ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Zanttu]

Wrong, squirrels (skins) were used as a first currency here in Finland. They were valuable trade items for a long time -- Canada is not the only furry place, you know .

Was about to say the same =P. But those furs in the game are beavers though. Squirrels aren't that big

 

[Morgawr]

If it's a choice between Islam and Confucianism I'd definitely go Islam. The followers of Islam are further away and therefore more troublesome to attack in the immediate future. More importantly, Islam is also the religion of the Apostolic Palace and therefore adopting that religion means +2 for each religious building; not something to be knocked back in an archipelago map! Plus, that way you'll potentially avoid any untoward religious crusades coming your way...

I'd go for Islam too. In addition to the AP bonus, Hannibal is highest in score and should be your biggest opponent. Besides, Bismark looks pretty weak and Mehmed + Hammurabi look like a more solid block. Bismark is not very religious anyway so you'll be able to keep your good relations with him, he'll give you only -1 for different religion.

This is all in the hope that these religions spread to you and we have a choice to make.. but even before you get the religions, soon enough Hannibal and Hammurabi will come asking you to stop trading with the other and you'll have to make a choice.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Great game so far, Sis. I have never played this kind of map so I'm sure to learn a lot in this ALC. I think trebs would compliment your berserkers nicely so Engineering should be in your future soon.

When you finish your REX on the home islands [to keep unwanted guests from settling there], it will be time to REX using your berserkers.

Is the usual rush to Liberalism the right strategy here? You have the Mids so you don't need Representation. You plan to choose a religion so you don't need Free Religion. You have Astronomy so you would likely choose Nationalism I suppose. With marble that opens up some more wonders. Ah... choices, choices, choices ...

 

[Munch]

I think trebs would compliment your berserkers nicely so Engineering should be in your future soon.

Spies would work even better! As long as espionage is directed towards the one AI Sisiutil intends to attack ...

 

[Refar]

Trebs can not bombard defences out of a transport - iirc. So using trebs would rewuire the troops to be landed, hence kind of forefitting the Berserkers advantage.

Spy's of course need to be landed too, but Sis could bring them in before attack, and they also can not become victims of ai counterattacks.

 

[LlamaCat]

What happened between turns 211 and 212 that more than doubled your science output and also put your economy into the green (technically the black)? You didn't have Astronomy until a few turns later, so I'm curious where that commerce came from...

that's a good question although I guess it could be any number of things. I'd like to know the answer to this too

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

My two cents on picking targets and also religion blocks to go for. I would try to be friendly with Hanibal and Lizzy since they are easier to be buddies with.

Even though Meh and friends are farther away and have AP remember this IS a water map and you ARE the Vikings. And in fact being farther away helps you and hurts them. You have better navy. water maps also mean you dont HAVE to shlep your army through tons of cultural borders. Go straight for their capitols and best cities and raid and pillage em . If ap is a problem just raze the city that has it first Even longbows might not be too bad again because of the map. You dont have to bring enuff cats for every city. Just a few to suicide out of the galleys to sofen up the cities you want to sack. Or even spies. Spies can even work great since they travel on caravels so they wont take up troop space on galleys just hitch ride on caravel escorts and you can send them in first to sit on their cities for the 1 turn they need to without declaring war. Then have spie do the revolt THEN decalre war and send in the galleys. Maybe do that for the capitol or city where most of their ships are in port and you can take out what navy they have in first attack since they will all sink as soon as your zerker takes out last city defender.

And you wont need garrisons if you know you will only sack what you attack. Other than turn or so after last zerker lands to raze a city your zerkers would be spending whole campaign on their ships . Just bring along empty galleons to act as escorts for your troop ships.

Swoop in sack their best cities swoop out then demand techs for peace or make em lap dogs. Having to many vassals might end up making it hard to stay friends with lizzy and hannibal but if you sack enough of the others best cities to keep em backwards and get privateers going you can blockade em to point they will never catch up or if they do you will have already spread out and be too big

So I wouldnt make big stacks for conquest. Just maybe one big stack with cats and spies and take it on a capitol tour. Sack the capitols and Ap city and any other city that might help em too much but dont take em over just raze em.

Then maybe a few little raider groups of 1 or two galleys full of zerks to go round and sack any close weak cities to keep their area of influence as small as possible and leave room for your to spread out on your own. Maybe an extra empty galley or two with the raiders not just for escort but also for snatching workers .

It would almost be like the real vikings raiding and pillaging then demanding stuff for it to stop for a few years then all over again hehe .

Kaytie <--who votes Sis should name his northern fur city Squirreltown

 

[patagonia]

edit : for those who like a good read about berserkers, go into the SGOTM 4 threads.
Some teams, including the trash team where I played with some fine players (to only manage a ridiculous time loss), tried to bring gandhi to space while being at war with him.

Good work on the Astronomy slingshot, now time to have some fun with it!

SGOTM4 involved some great Berzerker rampages and it's worth having a look at some of the team threads if you get the chance.

