ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

[Scaphism]

Alphabet is definitely the tech needed to create spy units.
A mission that's successful should transport the spy back to Madrid, unless there's something I've missed.

There's not much need for spears or archers - Charlemagne doesn't have horses anymore and archers would be fairly pointless right now. Swords aren't bad but with 18 axes versus 1 city, even a city on a hill (and a new capital) it should only take 10-12, less if he uses a spy to eliminate defenses for a turn.


At worst, building a spy will let you peek into Charlemagne's city before the army marches and a DOW is made. If Sisiutil strikes quickly (within 15 turns) he should be able to attack before the Iron is hooked up - and if he has a spy he'll know if it's connected, and have the option to destroy it.

I don't think a spy is necessary to get the job done - we certainly made do before BTS - but it's a good option that Sisiutil has at his disposal.

 

[oyzar]

it cost alot of points to do a revolt... often the equivalent of like 5-6 ancient era techs...

 

[Percy]

it cost alot of points to do a revolt... often the equivalent of like 5-6 ancient era techs...

Huh? No way. More like half of the cost of an ancient era tech. You must be confusing "Support City Revolt" with "Spread your culture" or something. The culture thing does cost you an arm and a leg.

 

[slobberinbear]

Frankly, I'm not sure it even matters if Charlie gets Vienna's iron hooked up. Charlie's protective archers on a hill city are going to be tougher for Spain's Army of the Inquisition than any melee unit the HRE could crank out.

A spy may indeed get the deed done quicker and cheaper (provided there are enough EPs to do it), and Sisiutil has 10 turns now to build the spy and get him in position. The remaining army will then be very handy in the post-war period for garrison/hereditary rule purposes and to keep up the power rating so Pacal and Lizzie don't get any bright ideas ...

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I return to an old suggestion in view of the success of the early attacks on HRE and the multiple religions Sis has. From an educational point of view and in the spirit of variety and consistent with Izzy's religious zeal how about the following:

WIN BOTH A RELIGIOUS AND A CULTURAL VICTORY!

To do this I suggest you first play for a religious victory and try to get it. I agree that under the current version of BTS this is a somewhat "cheesy" victory option, but it is part of the game and we would all benefit from learning more about how best to achieve it. If you fail to achieve a religious victory, then you continue on with the pursuit of a cultural victory.

If you achieve the religious victory, you do the unthinkable - you reload a recent save. When you replay the last few turns you deliberately avoid calling for a religious vote and victory, and proceed to pursue your cultural victory.

While this sounds wacky, I wonder whether it would be the most educational and interesting option available at this point.

So Sis, what sayest thou?

 

[Black_Waltz]

I didn't mention in my last post. But going for the exploitative AP win would be very against what I've seen Mr S's (I don't even know how to spell his name let alone pronounce it) gameplay to be like. By all means. Build it. Experiment with the resolutions, keep it out of the Jewish blocs hands - but don't abuse such a horrible exploit.

 

[Percy]

but don't abuse such a horrible exploit.

I remember a recent thread where some people would actually stand up to me and a couple of others and say that the AP victory condition is "perfectly fine"

 

[ratrangerm]

Quick question, and it may have been asked as I skimmed a few posts as I play catch-up on this thread.

How many turns would it take Sis to research Monotheism on his own? He has a long way to go to get to Currency and I worry that somebody could get there before he does and thus he doesn't have the bargaining chip for Mono. I know Lizzie is Financial, and if I'm not mistaken, so is Pacal, so both could be pursuing Currency.

Let's not forget Mono is desirable for Organized Religion and helping to get those Courthouses out faster, as well as Markets once Currency is researched. Also, there's the advantage of building missionaries without building monastaries, which will help with spreading Sis's religion of choice.

