ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Shigga]

Hm, move the scout and have a look how many forest tiles he reveals. The forest will bring you safely to the moais, especially if you plan on building early wonders. OTOH, gaining the water tiles will be huge with the moais. The 2 additional clams are only the sugar on top, even with only two it is enough to reach the happiness cap quickly- oh, another one for settling in place since you want the pyramids for the xtra happiness. Then again, the hill will give you more hammers on the base tile. Ah, tough decision.

Well, my playstyle is leaning towards sustainability, so I vote for going to the hill 1W.

 

[oldsaxon]

For wonders:

- Ragnar is not creative, and doesn't start with Mysticism. So, I recommend Stonehenge or Judaism. Why do I suggest Judaism? Because you're going to research Mysticism (for culture) and Masonry (for Stone) anyway, so you're halfway there.

- Of the others, the Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse stand out early on. The Pyramids for early rep... or even US at times (remember, you'll be hammer-poor). The Great Lighthouse so that all your dozens of 'fishing villages' provide more of a boost to your economy.

- Clearly, many of the others are great too. Kremlin helps with Slavery or US. If you get Judaism, the Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore come into play. Angkor Watt would allow you to run better specialists in your Fishing Villages. Also, as long as you have a few cities at the time, the 1pop/city from the Hanging Gardens will give you more hammers than you spent on the wonder.

Essentially, I think Wonders will be a continual option throughout the early game. Add to that that you don't really plan your 'big' warring push until Riflemen/Grenadiers, and I think you should build at least a couple of them with Stone.

 

[oldsaxon]

The Scout: East then South-East, no question at all in my mind here.

The Settler: 1W is attractive for early Stone and 4 Clams. However, 4 Clams is really wasted on a city unless you're making a Globe Theatre Slavery/Drafting centre. In addition, the basic rule for Archipelago (well, I play Tiny Islands) is that 1 food resource makes a viable city.

By settling in place and not claiming the two Western clams, you not only make more land available in your capital, you also create two later cities on those tiles visible to the far West. If you can get Stonehenge/Judaism and the Great Lighthouse, these cities will expand their borders quickly and provide trade routes from the start, paying for themselves at once.

Settle in place, build the Great Lighthouse, and create two more cities with those extra (oh-so-precious) clams at a later date.

 

[cabert]

I debated with myself sedttling on the stone or not, and decided to "vote" (hey, it's not democracy here, it's sisiutil's game) against.
Why? because less river tiles is really a loss.

 

[slaze]

wow, there both pretty strong openings. i can see both making for an interesting game. I still think in place has the more food balance and production essentially. 1W doesn't have the brakes for all that food, it becomes a moai statues city instead of the capitol, as unless you can rush to monarchy or something, you'll have to neglect a clam (or 2) and force yourself into slavery when in place has the tiles that negate slavery anyway.

 

[Andvare]

Settle on stone for extra and 3 ? Dunno.

Spoiler :

But there is the problem with isolation, yes, Sisiutil is isolated.
Also, he'll lose two ivory by settling 1W, and the stone of course. I would personally restart, as there is no contact with anyone until galleons.

 

[Peluin]

I'd settle in place. This game is probably going to last fairly long, and production cities might be hard to come by. In the long run the production from the quarried stone + the extra land tiles will overtake settling on the stone, and I'm sure we can find another suitable location for the Moai Statues on an archipelago map

 

[Gliese 581]

It's always tempting to get the fastest possible start and I agree that it would be fun to settle on the stone, however, one cannot stress the importance of production in the capital enough and building the moai statues there just to compensate for settling in a production-poor slot would not be the best move imo. There are enough national wonders you want in your capital usually and the statues are better left for a small island, remember that this is archipelago, we shouldn't be casual about ANY potential production cities, we will soon wish we had dikes as it is..
IF there's no more hidden resources and the missing tiles consist of two grasslands and a forest, moving 1W would mean the loss of 10 hammers. Those grasslands can be converted to farms for +3 food pre biology compared to coast tiles. So moving west would then in total give +3 food and some commerce. I don't think the tradeoff is good.

