jason77024
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2007
- Messages
- 208
No worries, just a little linguistics joke there for CivCorpse, vanatteveldt, and the rest.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled ALC.
ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
No worries, just a little linguistics joke there for CivCorpse, vanatteveldt, and the rest.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled ALC.
carl corey
Deity
Soooo, peaceful round it is? 
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Soooo, peaceful round it is?
Most likely. Sorry for the delay. I'll play it and post it this weekend.
carl corey
Deity
No problem. It was just a joke based on what people previously said about "war = quick updates". 
Komunyst_Indian
Chieftain
hehe.. funny how people pick up these things
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Peaceful round? Whoever that is, give Sisiutil his account back.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 6: 155 BC to 160 AD (21 turns)
Slow and steady wins the race, right?
I began the round by implementing a number of the suggestions many of you had offered. For starters, I switched builds in Babylon to Work Boats for the recently-captured barb city of Minoan:
I kept working the food-heavy tiles, however, because I really wanted the city to grow to its happiness cap.
And that happiness cap was about to increase, because I changed to one of the new civics I now had available:
The additional happiness from Monarchy is, to me, invaluable. Why did I make those tech trades that I did if I wasn't going to take advantage of it? But as for Caste System, as many of you said, I still have uses for slavery, and you'll see some of that right away in the screenshots just below. Pacifism also didn't make much sense yet, as I didn't want to adopt Christianity as my state religion and become an international pariah.
Shortly into the round, Saladin got himself a Great Prophet and did the predictable thing:
Well, that much makes Mecca all the more attractive a target, doesn't it? It may also help Islam to spread to one of the new cities I want to found.
As suggested, I began whipping courthouses in my cities. I put each courthouse into the queue before the current build, left it there for one turn to put in a few hammers to avoid the empty queue whipping penalty, then whipped.
Akkad and Gondar also got their courthouses this way, on the very same turn. I waited a few turns for the courthouse in Lalbela--I finished the granary first in order to ensure the city could grow back more easily after whipping. That helped my economy--I was able to push the slider up 10% as a result. In fact, if you watch closely, you'll see the slider slowly working its way back up all round.
I kept exploring with one Chariot roaming around the northeast, who managed to find both Ragnar and Justinian. One he reached land's end in the far east, he met a couple more civs who are separated from our continent by a narrow strait.
Mehmed, as you can see, had several techs on me and was unwilling to trade them. He proved useful in another regard, however. Since he is far away and separated by water, I decided to trade my extra horses to him for cows and his GPT. I was later able to increase this trade to include another resource.
And shortly after meeting Mehmed, I met another leader who I think shares his land mass with him, though at this point I'm not completely sure.
As you can see, Hannibal was much more willing to trade techs, including two invaluable ones that are on our mutual wish list. However, I only had Meditation to offer. Well, Meditation and, of course, Philosophy, but Hannibal needed the precedent tech first, so I traded it to him, as you see above, for a pittance.
On the next turn, I made a couple more deals. First with Saladin...
A bargain for him, I know, but I had continued researching Aesthetics and had my heart set upon the Great Library.
Then I went to see Hannibal.
Another very favourable trade for the AI, but I got two immensely useful techs out of it, one of which gave my economy an immediate boost--thanks to both the new trade routes and the ability to trade more resources for GPT. The downside, as many of you noted, is that I've traded away a tech on the Liberalism path to two AIs now, the latest to a Financial leader no less. In response all I can say is to keep in mind that this is only my second on-line game on Immortal level (my third if you count the only off-line Immortal game I haven't abandoned because I was getting my butt kicked). I often find myself having to bend rules I followed on previous levels in order to stay in contention, as well as acknowledging that I'm not going to win certain in-game races. So I may not be first to Liberalism. Well, that's too bad, but it is not necessarily game-breaking. And I'm not giving up on it either.
I also got a bit of good news: now that I had the population and happiness level necessary to work the capital's hammer-heavy tiles, I discovered a very welcome resource in one of those hills.
Nice--commerce and happiness, and now I don't have to trade to Justinian for some of the gems he has.
With the economy on the way to recovery, I felt I could begin expanding again. I founded the fur/silver city in the suggested location, on the coast--albeit ice-bound--so I can build a lighthouse there and make the two lake tiles into very serviceable 3F 2C tiles.
Toward the end of the round, I completed the tech I'd been researching all round.