 

[kniteowl]

Charlie is protective and will likely start gunning for Feudalism. Then we'll have to deal with protective longbows on hilled cities. Also

Longbows? there still a bit of time before he reaches that tech, he doesn't even have monarchy yet, which is required for feudalism, even if he does make a beeline it'll take a very long time to tech with only 1 city and as everyone else say he'll be busy rexing so therefore will not be working commerce tiles. Sisutil will make it before then.

 

[slobberinbear]

Longbows? there still a bit of time before he reaches that tech, he doesn't even have monarchy yet, which is required for feudalism, even if he does make a beeline it'll take a very long time to tech with only 1 city and as everyone else say he'll be busy rexing so therefore will not be working commerce tiles. Sisutil will make it before then.

I haven't checked the save to see if Charlemagne has Monarchy.

The point is that If Sisiutil waits for catapults, Charlie will do what he can to get Longbows while REXing to 3-4 cities. That's what he does, particularly as a Protective leader. Who's to say he won't get it from Pacal, Sitting Bull, or Lizzie? I'm not saying it's imminent, only that it's a risk -- and an unnecessary one at that. Why not take Charlemagne out now, with the forces on hand plus a spy or some swords, while it is is feasible and eliminates him now when he is more easily beaten?

I fail to see the benefit of waiting as you suggest, particularly when Sisiutil has the army already built and quite nearby.

 

[slobberinbear]

Quick question, and it may have been asked as I skimmed a few posts as I play catch-up on this thread.

How many turns would it take Sis to research Monotheism on his own? He has a long way to go to get to Currency and I worry that somebody could get there before he does and thus he doesn't have the bargaining chip for Mono. I know Lizzie is Financial, and if I'm not mistaken, so is Pacal, so both could be pursuing Currency.

Let's not forget Mono is desirable for Organized Religion and helping to get those Courthouses out faster, as well as Markets once Currency is researched. Also, there's the advantage of building missionaries without building monastaries, which will help with spreading Sis's religion of choice.

The consensus appears to be to research or trade for monotheism and then use the saved prophet on hand to lightbulb Theology. And I don't think you need to sell Sisiutil on the benefits of OR ... it's his fave religious civic, judging by past ALCs. It's almost like a free forge in every city with the state religion.

 

[Baldas]

Why not take Charlemagne out now, with the forces on hand plus a spy or some swords, while it is is feasible and eliminates him now when he is more easily beaten?

I fail to see the benefit of waiting as you suggest, particularly when Sisiutil has the army already built and quite nearby.

I agree, don't let him build more cities. All you need is a couple of spies and the axes you already have. Some of the axes will be lost, but that's what they are for, plus dead axemen don't get wages so it will help your economy.

 

[popejubal]

To do this I suggest you first play for a religious victory and try to get it. I agree that under the current version of BTS this is a somewhat "cheesy" victory option, but it is part of the game and we would all benefit from learning more about how best to achieve it. If you fail to achieve a religious victory, then you continue on with the pursuit of a cultural victory.

I would like to see Sisiutil sleaze a Religious victory. I know it's cheap, but I'd like to see how it works out.

I expect you'll be Buddhist or Hindu for the majority of the game. Switch to Christian just before the Apostolic Palace is built, spread Christianity to the rest of your cities that don't have it. Get Christian cities in each of the remaining civs and then BLAM. Win.

...and then reload from the point just before you switch to Christianity to finish the game "for real".

This is an ALC. That's supposed to showcase each leader's particular talents. Getting an especially early win seems like a showcase of the Religious Victory even if that isn't exclusive to Isabel and I think it would be very instructive to see how that compares to the "real" win that you end up with. I especially would like to see this to see if there are any snags that make this "cheap" win a lot more difficult than many of us expect.

It's extra work for Sisiutil since it does require that an extra round be played (and then abandoned), but if the man is willing, then I'll certainly admit that my virtual flesh is weak.

 

[Bast]

Sorry but I'm not understanding why people are advocating a victory condition that they find to be an exploit.

It's clearly a problem with the game and I think we should call for them to fix it rather than teaching people to exploit it further.

