Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Which city are you talking about? I have deer, but whales?
Oh--you're debating a previous ALC?!?
Okay, if you want to, but I'd find it more helpful if you guys would focus on the game at hand...
ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Oh--you're debating a previous ALC?!?
Okay, if you want to, but I'd find it more helpful if you guys would focus on the game at hand...In looking at the save I noticed one rather important item that wasn't mentioned in the update. A couple of turns ago Saladin captured the east coast barb city by the pigs. And he kept it. 
So the pigs/fish/gold city is out for now, until war with Saladin at least.
Given the locations of the AI civs Saladin is the only possible target, so he will have to be the next victim. The big question now is whether to go to war with him ASAP or continue peaceful endeavors for another round (or more
). The success of a near term DoW would likely depend on Saladin not having LBs (and not geting them soon after the DoW). Waiting would probably mean prioritizing medieval military techs and then attacking with a mace/treb led army.
I'm not sure how possible it will be to build up an invasion force quickly while one of the two strong
cities is tied up building a wonder. The other cities would have to rely on a lot of whipping to be able to contribute, and whipping away cottage working citizens isn't likely to be a good move long term. Also the options for military units is somewhat limited at the moment since no source of iron is available. I suppose finishing HBR next would allow war elephants, which could probably be used with cats for a successful invasion. But Arabian LBs would make it a bloody endeavor.
Waiting for war will allow Aksum to build HE next so that it will be much more productive when building the invasion force. All cities would also have a chance to grow which they really need to do now that the
cap has been lifted.
I think we would all have a better feel for the situation if some scouting had been done late in the round so the defenses of the Arabian core cities was known. Given what we know I'd have to recommend waiting.
In case you didn't notice Darius already has Literature. Depending on how long he's had it he could have a big head start on GL.
So the pigs/fish/gold city is out for now, until war with Saladin at least.
Given the locations of the AI civs Saladin is the only possible target, so he will have to be the next victim. The big question now is whether to go to war with him ASAP or continue peaceful endeavors for another round (or more
). The success of a near term DoW would likely depend on Saladin not having LBs (and not geting them soon after the DoW). Waiting would probably mean prioritizing medieval military techs and then attacking with a mace/treb led army. I'm not sure how possible it will be to build up an invasion force quickly while one of the two strong
cities is tied up building a wonder. The other cities would have to rely on a lot of whipping to be able to contribute, and whipping away cottage working citizens isn't likely to be a good move long term. Also the options for military units is somewhat limited at the moment since no source of iron is available. I suppose finishing HBR next would allow war elephants, which could probably be used with cats for a successful invasion. But Arabian LBs would make it a bloody endeavor.Waiting for war will allow Aksum to build HE next so that it will be much more productive when building the invasion force. All cities would also have a chance to grow which they really need to do now that the
cap has been lifted.I think we would all have a better feel for the situation if some scouting had been done late in the round so the defenses of the Arabian core cities was known. Given what we know I'd have to recommend waiting.
In case you didn't notice Darius already has Literature. Depending on how long he's had it he could have a big head start on GL.
It has been suggested that the GG be settled in Minoan to whip units for the up coming war. Minoan is going to be your supplemental GP farm. every time you whip it takes away two specialists. Perhaps further down the road it would warrant a GG when drafting rifle/infantry is an option. Settle the GG in aksum which is a production power house and it can churn out units as fast as Minoan can whip and regrow. If you build the Taj, it should be during peacetime since wartime hammers have an obvious priority for units. Aksum can build it much fatser than Babylon, and it won't add to the GP polution in Babylon started by the NP.
Wasting a GS on a golden age this early is just bad in general. It would be better used as an Academy. You get a lot more beakers in the long run than you do from an early GA. It will also make later GA's more expensive. Late game GA's are awesome..early game they are pretty weak.
Delaying machinery to be able to bulb liberalism might not be the best idea. I think Sal is probably researching fuedalism now or will trade for it soon. I doubt optic is his goal, but rather Guilds since this unlocks his UU. We know how the AI likes mounted units. with the CA's built-in extra retreat chances, he can make mince meat of Sis's siege units in no time. He also has ivory as well. So sis should invest in pikes.
That being said, what should sis research next? I am in favor of HBR then machinery and CS for maces. Followed by engineering for trebs then guilds for knights. More cities, (especially mecca shaped cities with big yummy shrines) will provide more beakers than the single tech from liberalism. And will continue to do so for quite some time. Also liberalism doesn't grant By allowing Saladin to establish all those cities, you reduce the chance of attacking with a strong military tech lead because he is teching faster from more cities with the immortal bonus and shrine gold to keep the slider higher. He will also be able to outproduce you in units.