I did not trade it around--there didn't seem to be anything worthwhile out there to get for it.
With my slider back up around 60%, it didn't take long to research my next tech.
I began building the Great Library in the capital. It's not going to take long.
I could speed it further by assigning the scientists to those two plains forest tiles, but I'm not sure if it's necessary--especially if I also chop a forest 3 tiles north of the capital for a few extra hammers.
I chose Metal Casting as the next tech to research, but as usual, since I now have most of the techs we discussed acquiring at the end of the previous round, I decided to end the round here so we can discuss whether that's the best choice.
Here's a look at the map:
Mehmed's territory is just east of Adrianople. I have a Galley NW of Baghdad now, just next to that tile of land--just visible now--which I think will lead to Persian territory. A barb city has appeared south of Lalibela, by the way, so obviously I didn't have my fog-busting Chariot far enough south. But that may give my new Catapults and veteran Axemen something to do.
Domestic Advisor:
I've built a couple of Catapults and have gathered most of my units in Aksum. They can march east and go after that barb city, but I'd prefer to at east wait until I have a Settler ready to found the gold-pig-fish city we talked about. However, Saladin has expanded into the area east of former Ethiopian territory, founding two cities. Their borders, once expanded, would cut off access to that eastern gold-pig-fish city if something like, say, a war happened. So I'm hesitating, thinking it might be best to focus on other city sites--such as the suggested ones along my southwest coast--and let Saladin settle that territory, then wrest it from his hands later. Thoughts?
Foreign Advisor, Relations:
This is very different from the Lincoln game, isn't it? It shows how much of a difference a shared religion can make. Frankly, even if I could convert to Islam, I'd only befriend Saladin and Ragnar. Justinian, Mehmed, and Hannibal are Jewish and Darius is Hindu, so I won't win any more points with them than if I adopt Christianity. Someone suggested building the Shwedagon Paya so I can adopt Free Religion. I now have Aesthetics, so that may be worthwhile, more so if I have gold--which may justify that eastern city, Arabian borders notwithstanding. Hmmm...
Current trade deals:
Right after I renegotiated with Mehmed to get rice for the horses as well as cows and GPT, he had sugar available. So I'm hoping that in 8 turns when I can renegotiate I'll get that resource as well. I'll swap out cows if I have to; happiness is more valuable and hard to come by than health right now. I will also have two extra fur and one extra incense available for trading in a few turns. Which is good, because some of the leaders have a little GPT available, and that's always helpful.
Techs:
I always like being in a situation where even though I'm not the tech leader, I have a few techs-in-hand on the AI. Notice that apparently Mehmed, Darius, Hannibal, and Justinian all have Aesthetics; any of them may be building the Shwedagon Paya already.
I'm not anxious to make any of the available trade deals. I don't want to trade away Literature just yet since I'm just starting on the GL. I should be able to get Monotheism for it later on, or at least some gold. I'd need to be offered a heckuva deal for Horseback Riding, since I've researched part of it already. Trading Philosophy to Mehmed for Mono and HBR would be an extremely uneven deal. I also now am become more wary about excessive tech trades now that I have met more civs. There are only two others I haven't met, and the WFYABTA limit becomes more of a possibility with every trade. I think I should finish HBR on my own, ditto for metal casting. I think Feudalism would be a worthwhile tech to obtain from the AI, so maybe if Justinian or Darius loosen up I could get it from one of them.
Religion:
As you saw above, Monotheism is available, but to leverage it I would have to adopt a religion no one else has. Frankly, that makes it a low priority. At this point, the best diplomatic possibility would be for Judaism to spread to me, but that seems unlikely.
The power graph:
I'm slipping a bit, but getting Construction and building a couple of Catapults has helped. Maybe I should finish off HBR before pursuing any other techs so I can further boost my power rating with War Elephants and a few Horse Archers.
So another short round where the economy recovered considerably--enough to support more expansion and/or another war? You tell me. I wouldn't mind building up for a war with Saladin. I'm thinking that conflict with someone is inevitable, so after focusing on civilian builds, I should focus on military for a while for defensive purposes at the very least. I am leaning toward founding a city to claim that iron tile, then, rather than going after the gold city that would be isolated an potentially overrun by Arabian forces.
