ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[Daedal]

It was nice to see the logic behind trading a big ticket tech like philosophy to only one leader. I hardly ever do that since I'm afraid they'll trade-whore it.

My only gripe about HR is that if you switch into it, garrison up, and then get DoWed by somebody before you can get alternate sources of happiness you'll be worse off than when you started. It's no fun getting caught between a garrison you can't move because it'll cause your city to riot and a neighbor who has their own SoD coming your way.

 

[Chrispy]

With calendar now acquired, there is another happy coming from the incense, and with 2 incense a trade could bring in another resource for happiness.

I like the idea of S.Paya that Polobo brought up, but I'm not sure it's worth it if you can't get gold to speed its production. Maybe for incense? That said, getting it to eliminate the need for Monotheism or Theology if you do get Islam as well as early FR would be good. But I think Polytheism and Asthetics has to take a back seat to HBR and Construction right now.

Regarding the iron city, my first thought would be to avoid the overlap with Babylon. But Babylon could easily afford to give that city those clams if the new city doesn't have sheep, and you are trading 3 ocean, 2 coast, a sheep hill, and a mountain for 2 shared farms, a shared cottage, and the 4 tiles jerVL/kg points out. Plus there is the strategic advantage of having the iron available for improvement immediately. Upon review, settling on the hill is clearly better.

Finally, I'm sure you'll change from a monument in Minoan now that it has +5 culture, but what is the building priority there? I think a library makes the most sense with all the food and the incense bringing in more money.

 

[Polobo]

Problem #1: no one is willing to trade Polytheism to me yet.
Problem #2: it's Monotheism I need to run Organized Religion.

- that was a 2AM mistake

I'll admit my HR logic is faulty though on marathon the civic switch overhead is somewhat more costly so I do try and switch to it during another switch if I do not have an immediate need for it. Given marathon I've even more time than usually to benefit from it as well. I formally change my mind and again value HR

Researching polytheism and monotheism shouldn't take too long and I would guess that you have a good chance of recouping the turns spent researching them in saved military buildup time. Also, it is probably going to be a little while until you can trade for feudalism and construction. Going HBR will let you build stables and supplemental level 2 HA units while you wait on vassalage. You may want to consider building research for a little while as well, if you do not want to build too many HAs while waiting for feudalism.

 

[Polobo]

I thought more on the S. Paya but am more convinced that war will soon be upon us; if for no other reason than now is a good time to knock down Sal whose is nowhere near feudalism - neither is Ragnar who doesn't even have priesthood yet. We'll be in caste system so culture is taken care of and by the time we consolidate Saladin's territory and possibly Ragnar's, along with hopefully getting Judaism to spread to us (or capture it) detouring to Liberalism won't be as big of an issue.

Minoan will want a granary next, then maybe have it support Babylon in building up a navy? It appears we may have some time before DoW, would it be worth trying an amphibious landing to capture and hold the city on the west side of the choke point in Sal's NE? We'll end up splitting our forces but it will divert/delay Ragnar's stack if he joins in on Sal's side and will also divert some attention from our long shared border. I'm thinking probably not but it is a consideration. A lot would depend on when and how we get construction and feudalism compared to Saladin getting monarchy.

 

[carl corey]

I agree with CivCorpse about the tech path: trade if possible for Construction, if not go Construction -> HBR. The city in which you settle the GG will build accuracy cats and CI-CRII swords, and the rest, suicidal cats and, when HBR is done, stables and elephants. Even if Saladin gets Longbows (very likely) I still think it's a war we can easily win. Just be sure to build those courthouses before going to war, otherwise we're not going to be able to keep too many cities...

 

[CivCorpse]

Definately stop building a monument in minoan. Granary->Lighthouse->Library->courthouse. Have babylon build 2 workboats for Minoan. Once the buildings are whipped and you are in CS, then you can run 7 scientists. 26bpt and 21GPP will definately help. Minoan can actually be your GP farm until Lit and the NE goes in Babylon. Thus freeing up babylon for producucing units.

 

[Chrispy]

Minoan will want a granary next, then maybe have it support Babylon in building up a navy?