You should redirect all your espionage points towards Saladin to drop dfenses in a single turn. With CA's you might find yourself a little short of siege units quite quickly. I think your priorities should be the big 4 military techs, machinery, CS, Engineering and fuedalism. Starting with Fuedalism. Well right after you finish HBR. Then switch to Vassalage to give your troops the 2nd promotion. If you do switch to vassalage, then build a chariot from a stables and it will have 7exp, make it a super healer instead of settling the GG. The machinery for some x-bows. The CS for maces and finally engineering for trebs and pikes.
Since babylon is not a commerce city, Bureaucracy is not a good fit. Extra producion in your GP farm does not outweigh the extra promotion to all your troops. Once Engineering is in the bag, switch to slavery for a massive whip in all your cities to generate a pile of trebs. 7 cities can whip 21 trebs in about 6 turns. You will want to be in Slavery after the war to whip infrastucture in your new cities. While building your army, make sure you build/whip markets and courthouses in Minoan and Babylon so they can run max specialists. with a library/market/court/forge you can run 7specialists. none of which is not benificial. I would actually hope for a Great spy. So you can steal the techs you fall behind in during the war.
I think my main concern is that if you decide to concentrate on the Liberalism race, you will fall behing even further with the military. To assume that Sal will not attack when he is only cautious would be foolish. You are pretty much tied for the "attack me i am the low man on the powergraph" with ragnar. ragnar is sal's BFF. You are not a true believer. You have a couple diplo hits with sal already. As he researchs the military techs and upgrades you fall farther behind. The Ai is programmed to attack weak civs. You fit that description quite nicely.
Wasting a GS on a golden age this early is just bad in general. It would be better used as an Academy. You get a lot more beakers in the long run than you do from an early GA. It will also make later GA's more expensive. Late game GA's are awesome..early game they are pretty weak.
Delaying machinery to be able to bulb liberalism might not be the best idea. I think Sal is probably researching fuedalism now or will trade for it soon. I doubt optic is his goal, but rather Guilds since this unlocks his UU. We know how the AI likes mounted units. with the CA's built-in extra retreat chances, he can make mince meat of Sis's siege units in no time. He also has ivory as well. So sis should invest in pikes.
That being said, what should sis research next? I am in favor of HBR then machinery and CS for maces. Followed by engineering for trebs then guilds for knights. More cities, (especially mecca shaped cities with big yummy shrines) will provide more beakers than the single tech from liberalism. And will continue to do so for quite some time. Also liberalism doesn't grant
By allowing Saladin to establish all those cities, you reduce the chance of attacking with a strong military tech lead because he is teching faster from more cities with the immortal bonus and shrine gold to keep the slider higher. He will also be able to outproduce you in units. You should redirect all your espionage points towards Saladin to drop dfenses in a single turn. With CA's you might find yourself a little short of siege units quite quickly. I think your priorities should be the big 4 military techs, machinery, CS, Engineering and fuedalism. Starting with Fuedalism. Well right after you finish HBR. Then switch to Vassalage to give your troops the 2nd promotion. If you do switch to vassalage, then build a chariot from a stables and it will have 7exp, make it a super healer instead of settling the GG. The machinery for some x-bows. The CS for maces and finally engineering for trebs and pikes.
Since babylon is not a commerce city, Bureaucracy is not a good fit. Extra producion in your GP farm does not outweigh the extra promotion to all your troops. Once Engineering is in the bag, switch to slavery for a massive whip in all your cities to generate a pile of trebs. 7 cities can whip 21 trebs in about 6 turns. You will want to be in Slavery after the war to whip infrastucture in your new cities. While building your army, make sure you build/whip markets and courthouses in Minoan and Babylon so they can run max specialists. with a library/market/court/forge you can run 7specialists. none of which is not benificial. I would actually hope for a Great spy. So you can steal the techs you fall behind in during the war.
I think my main concern is that if you decide to concentrate on the Liberalism race, you will fall behing even further with the military. To assume that Sal will not attack when he is only cautious would be foolish. You are pretty much tied for the "attack me i am the low man on the powergraph" with ragnar. ragnar is sal's BFF. You are not a true believer. You have a couple diplo hits with sal already. As he researchs the military techs and upgrades you fall farther behind. The Ai is programmed to attack weak civs. You fit that description quite nicely.