If I get beaten to the Swedagon Paya, which I think is very likely, should I stick with no state religion, or should I just adopt Christianity for now (especially once I have Monotheism and can benefit from Organized Religion) and take my diplomatic lumps? If we anticipate conflict with Saladin anyway, there's little point in hoping for Islam to spread to me. What might be best is to adopt Christianity once I have Monotheism, then switch to Judaism as soon as I either capture a Jewish city or have it spread to me somehow.
At any rate, the saved game is below, and I look forward to your comments, as always.
Slow and steady wins the race, right?
I began the round by implementing a number of the suggestions many of you had offered. For starters, I switched builds in Babylon to Work Boats for the recently-captured barb city of Minoan:
I kept working the food-heavy tiles, however, because I really wanted the city to grow to its happiness cap.
And that happiness cap was about to increase, because I changed to one of the new civics I now had available:
The additional happiness from Monarchy is, to me, invaluable. Why did I make those tech trades that I did if I wasn't going to take advantage of it? But as for Caste System, as many of you said, I still have uses for slavery, and you'll see some of that right away in the screenshots just below. Pacifism also didn't make much sense yet, as I didn't want to adopt Christianity as my state religion and become an international pariah.
Shortly into the round, Saladin got himself a Great Prophet and did the predictable thing:
Well, that much makes Mecca all the more attractive a target, doesn't it? It may also help Islam to spread to one of the new cities I want to found.
As suggested, I began whipping courthouses in my cities. I put each courthouse into the queue before the current build, left it there for one turn to put in a few hammers to avoid the empty queue whipping penalty, then whipped.
Akkad and Gondar also got their courthouses this way, on the very same turn. I waited a few turns for the courthouse in Lalbela--I finished the granary first in order to ensure the city could grow back more easily after whipping. That helped my economy--I was able to push the slider up 10% as a result. In fact, if you watch closely, you'll see the slider slowly working its way back up all round.
I kept exploring with one Chariot roaming around the northeast, who managed to find both Ragnar and Justinian. One he reached land's end in the far east, he met a couple more civs who are separated from our continent by a narrow strait.
Mehmed, as you can see, had several techs on me and was unwilling to trade them. He proved useful in another regard, however. Since he is far away and separated by water, I decided to trade my extra horses to him for cows and his GPT. I was later able to increase this trade to include another resource.
And shortly after meeting Mehmed, I met another leader who I think shares his land mass with him, though at this point I'm not completely sure.
As you can see, Hannibal was much more willing to trade techs, including two invaluable ones that are on our mutual wish list. However, I only had Meditation to offer. Well, Meditation and, of course, Philosophy, but Hannibal needed the precedent tech first, so I traded it to him, as you see above, for a pittance.
On the next turn, I made a couple more deals. First with Saladin...
A bargain for him, I know, but I had continued researching Aesthetics and had my heart set upon the Great Library.
Then I went to see Hannibal.
Another very favourable trade for the AI, but I got two immensely useful techs out of it, one of which gave my economy an immediate boost--thanks to both the new trade routes and the ability to trade more resources for GPT. The downside, as many of you noted, is that I've traded away a tech on the Liberalism path to two AIs now, the latest to a Financial leader no less. In response all I can say is to keep in mind that this is only my second on-line game on Immortal level (my third if you count the only off-line Immortal game I haven't abandoned because I was getting my butt kicked). I often find myself having to bend rules I followed on previous levels in order to stay in contention, as well as acknowledging that I'm not going to win certain in-game races. So I may not be first to Liberalism. Well, that's too bad, but it is not necessarily game-breaking. And I'm not giving up on it either.
I also got a bit of good news: now that I had the population and happiness level necessary to work the capital's hammer-heavy tiles, I discovered a very welcome resource in one of those hills.
Nice--commerce and happiness, and now I don't have to trade to Justinian for some of the gems he has.
With the economy on the way to recovery, I felt I could begin expanding again. I founded the fur/silver city in the suggested location, on the coast--albeit ice-bound--so I can build a lighthouse there and make the two lake tiles into very serviceable 3F 2C tiles.
Toward the end of the round, I completed the tech I'd been researching all round.
I did not trade it around--there didn't seem to be anything worthwhile out there to get for it.
With my slider back up around 60%, it didn't take long to research my next tech.
I began building the Great Library in the capital. It's not going to take long.
I could speed it further by assigning the scientists to those two plains forest tiles, but I'm not sure if it's necessary--especially if I also chop a forest 3 tiles north of the capital for a few extra hammers.