Can't believe I didn't think about a Granary first to help whipping out the other buildings. Whipping out a navy might make sense as well, although I think the civ needs the beakers from a library more.

In fact, I'd consider using Minoan as the GP farm long-term. You can still run some specialists and the plains mines in Babylon even after giving up the clams to the iron city to the SE, but 7 specialists in Minoan, or 6 and working the incense, makes more sense for a city with little other purpose.

 

[fjordan]

If you tend to let your cities grow too large why don't you use the avoid growth button? I use this alot when I am not in slavery. In slavery on the other hand, when I have a city with some food it would never be without whipping anger. There is always a 2 or 3 pop whip available.

Well as I am already posting might as well give my opinion on tech: currency. All the nice gold you could have gotten with those trades. It is not too late for that. The extra trade route will also make the new cities pay for themselves.

At last, change to HR and use your abundant happiness for a grow-to-4-whip-repeat frenzy to get the infrastructure on-line. Fit in some settlers in the food cities.

 

[Rubbaduck]

If you tend to let your cities grow too large why don't you use the avoid growth button?

Because you'll forget it on and then your cities don't grow when they should.

 

[Lord Chambers]

If you tend to let your cities grow too large why don't you use the avoid growth button?

Another rule of Civ4 is never to use the avoid growth button. It's useless.

Using the first scientist for bulbing Philosophy was an interesting decision. I rarely have the option to do so before 1 AD, and go with the Academy. The prospect of getting Pacifism early is so powerful though, it complicates whether to head for Code of Laws before Construction or Currency, which used to be simple for me.

I would switch into Pacifism and plan on rolling through Saladin with Trebuchets. Having Scientists to bulb techs will allow you to trade for 2/4 of the techs required for Trebuchets (Metal Casting, Machinery, Construction, Engineering). Since this Immortal I don't suspect you'll have a lot of down time waiting for someone to research Machinery, but if you find you do, run max gold to stock the coffers for a deficit run at Engineering. It'll be long to research, but getting Trebuchets well before they get Musketmen = win. Also with Engineering comes Pikemen which defeat the enemy stack. Engineering = win. In this specific game, Engineering would allow you to defeat the most powerful rival and take his land; = game winning.

Of course, provided you don't get distracted by things like Horseback Riding.

 

[kazapp]

Pikemen and Trebuchets are indeed nice.

But so are Elephants* and Catapults.

*) Even the land-based ones.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Pikemen and Trebuchets are indeed nice.

But so are Elephants* and Catapults.

I'm down. I don't like putting Catapults against Longbows, but if Sisutil finds himeself overwhelmed by Hammers and Saladin doesn't look like he's gonna field inexhuastible supplies of them, then go for it.

 

[jerVL/kg]

It was nice to see the logic behind trading a big ticket tech like philosophy to only one leader.

Remind me what the logic was again? I must have missed it.

Keep in mind, there is likely another civ beyond Justinian who we haven't met yet. If that civ gets Feudalism or Compass, and Saladin/Darius have already met that civ, it will break the monopoly and Justin might jump on a trade before we get the chance to. Relying on Justin to build Angkor Wat is very risky.

I'm not saying the Philo trade was a bad idea, it's just one I would have thought twice about.

 

[Komunyst_Indian]

"Sisiutl (as it's properly rendered into English spelling) is a Native American term ("red indian" is considered pejorative, by they way, so I'd recommend you refrain from using it). Specifically, for many of the native tribes on the west coast of British Columbia and especially Vancouver Island, Sisiutl is the name of one of the most powerful creatures in their legends, a two-headed sea serpent. You can read more about it HERE. The avatar I use on this board is a wall plaque representing Sisiutl.

I doubt I'll ever play a modded ALC; I have enough on my plate just trying to get through all the leaders--I'm barely half-way through. I have considered playing a special Canadian ALC with the Canada mod in the past, but only the Canadian players (like myself) would probably be interested "

Cheers !
i understand about you having, what 30 + AlCs left to complete ... considered mentoring people to spin off alcs into mods - i.e diff people are ALCs in diff mods etc.

just my .002C, no hard feelings - you have a very rigourous and taxing job!

