ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Ultimocrat]

Wow, what a tough decision! Clearly, either 1W or in place leads to a great city, but the focus of the capital would be very different in each case. 1W --> GP farm; in place --> production monster. The right decision depends so much on the surrounding map and what other cities each decision would allow.

This game really demands to be shadowed, and have half of the people play 1W, and the other half play in place.

 

[Indiansmoke]

This start is so good that either in place or on the stone are valid choices.

Regarding the Maoi statutes debate, they don't have to be built early. There are enough hammer tiles to cover production until at least representation (assuming Pyramids). With a size 8-9 capital the statutes will only take a few turns.

 

[Munch]

This start is so good that either in place or on the stone are valid choices.

Regarding the Maoi statutes debate, they don't have to be built early. There are enough hammer tiles to cover production until at least representation (assuming Pyramids). With a size 8-9 capital the statutes will only take a few turns.

But still, building the Maoi statues in this capital only yields 11 bonus hammers, wouldn't it be far better placed in a 1-tile island or peninsula, where you could get around 20+ hammers?

 

[Daedal]

Dangit! I'm 8 hours late to the start of the ALC and already we're on page 4. Now I know Ragnar is neither philosophical nor industrious...but...but... if that start doesn't scream wonderspam, I don't know what does. I only play on prince, but I'm seriously considering trying a shadow game with that start. I just can't stop staring at those 4 clams on a stone plains hill city. With forests in the BFC. And hills. And elephants.

Here's what I'd do... go for mysticism while building a work boat and working clams. Once you grab mysticism, switch to Stonehenge and work max hammers. It should finish in a handful of turns. Then head for masonry while finishing the work boat on max hammers. Work the clams with the boat and the city. City should reach size two quickly. Go for GW max hammers. After that the game can go any way you like. Culture is taken care of, barb shields are up, and your first great person should be in shortly. Personally, I'd settle a great prophet or build SY with a great spy, pump out one settler/escort combo and a worker, then return the capitol to wonder duty building Oracle (if possible, for metal casting), Colossus, GLighthouse, and Pyramids with some more work boats when the opportunity shows itself. SoZ too because we have the elephants. City two should be on expansion duty making settler/escorts and workers. Oh and settle all specialists in the capitol except one GScientist and one GSpy. At least that's what I'd do...

Maoi Statues in the capitol would be nice for production, but better spent in city #2 IMO. As oyzar mentioned, Oxford and NE in the capitol (especially with all those lovely wonders) would be very nice.

Spoiler :

Also somebody mentioned that Sisi is isolated. I'd rather not start a huge debate in spoiler tags (Sisi seems to not like that... ), but an isolated archipelago means we'll need to be self-sufficient in a small area. No trade partners. No sparring partners. What better way to do that than a wonderspam capitol? I recall mentioning this might happen in the pregame thread, but I never expected the geography around the capitol to be so well suited to the task.

 

[Indiansmoke]

But still, building the Maoi statues in this capital only yields 11 bonus hammers, wouldn't it be far better placed in a 1-tile island or peninsula, where you could get around 20+ hammers?

11 hammers with bureocracy is 16-17 hammers I dought that another city will get that much

 

[oldsaxon]

Of course, all of this is really pretty incidental:

Sisutil, move the Scout E->SE, then post the picture.

 

[Ultimocrat]

Sisutil, move the settler E->SE, then post the picture

I assume you mean the scout. But yes, if there's another food resource to the southeast in the BFC, then in-place is truly killer.

if that start doesn't scream wonderspam, I don't know what does

Someone should really play this with Obsolete's wonderspam-settled GP strategy. Colossus and GLH are huge on an archipelago map with financial; and numerous other wonders may make sense, too. (Oracle -> MC, GL as always ...). It could be quite a strong strategy.

 

[madscientist]

I assume you mean the scout. But yes, if there's another food resource to the southeast in the BFC, then in-place is truly killer.



Someone should really play this with Obsolete's wonderspam-settled GP strategy. Colossus and GLH are huge on an archipelago map with financial; and numerous other wonders may make sense, too. (Oracle -> MC, GL as always ...). It could be quite a strong strategy.

I was considering shadowing the game in another thread trying to run a trade economy and avoid cottaging, somewhat similar to the RPC Victoria game.

Any objections?

 

[Ultimocrat]

I was considering shadowing the game in another thread trying to run a trade economy and avoid cottaging, somewhat similar to the RPC Victoria game.

Any objections?

Spoiler :

Well, this start is apparently isolated (according to the other spoiler tags), so a trade route economy is going to be all the more difficult ... no lucrative foreign routes. But I would definitely follow such a thread if you played such a shadow game.