I chose Metal Casting as the next tech to research, but as usual, since I now have most of the techs we discussed acquiring at the end of the previous round, I decided to end the round here so we can discuss whether that's the best choice.
Here's a look at the map:
Mehmed's territory is just east of Adrianople. I have a Galley NW of Baghdad now, just next to that tile of land--just visible now--which I think will lead to Persian territory. A barb city has appeared south of Lalibela, by the way, so obviously I didn't have my fog-busting Chariot far enough south. But that may give my new Catapults and veteran Axemen something to do.
Domestic Advisor:
I've built a couple of Catapults and have gathered most of my units in Aksum. They can march east and go after that barb city, but I'd prefer to at east wait until I have a Settler ready to found the gold-pig-fish city we talked about. However, Saladin has expanded into the area east of former Ethiopian territory, founding two cities. Their borders, once expanded, would cut off access to that eastern gold-pig-fish city if something like, say, a war happened. So I'm hesitating, thinking it might be best to focus on other city sites--such as the suggested ones along my southwest coast--and let Saladin settle that territory, then wrest it from his hands later. Thoughts?
Foreign Advisor, Relations:
This is very different from the Lincoln game, isn't it? It shows how much of a difference a shared religion can make. Frankly, even if I could convert to Islam, I'd only befriend Saladin and Ragnar. Justinian, Mehmed, and Hannibal are Jewish and Darius is Hindu, so I won't win any more points with them than if I adopt Christianity. Someone suggested building the Shwedagon Paya so I can adopt Free Religion. I now have Aesthetics, so that may be worthwhile, more so if I have gold--which may justify that eastern city, Arabian borders notwithstanding. Hmmm...
Current trade deals:
Right after I renegotiated with Mehmed to get rice for the horses as well as cows and GPT, he had sugar available. So I'm hoping that in 8 turns when I can renegotiate I'll get that resource as well. I'll swap out cows if I have to; happiness is more valuable and hard to come by than health right now. I will also have two extra fur and one extra incense available for trading in a few turns. Which is good, because some of the leaders have a little GPT available, and that's always helpful.
Techs:
I always like being in a situation where even though I'm not the tech leader, I have a few techs-in-hand on the AI. Notice that apparently Mehmed, Darius, Hannibal, and Justinian all have Aesthetics; any of them may be building the Shwedagon Paya already.
I'm not anxious to make any of the available trade deals. I don't want to trade away Literature just yet since I'm just starting on the GL. I should be able to get Monotheism for it later on, or at least some gold. I'd need to be offered a heckuva deal for Horseback Riding, since I've researched part of it already. Trading Philosophy to Mehmed for Mono and HBR would be an extremely uneven deal. I also now am become more wary about excessive tech trades now that I have met more civs. There are only two others I haven't met, and the WFYABTA limit becomes more of a possibility with every trade. I think I should finish HBR on my own, ditto for metal casting. I think Feudalism would be a worthwhile tech to obtain from the AI, so maybe if Justinian or Darius loosen up I could get it from one of them.
Religion:
As you saw above, Monotheism is available, but to leverage it I would have to adopt a religion no one else has. Frankly, that makes it a low priority. At this point, the best diplomatic possibility would be for Judaism to spread to me, but that seems unlikely.
The power graph:
I'm slipping a bit, but getting Construction and building a couple of Catapults has helped. Maybe I should finish off HBR before pursuing any other techs so I can further boost my power rating with War Elephants and a few Horse Archers.
So another short round where the economy recovered considerably--enough to support more expansion and/or another war? You tell me. I wouldn't mind building up for a war with Saladin. I'm thinking that conflict with someone is inevitable, so after focusing on civilian builds, I should focus on military for a while for defensive purposes at the very least. I am leaning toward founding a city to claim that iron tile, then, rather than going after the gold city that would be isolated an potentially overrun by Arabian forces.
If I get beaten to the Swedagon Paya, which I think is very likely, should I stick with no state religion, or should I just adopt Christianity for now (especially once I have Monotheism and can benefit from Organized Religion) and take my diplomatic lumps? If we anticipate conflict with Saladin anyway, there's little point in hoping for Islam to spread to me. What might be best is to adopt Christianity once I have Monotheism, then switch to Judaism as soon as I either capture a Jewish city or have it spread to me somehow.
At any rate, the saved game is below, and I look forward to your comments, as always.