I would like to learn to win better conquest, domination, space race and culture victories because these are real victories with no cheap tricks attached. But I don't want learn to do cheap tricks and get a diplomatic victory. No thanks.

 

[carl corey]

The thing is, not everybody agrees that winning an AP diplomatic victory is an exploit. I say it is, and that the AP is broken in many other ways, but this game might allow people to see just how broken (or not) it is. Sisiutil might consider playing on if he doesn't feel like he really won the game, and just never choose the diplomatic victory option. He will most probably stay AP resident for the length of the game so there's no danger in anyone else calling for a diplomatic victory vote. All in all, let's see how this unfolds and if the next patch will change the way the AP works we'll just adapt. It's not like this has never happened before: they added Maths for Civil Service, changed the Great Prophet lightbulbing order so as to make a Civil Service beeline nearly impossible, changed the Great Wall from 2 Great Engineer points per turn to 1, to name the examples that come to mind.

 

[Bast]

The thing is, not everybody agrees that winning an AP diplomatic victory is an exploit. I say it is, and that the AP is broken in many other ways, but this game might allow people to see just how broken (or not) it is. Sisiutil might consider playing on if he doesn't feel like he really won the game, and just never choose the diplomatic victory option. He will most probably stay AP resident for the length of the game so there's no danger in anyone else calling for a diplomatic victory vote. All in all, let's see how this unfolds and if the next patch will change the way the AP works we'll just adapt. It's not like this has never happened before: they added Maths for Civil Service, changed the Great Prophet lightbulbing order so as to make a Civil Service beeline nearly impossible, changed the Great Wall from 2 Great Engineer points per turn to 1, to name the examples that come to mind.

That's true. But the very idea of religious/diplomatic victory needs to be changed imo. Because right now, if you want that you go to war. Sorry, that job's already been filled by conquest and to a lesser extent domination.

 

[Ankh]

About victory conditions, I find it amazing that so many consider the true way to win a game of civ is by dominion. Only the true glorious manage a conquest win. If you can't win by dominion it's ok to settle for a space race but it's not as cool as the former. Winning with the UN is boring and it's really not considered as a real win, culture is fun once and on the bottom of the sea is the AP that's just plain broken.

 

[Bast]

About victory conditions, I find it amazing that so many consider the true way to win a game of civ is by dominion. Only the true glorious manage a conquest win. If you can't win by dominion it's ok to settle for a space race but it's not as cool as the former. Winning with the UN is boring and it's not really considered a real win and on the bottom of the sea is the AP that's just plain broken.

I'm a bit of an idealist I think when it comes to this game. Space race is imo a legitimate victory. It's something you can work on from Turn 1. For me, it's reminiscent of the Age of Discovery when Western European nations competed with each other to reach and colonize the new world. For me, that's what space race is about. I can see a legitimate victory condition attached to an achievement like that.

This is why I can see a religious victory condition with something like the Charlemagne scenario but not with the way it currently works in the game.

 

[Whitedragon]

Exploiting the AP is just like exploiting the UN. If Sisiutil chooses to go for a diplomatic win, I hope that he will go for a true diplomatic win instead of just seeding his religion into low population cities for an easy win.

I'm pretty sure that easy wins do not factor into his planning at all. After all we've seen him do, I'm sure that he will make things as hard for himself as he can.

 

[Percy]

But the very idea of religious/diplomatic victory needs to be changed imo.

As you said, "imo". It's an opinion, not a definite fact, it would seem. As it stands, i agree with you that the AP is completely broken. I think it would be great that Sisiutil pursues this victory condition, to show how damagingly broken it can be when played well. On another thread on this subject, i've been challenged to "do this on emperor if it's that easy". Well, i answered i couldn't play emperor at all, so i couldn't prove such a thing. But if an SG manages a very early win with the AP, doing exactly the right things to abuse it at its max, i think it can become a proof that it is broken. So that's useful to me.
And as it has been pointed out, there's always the possibility of replaying the ending to a more normal game.