Berzerkers with free Drill will make great amphibious raiders when backed up with spies. Siege is a waste as you'll have to land them to see any benefit, but a spy can put a city into revolt right before you declare. The best approach to me seems to be spending 10-15 turns exploring more of the world and working out who you're going to attack first while you get the fur city settled. Then focusing all of your espionage on the first victim while you gear up for war. If necessary a couple of turns running spy specialists with the espionage slider cranked up will sort things out when the time comes.

Picking a religion is going to be a problem because unless you get lucky with spread, you'll have to waste time and effort spreading one around yourself. The only reason for investing the time and effort into that would be so that you can run Theocracy and Nationhood at the same time to be able to draft CR1 Berzerkers (while building CR2 berzerkers). If you envisage protracted war you'll want to pick up drama for culture sliding, and the fish and wine city will make a terrific globe-theatre whip/draft factory (the perfect place to settle a GG or two).

Come to think of it, wouldn't running theocracy allow Ragnar to build navigation 2 ships? That'd make yours sail twice as fast as everyone else's!

 

[Quotey]

Wait, so let me get this clear.

Archipelago map, you started out isolated. You got Astronomy before 800AD, and there are TWO Islamic civs, AND Taoism has not been founded. VERY weird.

 

[Chrispy]

Wait, so let me get this clear.

Archipelago map, you started out isolated. You got Astronomy before 800AD, and there are TWO Islamic civs, AND Taoism has not been founded. VERY weird.

"Choose Religion" is on; DR hasn't been researched yet. Taoism is the odd religion out.

If you look at the Religion advisor in Round 4, Islam was the third religion founded after Buddhism and Confucianism.

 

[KMadCandy]

Come to think of it, wouldn't running theocracy allow Ragnar to build navigation 2 ships? That'd make yours sail twice as fast as everyone else's!

nav 2 takes two promos even for ragnar, because it requires both flanking 1 and nav 1. /sigh.

Quotey: choose your own religion is on, which means whoever learns meditation can pick Islam as the name of that religion instead of Buddhism if they want. it's an option only in BtS. so it can look awfully weird, but Taoism isn't tied to Philosophy at all. Islam in this game was the third religion founded so probably it's the one that came with monotheism, which typically it would be Judaism.

@KMadCandy Your analysis of Sisiutil's game amazes me. Dozens interesting informations. Gotta learn that and take time to look on the map and info screen...

i do that because i can't actually fight wars worth a bean. so i try to figure out who'll like who, and who i can be friends with while not ticking off other people, who's going to be asking me for help beating so-and-so up someday, etc., just for self-preservation *giggle*. S of course doesn't need to live in fear the way that i do, he actually can fight his way out of a paper bag! but i like to check out his games the same way. sometimes i get things be entirely wrong. but don't tell hubby that i admitted that last part, or cabert. let's keep those guys fooled

 

[triacontahedron]

Why not attack Roosevelt as it was mentioned above? He is out there by himself it seems and he does not have feudalism so no LB. You can probably take him out really fast and keep all his cities. Colonial expenses can not be higher then expenses due to distance so if you build forbidden palace on his land mass new cities wont be too much bother. The rest can be taken out with rifles infantry.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

nav 2 takes two promos even for ragnar, because it requires both

It's not as bad as you think: you just need two of: Theocracy, a Great General, Drydock. You will get the GG going to war with your first victim, which is preferable to waiting for Steel.

Anyway, an impressive set of rounds Sisiutil. What are the chances of Roosevelt getting Feudalism before you can build a sizeable army of Beserkers? After Roosevelt though you can afford to go all the way to Chemistry before your next war, since with your current empire+Roosevelt's you can tech there quite easily. At that point you can just steamroll everyone else.

I would strongly suggest going for Military Science rather than Rifling for several reasons:
1. MS is cheaper than Rifling, requires fewer prereqs and is available straight after Chemistry.
2. Grenadiers may have a lower base strength, but this is insignificant with a 85% CR bonus if you go to CRIII. They get a bonus against Riflemen, which is a great advantage because the AI upgrades its Longbowmen should the wars last that long.

Drafting Beserkers is a bad idea, you want all the EXP you can get and you'll only get half if you draft.

 

[cheffster]

I've read through most of this thread, but I haven't read every single post and comment yet, so forgive me if someone has already mentioned this. But since it seems you plan on attacking soon and have built up an army of zerkers, I have a suggestion, get some spies.

I would like to point out that from the Pre-Game thread Sis, you wrote that:

However, Berserkers (like Macemen, the unit on which they're based) appear at the precise moment in the game when city defenses are at their toughest. Walls and a castle give cities big defense bonuses in the medieval era (made worse if my enemy has built Chichen Itza). But the real kicker is that there's absolutely no way to remove those high city defenses from a water unit in that era. That ability doesn't come along until Chemistry and Frigates.

I'm pretty certain there IS a way. SPIES! - Incite revolts on the cities you plan to capture the same turn you attack - and this also removes their defenses for one turn as well.