Lord Chambers
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,004
If you switch to Islam that makes Saladin your buddy. Where do you invade then? Justinian? I'd go Jewish if anything, diplomatically speaking. For the benefits of religious civics you need Christianity, which means no friends once too advanced hits. I'd wager if you have Saladins land by the time that occurs you won't really need to do much tech trading because you'll be able to conquer the continent. With availible technology.
I'd go Organized Religion if invading Saladin soon or Pacificm if invading with Liberalism troops. Theology isn't as bad a choice as normal here because it'll give you a +5 civic bonus from Justinian which could keep him off your back during the invasion.
Here's what I would do:
Whip the granary in Minoan now and then whip a barracks soon. Settle the great general there. Continue whipping it every other turn to build level 2 catapults which will do great things to Saladin's archers. Granted he'll have Longbows after you capture the first city, he may not be able to upgrade every single one of his archers, and city raider 2 catapults will fare acceptably. Build additional Axemen and Spearmen from Akkad, and settle your next general there. In the meanwhile use Babylon to build the Great Library and afterward units if you need them. Keep it running two scientists and don't switch into caste system. You'll be able to self-research Civil Service (trade it) and Paper, then generate three scientists relatively quickly for Education and Liberalism (if don't obtain Machinery). I would probably use one of these scientists for a golden age, because that will help the war while making the next scientist come twice as fast--most likely the last one since it'll set up a run for the Taj Mahal but it depends on how the war goes. During the war you may be able to switch into Caste System to speed up the Great Scientists and start building workshops for Akkad after Minoan is whipped to death. I wouldn't shy away from running a Priest in Babylon too to speed things up. You may not need to, to win Liberalism. Redirect your espionage and you'll be able to see what Darius and Hannibal are researching within about 20 turns.
Also, if you go this route, don't go Vassalage. You'll have Civil Service in 19 turns, and being in that when you get Nationalism means you'll secure the Taj Mahal. That extra golden age isn't a really important goal, but if you're in a Golden age when you finish Liberalism, and you have a hammmer-heavy capital that's switching 3 scientists and a priest to working workshops, it's yours, and it'll propell your post-Liberalism-Nationalism research into Gunpowder and Military Tradition. Peace Ragnar and Justinian. I would only go Vassalage if you're not planning on researching Civil Service or winning this game.
You're in great position. I'd start the war with Saladin very soon. You can take Kufah and Damascus with just the troops you have, and then bring in catapults from Minoan to take Mecca. If you wait until Saladin has Long Bows you're going to have to wait for a lot of catapults to start your campaign. Happiness wont' be an issue because you're about to get Silver and Gold (if you take Kufah), plus you can trade for Sugar whenever you want.
Try to stop building random roads like the ones north of Babylon. Lalibela needs more cottages.
I'd go Organized Religion if invading Saladin soon or Pacificm if invading with Liberalism troops. Theology isn't as bad a choice as normal here because it'll give you a +5 civic bonus from Justinian which could keep him off your back during the invasion.
Here's what I would do:
Whip the granary in Minoan now and then whip a barracks soon. Settle the great general there. Continue whipping it every other turn to build level 2 catapults which will do great things to Saladin's archers. Granted he'll have Longbows after you capture the first city, he may not be able to upgrade every single one of his archers, and city raider 2 catapults will fare acceptably. Build additional Axemen and Spearmen from Akkad, and settle your next general there. In the meanwhile use Babylon to build the Great Library and afterward units if you need them. Keep it running two scientists and don't switch into caste system. You'll be able to self-research Civil Service (trade it) and Paper, then generate three scientists relatively quickly for Education and Liberalism (if don't obtain Machinery). I would probably use one of these scientists for a golden age, because that will help the war while making the next scientist come twice as fast--most likely the last one since it'll set up a run for the Taj Mahal but it depends on how the war goes. During the war you may be able to switch into Caste System to speed up the Great Scientists and start building workshops for Akkad after Minoan is whipped to death. I wouldn't shy away from running a Priest in Babylon too to speed things up. You may not need to, to win Liberalism. Redirect your espionage and you'll be able to see what Darius and Hannibal are researching within about 20 turns.