In looking at the save I noticed one rather important item that wasn't mentioned in the update. A couple of turns ago Saladin captured the east coast barb city by the pigs. And he kept it.
So the pigs/fish/gold city is out for now, until war with Saladin at least.
Given the locations of the AI civs Saladin is the only possible target, so he will have to be the next victim. The big question now is whether to go to war with him ASAP or continue peaceful endeavors for another round (or more
I'm not sure how possible it will be to build up an invasion force quickly while one of the two strong
Waiting for war will allow Aksum to build HE next so that it will be much more productive when building the invasion force. All cities would also have a chance to grow which they really need to do now that the
I think we would all have a better feel for the situation if some scouting had been done late in the round so the defenses of the Arabian core cities was known. Given what we know I'd have to recommend waiting.
In case you didn't notice Darius already has Literature. Depending on how long he's had it he could have a big head start on GL.
I agree with HE for Aksum right off the bat. Though I am now leaning towards using the GG for a supermedic. If this turns into a medievil war then moving quickly before Sal can research the military techs for all the counter units is key. A stable gets the second promtion for jumbos while fuedalism is teched then Vassalage provides all the rest with a 2nd promo. HE also allows Aksum to spam LB's once fuedalism is researched to up the power rating. This might allow sis to war with sal at his choosing rather than when sal decides. I would switch before the chariots build. Other wise you are wasting 23 hammers. Also it is 160AD, chariots are for grandmothers to drive. Sexy men drive War Elephants. Think pimpmobile with tusks.
I defintaley agree with you on switching the production of Babylon to the plains forests and chopping them as well. If i did the math right if he switchs and chops one set of trees he can whip the GL in 5-6 turns. Having two free scientists for 9 extra turns makes up for the diverted citizens and the lost population. He should be able to regrow in about the same time. If darius builds it in the next 6-7 turns then the short term of lost beakers can be made up with the deficit research from wondergold. If Darious builds it in 8 turns or more then the lost beakers and GS points will really add up between now and Scimed.
Start farming and mining Aksum. With the free GS in Babylon from the GL and the specialists soon to be run in Minoan you really don't need the cottages there any longer. Chop the forest on the soon to be mined hills to get the HE up sooner.
I would have settled the Iron city before the far away (and more expensive) fur city. You are in no great rush for fur. Settling the iron city gets it up sooner for troop production. It can borrow the clams from babylon to grow quickly to whip a granary/barracks/courthouse/forge. At pop 5 it can work the sheep hills, grassland iron and 3 mined grassland hills for 22
eachturn. that is a LB every 4 turns or a treb every6. Not too shabby for a little city. Or even a war elephant every 4 1/2 turns. You need to settle it soon so it can be up and running. Plus iron would help quite a bit for pikes and x-bows. when i say quite a bit, i mean no iron + no pikes or x-bows. You should whip the granary in Minoan either this turn or next turn before it grows to size 5 and the food empties. if you whip it now you get a 1/2 filled food bar when it regrows to size 3 the next turn and you will have about 25 hammers carried over to the courthouse. which are then doubled for the org bonus. You will have 12 food per turn bonus which will grow the city to size 4 in three turns which means you can whip the courthouse. Use the overflowing
from the courthouse to build a lighthouse so you get more tasty Org building bonus. Overflow that towards a library. Should be nearly 40 hammers at this point. With the lighhouse you now have a 14food surplus at size 3 and are one turn from size 4. If i did the math correctly you can have a granary/courthouse/lighthouse/library and a specialist in 14 total turns. You have whip unhappiness for a looooong time, but you have a happy cap there of 11 and can add a few troops as well. The lighthouse whip is only pop1 which isn't usually a good idea, but otherwise it is an 11 turn wait. Eleven turns means 22 food lost. And 11 turns longer for the library. After the library I would start a forge. Then a market so you can run all 7 specialists when you go to the war whip.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
I don't know how closely you've looked at the map, but the first thing that strikes me is that none of Saladin's core cities are on hills, which makes him ripe for a cavalry charge
If it were me playing, I'd be inclined to continue developing the land whilst beelining cuirassiers/cavalry via liberalism for a lightning strike on Saladin in the early renaissance rather than getting bogged down in a medieval slog against protective longbows and a rival with jumbos to boot. The main difference between this game and the Lincoln one is the more delicate diplomatic balance, which means playing catchup after a war is going to be slightly trickier due to the prospect of WFYABTA and AIs being unwilling to part with monopoly techs.