I completely forgot about work boats in my build sequence, so yes of course, workboatsx2 first, then worker, settler, troops, stonehenge, gw depending on circumstances, but yes probably unnecessary after all. The GL would of course be nice, The Pyramids can wait for another settler or so.

 

[oyzar]

Since there is no better start than stone on a plains hill i find it hard to believe that the first start you got were better. You also have a river... Unless you find irrigates corn where you say i belive you should move on top of the stone plains hill. 8 turns before first border pop gives 8*4=32 which leaves 13 which means 3 more turns assuming you work the elephants at least 1 turn. This leaves you 21 food which means it is 3 turns to grow to size 2. Compare this to the settle in place start it is 1 more turn to complete the workboat and 8 turns(if you title swap to get at least 1 food) to grow to size two). Before you get to monarchy the extra titles you get by settling in place won't matter anyways and by then the stone plains hill start will be so far ahead it is not funny. Continuing the example it is then 9 hammers invested into the boat which means 36 remaining 36 food to grow to next pop. Working the flood plains for 2 turns and the elephants for 6 turns will yield 28 food and a workboat. Then just work the two clams for 2 turns to size 3 before working 2 clams + 1 floodplains to size 4 for 7 turns to grow to size 4 exactly putting 27 hammers into the workboat. At size work on the worker one turn before whipping 2 pop giving another 8 overflow. If you swich one of the clams into an elephant 1 turn you will grow to size 3 at the same time as you get the 3rd clams. Alternativly you can just chop 1 forest which will give you a headstart on the next boat + defending warrior.. Wheel is probably the next tech to hook up the elephants so you can grow to size 6 before starting churing out settlers and workers, working the 4 clams + the elephant + the plains hill you should get nuts production and can expand quickly going worker worker settler after you get out some fogbusting warriors(assuming you have copper nearby). If you don't have copper you can just go for archery since with such commerce hooked up(you are working 5 3 commerce titles after all..) It will be pretty cheap. This will lead to something similar to http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248435 this start. Notice that you shouldn't follow the path to aestics etc obviously since you probably can't expect to tech to aestics by the time the AI have alpha given the huge tech advantage financial give you with this start.

Of course if you want to wonder spam it might be better to settle in place but i seriously doubt you would want to waste ragnars great traits on this.. Of course you can easily win that way but going to vertical + horizontal expansion route give you way more payoffs for his traits + a probably faster finish.

Given this start colossus is probably a given as is moai statues in the capital.

Notice that my start probably forgo most of the early wonders, though you can get great wall to deal with barbs if you are on a big island...

Spamming wonders forgoing expansion don't seem like a great idea given your traits...

 

[TheArchduke]

Nods, the less wonders the better. Sisutil will build too many of them in any case.

 

[ori]

re wonders: the only one I'd definitely go for is the one you don't mention

Statue of Zeus - double speed with elephants and you make sure the war weariness penalty is not your problem but the AIs' - wars on archipelago can take a while

all the rest is war anyway

 

[carl corey]

I've never played Archipelago, but Statue of Zeus does indeed make sense. I wouldn't go for the Great Wall; come on, how many barbs are going to show up anyway? But the Pyramids sure seem interesting as a capital set on the stone will be one heck of a GP farm.

 

[Munch]

I'd certainly settle in place:

# More hammer output from the stone tile.
# More non-water tiles for your capital.
# The other clam resources are possibly next to small islands or a peninsula, when you settle such a water-heavy area, you'll be glad of having clam if there's not much else there, and then you can build Maoi Statues on a small island/peninsula with far more water tiles than your capital; your capital could do with much better national wonders anyway.

As for builds, I'd get two workboats out as fast as possible, and forego building a worker straight away. Why?