Also, if you go this route, don't go Vassalage. You'll have Civil Service in 19 turns, and being in that when you get Nationalism means you'll secure the Taj Mahal. That extra golden age isn't a really important goal, but if you're in a Golden age when you finish Liberalism, and you have a hammmer-heavy capital that's switching 3 scientists and a priest to working workshops, it's yours, and it'll propell your post-Liberalism-Nationalism research into Gunpowder and Military Tradition. Peace Ragnar and Justinian. I would only go Vassalage if you're not planning on researching Civil Service or winning this game.
You're in great position. I'd start the war with Saladin very soon. You can take Kufah and Damascus with just the troops you have, and then bring in catapults from Minoan to take Mecca. If you wait until Saladin has Long Bows you're going to have to wait for a lot of catapults to start your campaign. Happiness wont' be an issue because you're about to get Silver and Gold (if you take Kufah), plus you can trade for Sugar whenever you want.
Try to stop building random roads like the ones north of Babylon. Lalibela needs more cottages.
You mention waiting for the granary to finish before whipping the courthouse but the granary starts empty so you only get whatever surplus food you accumulate between finishing the granary and whipping the courthouse - but you lose out on having a courthouse for however many turns it took to finish the granary.
Also, you are valuing happy more than health at this point but you've switched into HR so you can make your happy cap and health caps "equal". Why would you then trade away a solo health resource for a happy resource. Health cap isn't as severe (wasted food) as the happy cap but if you don't really need to go above either then why would you? Also, with forges you'll lose 1 healthy and get 2 (3 if you can claim the gold city) happy. You'll be able to whip forges in most of your cities (I think it requires population 8 on Epic) immediately. The you can whip start whipping out your military. Saladin still does not have Feudalism and I'd bet he's actually going for machinery (he has compass and metal casting) as a pre-req for optics. He also recently researched Aesthetics I believe (or traded for it). Giving him Monarchy was probably not the best idea in hindsight - if you are going to war with him. That said, we need feudalism ourselves, both for longbows and vassalage. I would recommend we get this first (before metal casting) and revolt. Grow our cities some more so once we whip in the forges we'll be able to immediately whip out city takers (we'll be building longbows and catapults before we get metal casting).
If you can hookup the gold in the next 15 turns have Babylon start on the S. Paya. Worst case it can fund deficit research; best case we can delay Liberalism if we aren't going to win the race. The gold is a great resource and is worth whipping a city down to get it. Happy, Forge, and Commerce plus S. Paya booster.
Picking up monotheism/OR before finishing metal casting will make the forge whip more effective and leave more population/hammers for whipped units.
Once the continent is yours a switch to Philosophy will let your specialist driven (it will be once the war starts and you capture cities) crank out some great people while you transition back to a cottage/hybrid economy for the industrial era.
Also, you are valuing happy more than health at this point but you've switched into HR so you can make your happy cap and health caps "equal". Why would you then trade away a solo health resource for a happy resource. Health cap isn't as severe (wasted food) as the happy cap but if you don't really need to go above either then why would you? Also, with forges you'll lose 1 healthy and get 2 (3 if you can claim the gold city) happy. You'll be able to whip forges in most of your cities (I think it requires population 8 on Epic) immediately. The you can whip start whipping out your military. Saladin still does not have Feudalism and I'd bet he's actually going for machinery (he has compass and metal casting) as a pre-req for optics. He also recently researched Aesthetics I believe (or traded for it). Giving him Monarchy was probably not the best idea in hindsight - if you are going to war with him. That said, we need feudalism ourselves, both for longbows and vassalage. I would recommend we get this first (before metal casting) and revolt. Grow our cities some more so once we whip in the forges we'll be able to immediately whip out city takers (we'll be building longbows and catapults before we get metal casting).
If you can hookup the gold in the next 15 turns have Babylon start on the S. Paya. Worst case it can fund deficit research; best case we can delay Liberalism if we aren't going to win the race. The gold is a great resource and is worth whipping a city down to get it. Happy, Forge, and Commerce plus S. Paya booster.
Picking up monotheism/OR before finishing metal casting will make the forge whip more effective and leave more population/hammers for whipped units.
Once the continent is yours a switch to Philosophy will let your specialist driven (it will be once the war starts and you capture cities) crank out some great people while you transition back to a cottage/hybrid economy for the industrial era.
Now that your economy's recovered, it's time to start planning for war against Saladin. You still have a Great General -- choose a military city and settle him there (Aksum would be my choice), build the Heroic Epic (cheap w/marble!) and start quietly amassing an army. I would also start spamming Xtian missionaries and try to convert Ragnar & Justinian -- especially Justin, because once he gets Theocracy you won't be able to convert him. That will at least give you some friends in the upcoming battle. 