 

[CivCorpse]

Another rule of Civ4 is never to use the avoid growth button. It's useless.

Using the first scientist for bulbing Philosophy was an interesting decision. I rarely have the option to do so before 1 AD, and go with the Academy. The prospect of getting Pacifism early is so powerful though, it complicates whether to head for Code of Laws before Construction or Currency, which used to be simple for me.

I would switch into Pacifism and plan on rolling through Saladin with Trebuchets. Having Scientists to bulb techs will allow you to trade for 2/4 of the techs required for Trebuchets (Metal Casting, Machinery, Construction, Engineering). Since this Immortal I don't suspect you'll have a lot of down time waiting for someone to research Machinery, but if you find you do, run max gold to stock the coffers for a deficit run at Engineering. It'll be long to research, but getting Trebuchets well before they get Musketmen = win. Also with Engineering comes Pikemen which defeat the enemy stack. Engineering = win. In this specific game, Engineering would allow you to defeat the most powerful rival and take his land; = game winning.

Of course, provided you don't get distracted by things like Horseback Riding.

The problem with pikes and trebs is camel archers. The built in extra retreat odds means they will survive more often thus butchering your trebs through siege flanking.

I would also avoid switching to pacifism until Sis has a larger standing army. He already has diplomatic demerits with Sal and Sal loves religious wars vs the heathens.

RE: never using "avoid growth" as it is useless. I scanned the thread you linked and you mention unhappy citizens cost nothing. Not so, city mainaitence is affected by population so each unhappy person costs extra gpt. Switching tiles worked to avoid growth in a cottaged commerce city would require switching them off of cottages thus reducing the effectiveness of the city. It is better to work the best tiles for that cities purpose and just click avoid growth.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Not to mention that there are some random events that can trigger in unhappy cities, IIRC.

 

[Lord Parkin]

RE: never using "avoid growth" as it is useless. I scanned the thread you linked and you mention unhappy citizens cost nothing. Not so, city mainaitence is affected by population so each unhappy person costs extra gpt. Switching tiles worked to avoid growth in a cottaged commerce city would require switching them off of cottages thus reducing the effectiveness of the city. It is better to work the best tiles for that cities purpose and just click avoid growth.

Plus, building workers and settlers is slowed considerably with every unhappy citizen, since they're each still eating that 2 food per turn which could be put into production.

I don't use Avoid Growth very often, but it certainly does occasionally have its uses. It's just a matter of marking the cities so you don't forget that you put them into Avoid Growth for several centuries (which has happened to me before, I'll admit ).

 

[Validator]

It *will* require one of Babylon's clams, however.

I don't think it needs to use to clams forever. The city tile and lake (with lighthouse) provide 3 excess to feed the citizens working 3 of the grassland hills. The fourth can either be windmilled or one of the grassland tiles can be farmed to feed a fourth grassland hill mine.

This city should use the clams while growing, but once it reaches its target size it doesn't need the clams anymore. Of course Sisiutil may decide that it would be better to let this city work the clams if it can use the extra better than Babylon.

Plus, building workers and settlers is slowed considerably with every unhappy citizen, since they're each still eating that 2 food per turn which could be put into production.

Unhappy citizens don't eat when producing settlers or workers (unless it's changed recently). This was pointed out a long time ago (vanilla 1.61) and alexman indicated it is by design. link

EDIT: I just did a little Worldbuilder test and it hasn't changed.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Unhappy citizens don't eat when producing settlers or workers (unless it's changed recently). This was pointed out a long time ago (vanilla 1.61) and alexman indicated it is by design. link

Hmm, I never knew that... I'd always assumed that that part of the game mechanics worked like most of the rest of the game mechanics - that is, logically. Thanks for informing me it isn't so.

Still, growing a city into unhappiness can sometimes cause it to starve (through unhealthiness), and thus lose the food it had in the Granary. Thus I still think Avoid Growth is a valid option.

 

[Validator]

I'd always assumed that that part of the game mechanics worked like most of the rest of the game mechanics - that is, logically.

That'll get you in trouble every time.