I think it makes sense to look slightly longer term; focus on GS generation (the GLib will help a bunch with this) to race to liberalism (nationalism's not a bad free tech with marble for the Taj), get a decent HE city set up +/- a globe drafting site for city defenders and spam stables around your empire. With a bit of forward planning (and by saving some tech trades for later) you'll be able to back-fill feudalism/guilds/banking, use the GA from the Taj to spam knights while researching military tradition and then do a quick mass-upgrade to cuirassiers to get the war started while you direct your research to rifles. Give every city a couple of workshops and spend the GA in caste system for extra hammer goodness and you'll have production coming out of your ears.
You could even chain two GAs together by popping a great person for one to really pull ahead.
The best military strategy in that case would be to use a traditional melee/siege stack to pick off some nearby or peripheral cities while your main mounted force charged straight to Mecca.
==========
As far as wonders from aesthetics go, I'd be more inclined to build the SoZ (if available) than SP as you've got ivory to hand, so you've more chance of bagging something useful and get a better to 
conversion if you miss out.
If it were me playing, I'd be inclined to continue developing the land whilst beelining cuirassiers/cavalry via liberalism for a lightning strike on Saladin in the early renaissance rather than getting bogged down in a medieval slog against protective longbows and a rival with jumbos to boot. The main difference between this game and the Lincoln one is the more delicate diplomatic balance, which means playing catchup after a war is going to be slightly trickier due to the prospect of WFYABTA and AIs being unwilling to part with monopoly techs.
I think it makes sense to look slightly longer term; focus on GS generation (the GLib will help a bunch with this) to race to liberalism (nationalism's not a bad free tech with marble for the Taj), get a decent HE city set up +/- a globe drafting site for city defenders and spam stables around your empire. With a bit of forward planning (and by saving some tech trades for later) you'll be able to back-fill feudalism/guilds/banking, use the GA from the Taj to spam knights while researching military tradition and then do a quick mass-upgrade to cuirassiers to get the war started while you direct your research to rifles. Give every city a couple of workshops and spend the GA in caste system for extra hammer goodness and you'll have production coming out of your ears.
You could even chain two GAs together by popping a great person for one to really pull ahead.
The best military strategy in that case would be to use a traditional melee/siege stack to pick off some nearby or peripheral cities while your main mounted force charged straight to Mecca.
==========
As far as wonders from aesthetics go, I'd be more inclined to build the SoZ (if available) than SP as you've got ivory to hand, so you've more chance of bagging something useful and get a better
to conversion if you miss out.hey, just a question, what is the empty queue whipping penalty? never heard of it before... cheers
JujuLautre
Deity
It's a mechanism which makes that, if you have no hammer invested for a build, rushing it (whip, universal suffrage) is more expensive.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
Your cities are very spaced out...which is a good thing considering that there are no neighbors on your south or west flanks (there's just water).
Use this as an opportunity to settle some good land in between your existing cities, as well as the land on the western coast.
Since this is Immortal, I reckon that Saladin will upgrade to Longbowmen immediately after getting Feudalism, which could be any time soon, especially if he has trade opportunities with other neighbors.
Don't try to get him before Longbowmen. There's no need for a war that soon. You can use your extra hammers to found some good grassland cities. I see one next to a lake in the western area, and few more on the coast.
Instead, focus on getting to Feudalism quickly and doing a military buildup immediately. You can tech Feudalism yourself and hope that better trade opportunities open up later, such as Machinery or Civil Service. Before you get there, maybe build some Catapults or Elephants.
In the meantime, build maybe 2 more Settlers to settle some of the good land you have between your cities...remember, you're Organized, so courthouses are cheap.
As for religion, I'd delay any commitment now, until you make the next civics switch. If no better options are open at that time, then go for Christianity and take Organized Religion along with Vassalage.
Use this as an opportunity to settle some good land in between your existing cities, as well as the land on the western coast.
Since this is Immortal, I reckon that Saladin will upgrade to Longbowmen immediately after getting Feudalism, which could be any time soon, especially if he has trade opportunities with other neighbors.
Don't try to get him before Longbowmen. There's no need for a war that soon. You can use your extra hammers to found some good grassland cities. I see one next to a lake in the western area, and few more on the coast.
Instead, focus on getting to Feudalism quickly and doing a military buildup immediately. You can tech Feudalism yourself and hope that better trade opportunities open up later, such as Machinery or Civil Service. Before you get there, maybe build some Catapults or Elephants.