Does Saladin have extra gold for trade yet? If so, absolutely build the Schwegadon Paya. I'd even recommend building it *without* gold, since you have plenty of forests left to chop around Aksum or Gondor. You need the great prophet points!!
What to research...hmm...well, Metal Casting is a good choice, since you could definitely use the forges. (Especially with silver AND gems...nice mine pop there!!) My only reservation is that several civs already have it, so it might be better to trade for. Another option would be to research Monotheism (should only take a few turns) and try to trade Philo for Theology -- not sure what that would gain you, however, unless you're ready to bite the bullet and become a Christian heathen.
Another option is Music -- you're well ahead on that part of the tech tree, and using the free GA for a Golden Age will give you a boost, plus the ability to build cathedrals for more priest specialists. Nobody has Civil Service yet, and Akkad especially could use the irrigation, so that's another option. You still have beakers towards HBR but it's probably best to trade for it at this point (but you *will* need it for war elephants.)
Don't worry about the Liberalism race, it's an unnecessary distraction.
The far-flung gold/pig/fish city is probably a lost cause by now; it wouldn't surprise me if the AI has settled there already. Definitely get the two cities on your west coast built (as we discussed prior to this round, kinda shocked you haven't built them already) and maybe the deer/fish SE of Libella, if you can afford it. Use the southern barb city for unit training.
And whip that granary in Minoan already!!!
ETA: Note that Darius has NOT met Justinian or Hannibal yet...which means that your WFYABTA limit with Darius has not been affected by trades with the other two civs.
Does Saladin have extra gold for trade yet? If so, absolutely build the Schwegadon Paya. I'd even recommend building it *without* gold, since you have plenty of forests left to chop around Aksum or Gondor. You need the great prophet points!!
What to research...hmm...well, Metal Casting is a good choice, since you could definitely use the forges. (Especially with silver AND gems...nice mine pop there!!) My only reservation is that several civs already have it, so it might be better to trade for. Another option would be to research Monotheism (should only take a few turns) and try to trade Philo for Theology -- not sure what that would gain you, however, unless you're ready to bite the bullet and become a Christian heathen.
Another option is Music -- you're well ahead on that part of the tech tree, and using the free GA for a Golden Age will give you a boost, plus the ability to build cathedrals for more priest specialists. Nobody has Civil Service yet, and Akkad especially could use the irrigation, so that's another option. You still have beakers towards HBR but it's probably best to trade for it at this point (but you *will* need it for war elephants.)
Don't worry about the Liberalism race, it's an unnecessary distraction.
The far-flung gold/pig/fish city is probably a lost cause by now; it wouldn't surprise me if the AI has settled there already. Definitely get the two cities on your west coast built (as we discussed prior to this round, kinda shocked you haven't built them already) and maybe the deer/fish SE of Libella, if you can afford it. Use the southern barb city for unit training.
And whip that granary in Minoan already!!!
ETA: Note that Darius has NOT met Justinian or Hannibal yet...which means that your WFYABTA limit with Darius has not been affected by trades with the other two civs.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Well, my focus was on recovering the economy rather than expansion. I preferred to check in to get opinions on expansion before doing so. Hence, once again, a relatively short round.
Well, I'm a REX'er, so I'm naturally inclined to think several turns ahead when it comes to city placement. However...and I say this with all due respect...I've noticed in your games a strange reluctance to found new cities, even ones close to your capital. For example, in the recent Lincoln game, you didn't claim the land south and west of Washington, which allowed Monty to encroach on your terrority and ultimately forced you to settle on a forested deer tile to claim the whales. Another city, on a plains hill to claim the northern fish, never got built.
I understand that expansion can be a problem, especially when you're losing money at 10% research (heh) and this is Immortal, which is far beyond what I've ever played. But the sooner you found cities, the sooner they can earn commerce and build units, so sometimes it's necessary to bite the bullet. I do think that REX'ing is probably your biggest weakness, if for no other reason than the fact that you obviously excel at everything else.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Nice work on recovering the economy. I'd leave Christianity for the present, unless you really need the happiness (which you probably don't, with Hereditary Rule). You won't really use Organised Religion much if you're preparing for a war soon, so it's not a big deal at the present.