Now I've never done this amphibiously, but I think it'd work. Load up some caravels with spies, and place 2-3 in the cities you plan on attacking first, and when the Bezerkers arrive and you declare war - Incite revolts on the cities while you're attacking them watch your combats odds go from 25% to 65% - no need to waste as many troops weakening the defenses when you can simply put the cities into revolt and overide the them instead

 

[KMadCandy]

What are the chances of Roosevelt getting Feudalism before you can build a sizeable army of Beserkers?

hmmz. he has the pre-reqs, so he can learn it himself. there's one unknown civ out there, roos might know him but if mystery guy only knows roos, i think they haven't been trading techs. i'll bet you 2 GPs that they're not at friendly, since they're not sharing a religion (christianity is only 9% of the world). in fact, the mystery civ built s. paya so he could be running FR for all i know. and they won't be meeting any time soon (only bis can even learn optics).

of the civs we do know, roos doesn't know any, and when he does meet them all but religion-less isabella crazyeye: what a world!) will consider him a heathen. he has theology, none of them do except hamm, so it's monopoly-ish, otoh both the wonders have been built so that part wouldn't hold him back.

all that yakking to say: i dunno when he'll learn to make longbows .

roos has the great wall, that didn't click with me until today. that will be quite handy when we take it over!

It's not as bad as you think: you just need two of: Theocracy, a Great General, Drydock. You will get the GG going to war with your first victim, which is preferable to waiting for Steel.

theo + 2 GGs, or theo + GG + 1 exp from killing something i think, for the total of 5 points. it's not that it's horrible, it's just not as easy as it seems at first, because of the pesky "knowing nav1 doesn't open nav2 directly" rule.

edit: drafting cuts exp in half, but one spiffy thing about aggressive and that quest reward: even drafted zerkers start with free Combat 1 and Drill 1

 

[Porphyrius]

Validator's plan was a gamble but it seems to pay off swiftly.

Which makes me think about what getting astronomy so early means.
Sure for one we get an economy boost from increased trde route income until everyone switches to merchantilism, which is quite nice.

But for me the biggest deal is Validators initial goal. That is galleons full of berserkers.
Which means we should make accumulating both in numbers THE priority. No fancy stuff, no lets wait till nationalism so we can draft, engineering so we can get trebs etc. And we can and should be ammasing galleons allready rather than setting up more infrustructure, we are in good enough shape as it is.

The goal is 3-4 sea separate stacks of berserkes aiming the strongest coastal cities (likely including the capital) of an AI victim. Considering noone has no more than 8 total cities the war should end surely and quickly, making the most of the element of surprise.
CR2 berserkers will do fine against lbows so long as defences are taken down with spies just before DoW. Ofcourse this means directing science to EP for some turns but we ll get quite a payoff.



Now for the victim i suggest dealing with a strong opponent now rather than later. Possible choises are Hannibal and whoever of the Islamic leadrs has the AP (including the AP city as a target possibly razing it). Hannibal seems a tad safer choice but it leaves the AP to deal with later, that may be trouble depending on what victory we seek. The isolated ones will be back tech and dealt with easily later.


PS: Drafting is appealing for later on a map with so low production. However if we have warred enough and gained land by then, we may not really need it.

PS2: I quite agree that trading iron was allmost foolhardy. Not to mention you got carried away a bit with trading older cheap rather than handy techs. Wasnt CoL available as a trade?

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

theo + 2 GGs, or theo + GG + 1 exp from killing something i think, for the total of 5 points. it's not that it's horrible, it's just not as easy as it seems at first, because of the pesky "knowing nav1 doesn't open nav2 directly" rule.

damn, I forgot GGs only give 2 exp. Drydocks will open them up with Theo/GG, but by then you should have 2 GGs.

 

[Bobbalouie]

You know, this idea of running around the world razing capitals is kinda appealing to me on a RPG level of playstyle. Seeing as Rooseveldt has the holy city to the religion that's spread to your cities, possibly go Christian. And then take the holy city. And then raze everyone else's holy cities, amongst other ones. Might be kinda fun having the only holy city in a world. I suppose it would be best if this was the strat to employ it sooner rather than later, so maybe save rooseveldt for the last in this case.

I wonder, assuming he did the best possible job of it, can he cripple the AI enough by raising choice coastal cities in the world of all the true competition, and then survive the world being mad at him?

 

[blakos]

that's a good question although I guess it could be any number of things. I'd like to know the answer to this too

Maybe the switch to representation???? I haven't looked at the saves etc. But thats what it could be. The extra
from the specialists in the capital.

 

[Scarredroman]

Force observatory and build baracks with the overflow. The pop will go back up, the number of GPs pointswill reamin the same. Send two galleons with swords to take Chinook. Leavethe warrior as garrison.

Next GP in 7 turns when Sis'll have CS. The next GP -GS )73% chance). Should then bulb Philisophy be able to trade for both Feudalism and Theology (Ham will have Divine Right and Taoism - we want that city 'cause you get two hammers for each Taoist building).

Favour attacking Meh-Ham. Hope Confucianism spreads so that it can be the religion for our theocratic vassalage switch.

Favour Guild-Gunpowder-Chemistry-Military Science research route.

Don't know as if you can whip 24 galleons and 72 beserkers before attacking - with Ragnar's current pop.