# Building workboats doesn't stunt your city growth.
# Work those clams for the Financial bonus!
# You probably won't be in need of a warrior/archer straight away on this map type.
# That extra commerce could really help you get ancient techs quickly.
# Use your early teching power to get Masonry and Monotheism, hopefully the sea tile commerce will bag you a religion. But which one to choose? I say Hinduism, ooh, or Tao!

What about stone-accelerated wonders?

# If you do bag a religion, Stonehenge would be a great asset (culture and early shrine). Personally I'd say Stonehenge is a definite to try for.
# Pyramids aren't so critical as I imagine you'll be going cottage-mad. Still, I really like running Hereditary Rule instead of Representation if I get the Pyramids and am not going for specialist-spam; I don't know how useful that would be in this scenario though, as you may have few healthiness resources to compliment your unlimited happy-cap.
# Great Wall? Nah, that's just decadence. Of course it has a use, but on archipelago it's not that handy. Spy points would be nice for an early settled Great Spy, but that could interfere with getting a Great Prophet for your (potential) religion opportunity. Plus the wall would probably just look silly; it's visible from space, have some dignity.
# As for other wonders, come on, it's only the first turn! See how it plays out.

In summary: Work Boats ASAP while you research to Masonry, then go all out for Monotheism while building a worker, then Stonehenge once that quarry is up. Simple!

 

[Boodler]

Hi all !

First time poster in the ALC series and looking forward how this one will go.

I suggest settling at place. Ragnar is financial, using the - to me - surprisingly large number of river tiles (as I see the tile 2 south of the settler is also a river tile) would help developing this city - as likely civil service will be a priority, this will make a strong capital with the early bureaucracy.
This way, the place has the chance for a decent production city as well, as settling on the stone probably robs us this chance. Not to mention this way we are not deciding about the fate of the Moai statues in 4.000 bc.

I also like the idea of leaving the two remaining clams available for later cities.
But first of all let's see what the scout will see 1 south east from from the settler.

Stonehenge might be nice for a change of pace--I don't think I've built it in ages.

It is probably time for it now.

 

[absimiliard]

Hell, I'll toss in my $.02.

I say settle in place. Four clams in one city is a bit too much. By settling in place you get more river tiles, and once quarried more hammers in the long run. You also get to share those other two clams out to other cities, notice that there's land near both.

Wonder-wise I would say Great Lighthouse and Colossus are desirable since combined with your traits they'll allow you to basically spam as many coastal cities as you like. Beyond that I don't really have much of an opinion, I'm not usually a wonder-happy kinda guy. Maybe the Great Wall for a quick great spy, a cottage based espionage economy would work very well for a war-monger and a great spy or two would rock for the +100% EPs, but maybe not as well since you don't really care about the barbarian-repellant facet much. Maybe Pyramids for Rep's +3 happy, but I wouldn't do it since they're so damned many hammers that could be going towards other stuff. Remember as well that the Lighthouse isn't cheap, and can't be helped by any resource. So I'd say Lighthouse and Colossus and screw the rest.

Tech-wise. Meh. Seems fairly straightforward. Get the basics for your land, add sailing and metal-casting and then just choose an economy-type and go for what you need.

I do like the idea of an espionage economy for this game. I think financial can power one hell of an EE and that matches well with Ragnar's war-mongering ways. I also like the idea of spies getting to your targets faster via +1 move ships, and dropping defenses for a turn with a spy suits the lightning raid style Ragnar can pursue with his amphibious, agressive, berserkers off-loading from fast ships extremely well.

So there. My $.02, heck, it was a long post, maybe it's $.04 worth of opinion.

-abs

 

[kniteowl]

I'm just gonna talk about wonders... the starting locations have probably been debated to death by the post above me.

To me it's really a toss up between Mids (250H or was it 275H?) or GLH (200H) funny the GLH doesn't have any resource that speeds it up.

Too bad you're not a Phil Civ or you'd pick up Mids and Rush GLH in one go, but I'd personally take the risk at getting Mids and using the GE to to pick up GLH.