I'd definitely start thinking about warring with Saladin before too long. He's the logical next target.
I'd definitely start thinking about warring with Saladin before too long. He's the logical next target.
Matthew5117
Emperor
Addressing Babylon, how in the world did you get 54 hammers before 160 AD? I've noticed that when you work food tiles, you get the production completion time reduced, how many hammers do they give?
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
HBR to Feudalism and then don't worry about research until you're done with Saladin. But I'd set it to Drama for the war slider.
Looks like Aksum is the best place for HE, farming over the cottages (not the village and hamlet).
Sheep/Iron is a very good spot for another military city.
I would grab Kufah in a sneak attack before it has walls. You could do that in four turns. You want to open the path to Mecca.
Looks like Aksum is the best place for HE, farming over the cottages (not the village and hamlet).
Sheep/Iron is a very good spot for another military city.
I would grab Kufah in a sneak attack before it has walls. You could do that in four turns. You want to open the path to Mecca.
Edit: 50% refers to the cost of the wonder; thus 100% production bonus.
Since Babylon is build the Great Library and Sis has marble hooked up there is a 100% production bonus. If you count the worked hammers there are 18. Another 18 from bonus means that there were 9 hammers carried over from the previous build (which also get the 100% bonus).
9 carry-over + 9 carry-over-bonus + 18 base + 18 bonus = 54
I cannot load the game right now but this should be the case based upon the game screen.
I am confused somewhat since the domestic adviser further below only shows 18 hammers while working on the great library. I play with BUG mod so does the normal BtS screen not consider multipliers and carryover when showing hammer production for the various cities? I would assume yes, otherwise why is it only showing 18?
Working food tiles generally increases production time (decreased hammer output) since most food tiles do not provide hammers; though they may indirectly be increasing production by being able to work more food negative production tiles (e.g., mines) at the expense of commerce tiles (cottages).
Edit (Oops): Given the desire to run Vassalage the need to settle the first GG is diminished. If we are going to war then give the man a first-aid kit and send him to the front lines.
How likely is it that a civ who can research music first will choose to not do so? If it is unlikely then odds are Darius will beat us to it. We are going to be in Caste System once the war starts so the option to build culture is unnecessary and the cathedrals will be expensive this early and detract from war builds (plus we do not need the culture or happy boost)
Forgot about the Elephants. At this point I'd pick it up after metal casting. Hopefully some others (besides Sal) research it and our discount to self-research will increase. After the initial whip-out for the forges you'll be able to grow back a little and then whip those elephants into submission.
Agreed, though the necessity of Liberalism itself depends on whether we get the S'Paya and where we stand in controlling our continent as the Renissance starts. We won't want/need Free Religion until after we own our continent. OR is going to be desired in order to setup infrastructure in our new territory and we won't be able to rely on the whip since we'll be in Caste System.
azzaman333
meh
Saladin must die. Hero Epic in Aksum, and attack shortly after completing the Great Library seems to me like the most effective way to succeed, as I wouldn't want one of my key cities occupied in wonder production while warring a Protective civ. Preferably before he gets Feudalism and super-charged Longbows.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Marble gives a +100% production bonus, not +50%.
Lord Chambers
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,004
Who needs a fish when your city is a piece of desert crap? The Deer and Whales city is a good example of how Sisutil founds cities that don't need to be settled. It's a crap city. It can be made marginally profitable, and getting resources earlier is helpful, but a better strategy for winning is just to take your opponents.Well, I'm a REX'er, so I'm naturally inclined to think several turns ahead when it comes to city placement. However...and I say this with all due respect...I've noticed in your games a strange reluctance to found new cities, even ones close to your capital. For example, in the recent Lincoln game, you didn't claim the land south and west of Washington, which allowed Monty to encroach on your terrority and ultimately forced you to settle on a forested deer tile to claim the whales. Another city, on a plains hill to claim the northern fish, never got built.
In the current game there are two sites on the West and two to the East that could be settled, but who cares if we have sufficient force from our cities to invade Saladin? I'm not against founding the city which would get the sheep and another which would get the gold, but until I had a city like Lalibela that looked ready to divert to build a settler, neither would get built. Settling is a low priority when you can be taking. Military cities building units for the next war, commerce cities getting commerce multipiers which keep your tech rate high. Marginal cities which will get you to the next military tech several turns faster? Uncommon.
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