 

[solvero]

I think settling in place is better. I also think we should save the Maoi for a city with more water tiles, as this city has enough hammers already. anyway we do need to see what the scout will reveal, but I think that settling in place will be the better option.

 

[Pe Ell]

I dislike settling on resurses unless I have to, so I say settle in place.

 

[futurehermit]

GLH and Colossus are a must

Move the scout before deciding where to settle

There are indeed valid arguments for both settling in place and settling on the stone. My concern would be that if you settle on the stone you may be denying food to other possible cities and if you give those food to the other cities then you are denying tiles to your capital. Therefore, I would probably favour settling in place, especially if there are good tiles in the BFC we can't see yet.

re: maoi statues, i usually always build them in a 1-tile island city; however, in an archipelago map building them in the capital to have a high-powered production center early could be game-winning.

 

[oyzar]

I dislike settling on resurses unless I have to, so I say settle in place.

This is pretty silly given that stone plains hill is just 5 hammers compared to settling on it which is 3 hammers and 2 food...

 

[carl corey]

GLH and Colossus are a must

I've seen GLH built very very fast. I was in the "islands" part of a Medium & Small map and decided early I'll really want it but still got beat to it. Colossus is another story given a decent prioritizing of Metal Casting. But despite the obvious benefits we're not Industrious and at least for Colossus don't know if we have the resources to make it cheaper. Instead we have stone and ivory, and I still think that there are valuable Wonders we could build using those resources instead of racing and maybe losing others.

 

[madscientist]

This is pretty silly given that stone plains hill is just 5 hammers compared to settling on it which is 3 hammers and 2 food...

Just as silly as building the Maori statues for 6 extra mhammers once the city reaches maximum size.

But it is not just about settling on the Stone, you are loosing alot of other workable tiles for the extra 2 seafood.

 

[Aquarius_DJ]

Anyone thought about settling 1N 1NW? That way you would have a capital with 2 clams, 1 stone and 2 jumbos. Still a nice capital for wonderspamming.

That leaves the plains hill in the south left for a second city with also 2 clams (and maybe more (food)recourses inland). Seems like a city with a couple of forests too. Maybe you could build/chop the Great Library and Oxford university (stone wonder) over there and run a couple of scientists.

 

[oyzar]

The titles you lose can mostly be picked up by other cities.. With the clam it will be way better for running specialists and with the stone plains hill it will lead to a much faster start than otherwise possible... Really it is mostly the fact that you saves an insane amount of turns by the extra production not so much the extra clams which is a nice bonus of course. And given that he settle on the stone plains hill for the extra early speed moai statues might be a good idea(unless he have better locations of course)...

 

[Ultimocrat]

Anyone thought about settling 1N 1NW? That way you would have a capital with 2 clams, 1 stone and 2 jumbos. Still a nice capital for wonderspamming.

I thought about that for a minute, too. It's an interesting idea, though you'd lose all of the river bonuses. I suppose it makes a case for moving the scout NE-N or NE-NE, though. The main benefit is that it buys for sure a second strong city, with 2 clams and at least 2 plains hills.

 

[futurehermit]

I've seen GLH built very very fast. I was in the "islands" part of a Medium & Small map and decided early I'll really want it but still got beat to it. Colossus is another story given a decent prioritizing of Metal Casting. But despite the obvious benefits we're not Industrious and at least for Colossus don't know if we have the resources to make it cheaper. Instead we have stone and ivory, and I still think that there are valuable Wonders we could build using those resources instead of racing and maybe losing others.

I've also seen the GLH built very very slow. I'd say it's better to go for it and lose than to not go for it because if we get it, it will be a huge boon to us. It's really too bad it's not accelerated by stone, but regardless I think we have to take a shot at it. The impact it can have on an archipelago map is just too huge to pass up imo. I mean, yeah, we can sink our hammers into the SoZ but if we happen to be isolated or if we are unable to do a lot of warring early which often happens on archipelago maps then we are sinking hammers into something that won't help us til much later whereas the GLH has an immediate large impact.

 

[madscientist]

I've also seen the GLH built very very slow. I'd say it's better to go for it and lose than to not go for it because if we get it, it will be a huge boon to us. It's really too bad it's not accelerated by stone, but regardless I think we have to take a shot at it. The impact it can have on an archipelago map is just too huge to pass up imo. I mean, yeah, we can sink our hammers into the SoZ but if we happen to be isolated or if we are unable to do a lot of warring early which often happens on archipelago maps then we are sinking hammers into something that won't help us til much later whereas the GLH has an immediate large impact.

I gotta agree. Also Ragnar wants to build lighthouses right away to take adnavtage of his UB. H already has fishing, and will likely get Masonry earlier than later because of the available stone. Forrests are present for chopping, unless we need them to make early war.