You can build both normally but do you really have enough hammers? and what if there's an Industrious Civ after the GLH? They definitely have the advantage.

Other have said that you should use the GE to bulb Machinery, that's probably the better option if you're leaning towards war but only if you have MC, I doubt you'd have MC when your 1st GE pops after building the Mids, it all about timing though.

I'd definitely go for Hanging Gardens though, it's cheap and having that extra health and pop never hurts and Statue of Zeus is a good denial wonder too.

So if you can get Mids, use your GE to get GLH in another city and build the HG too speed up your 2nd GE and use him to bulb Machinery that'd make a good opening game lol.

I'd go Mid not only for Representation but only Police State to combat War weariness in the later game and since you're Agg you'll be warring a lot and it will help cut down unhappiness, the extra production is a nice bonus too.

I don't think SH is necessary on a Sneaky Continents Map?... Blocking the AI expanding towards you area should be easy, unless you want the other benefits.

Colossus lifespan is just too short and obsoletes with an awkward tech, Astronomy gives you a Naval Advantage on Ocean tiles to most ships and you definitely don't want to delay that especially on this kind of map therefore Colossus is more of an optional wonder, you can build it but do the pros outweigh the cons?

 

[Indiansmoke]

I'd settle on the stone, the extra hammers on the capital and the 2 extra seafood is nothing to laugh at. Moai statues will make up for any lost production from the land tiles.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Too bad you're not a Phil Civ or you'd pick up Mids and Rush GLH in one go, but I'd personally take the risk at getting Mids and using the GE to to pick up GLH.

GLH tends to get nabbed early on even on lower levels and more so on this kind of map where most, if not all civs start coastal. I seriously doubt GLH is doable with mids engineer.

 

[madscientist]

First of all I think it's obvious to settle in place. Lot's of commerce (Jumbos on river and financial, that's like an electricity power watermill for a non-financial leader) food (2 seafood) and production (Stone, hills). Plus you can drop cottages on the river grasslands and farm the floodplains (4 food) until you hit the happy cap.

Stone Wonders: My experience is that by the time you tech stone and hook it up you could have popped out stonehenge, so that wonder really is no affected much by stone (I could be wronge here though). Pyramids are never a wonder to pass up, especially if yopu have stone. See how the game progresses and decide later if it's worth the time. I think the hanging gardens are one I like for Ragnar. Also that massibe West Point is helped by stone, meaning you can put it into another coastal city (even one with more limited production). Between Ragnars UB, drydocks, and westpoint that city would be a massive navy builder late in the game. To be honest I am more interested in water-bound Ragnar getting the Great Lighthouse and perhaps an early colossus of a metal casting/oracle slingshot.

Build order: Workboat (work the stone for a fast boat) followed by a worker. Limited city growth but worth it for the start.

Tech order: I will be a Jerk and suggest a very different tech route, as you are on and archeopolego board. Archery (that should be all you need unless you have a neighbor on your initial land mass)/Myst/Sailing/Masonry. Mining may be a lower priority, here's my thinking

You have 2 seafood, plenty of food. You'll have 2 jumbos @ 1 food/3 hammers/3 commerce (better than a mine), and a quarried stone. That's alot of commerce and production to the happy cap although you will get another happiness from the Jumbos. Build an early lighthouse for the extra food and the seafood. At that point you have alot of options, military expansion, settler/workers, or wonder building. You'll have protection with the early archers. I think this unorthadox tech path is the fastest way to buildup what your starting terrain is.

 

[kniteowl]

GLH tends to get nabbed early on even on lower levels and more so on this kind of map where most, if not all civs start coastal. I seriously doubt GLH is doable with mids engineer.

There goes my plan out of the window but getting both Mids and GLH by normally building them will be difficult especially on this level, I'd figure GE Mids was another option... ah well.. 400 Hammers is quite an investment...