judged based on what's there. Ideally, grain appears so Ag is all that's needed; otherwise, it's likely AH and that requires either Ag or Hunting.

At any rate, I'd say Mining and BW come after Poly, or if we forget the two early religion techs and go for Monotheism, take Mining/BW first, then go Poly/Masonry/Monotheism, working in "food" worker techs if any are needed.

After that, head to Priesthood for Oracle, then Writing, and now you can get Theology from Oracle. While Oracle is built, get Wheel and Pottery so granaries can be built and take advantage of the Expansive trait, or pick up other worker techs before Wheel/Pottery.

I 100% agree with this post.

Getting both stonehenge and oracle are not that difficult providing there are forrests to chop and 2 commerce seafood are arround to speed up teching mining/BW after polytheism.