In the meantime, build maybe 2 more Settlers to settle some of the good land you have between your cities...remember, you're Organized, so courthouses are cheap.
As for religion, I'd delay any commitment now, until you make the next civics switch. If no better options are open at that time, then go for Christianity and take Organized Religion along with Vassalage.
Do I mis-understand (and/or have the) game mechanics of the granary changed?
I thought that you had to fill the granary first before it would be effective. Thus, if you whip now and then the city immediately grows to the next population level you only have as much food in the granary as you have surplus.
I thought I read that, like most of the game mechanics, it doesn't pay anymore to micromanage the granary build as your are proposing.
You get to keep all the food. It's when you complete the granary with less than half the food bar completed that it has to fill it. Completing the granary doesn't fill it, but if you already have the food then it stays. Also with Minoan's giant food surplus at pop 3 or 4, it only takes a couple turns to fill it regardlesss.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 7: 160 AD to 460 AD (20 turns), Part 1
I started the round by heeding Validator's warning regarding the fact that Darius had Literature already and therefore could have a head start on the Great Library, which I was building in Babylon. So I reassigned Babylon's two scientists to those two plains forest tiles:
I also sent Workers over to chop the other two nearby forests.
I also decided to finish off Horseback Riding.
I wasn't anticipating building any War Elephants or Horse Archers anytime soon (in fact, I built none in this round), but I was hoping just having the tech would help my power rating a little.
I was thinking about building the Shwedagon Paya in order to access Free Religion soon, but lacked gold to help accelerate the build. Nevertheless, I started it in Akkad, temporarily displacing the Christian Missionary, hoping to access gold from somebody. As luck would have it, Mehmed had some gold available early in the round:
Like I said, I wasn't building War Elephants just yet, so I figured I could afford to trade the ivory away temporarily. And once our horse trade came up for renewal in a few turns, I'd renegotiate and get the ivory back.
With gold helping, the SP would be appearing in Akkad shortly. Its culture would also help stave off pressure from Arabic borders nearby.
Ragnar was low man on the totem pole in terms of techs--which must be a position he's not at all used to. I blame it on the tectonics map; he doesn't have the greatest land for a Financial leader. Nevertheless, this meant that I was able to trade obsolete techs to him for gold a couple of times, and then run the research slider at a deficit for a few turns.
However, as you'll see, one of these deals backfired on me.
Since Philosophy is already out there in the field, I thought it was no big deal to trade it around. I may as well be the one benefiting from it rather than anyone else I've traded it too.
I was surprised that Mehmed wouldn't throw in HBR in this deal, especially since I almost had it done. But then again, the Colossus hasn't been built yet.
I decided I may as well do something with that Great General rather than have him sitting around. Since we've pretty much agreed to make Aksum the Heroic Epic city, I decided to settle him there.
I'm hoping not to go to war anytime soon, but we'll have to see.
Some of you urged me to whip the granary right away in Minoan, but I decided to wait just a few turns so that the city was large enough so I could whip away citizens working the low-yield tiles.
I then started the city working on a lighthouse.
It only took a few turns to finish my first tech of the round:
I then started researching Civil Service.
I was able to obtain Feudalism from Darius once he met some of the other civs who had it.
And shortly after that, I completed the Great Library in Babylon.
Woot! That's the first time I've successfully built an early wonder on Immortal level. I pulled my scientists out of the forest and started working on a forge.
In Minoan, I kept whipping buildings, especially since the city lacks any good hammer tiles.
Now that I have Metal Casting, I'm going to put workshops on the city's three unforested plains tiles to assist it with production.
Bad news for any war plans: Saladin obtained Feudalism, and now has Protective Longbowmen:
So I think those of you calling for a post-Liberalism war with Renaissance/early industrial units may have the right idea. Which means trying to stay on Saladin's good side for many, many, many turns. That could be a challenge without a shared religion.
As I mentioned before, I renegotiated my trade deal with Mehmed as soon as I could.
And once Ragnar had a little money in his kitty, I sold him another cheap tech.
However, this caught the attention of other civs, and combined with my declining power rating, it was a recipe for intimidation tactics. Hannibal dropped by and did his best Kray brothers impression.
"Nice place you got 'ere, guv'nor. Be a shame if anything was to, ah... happen to it."
Fine, fine, take the damn gold. (At least it was him rather than his brother... you know, the one who uses sarcasm. <shudder>) At least it got Hannibal to Pleased, and he is currently my best trading partner by far.
On that same turn I finished my next tech:
I was going to pursue Machinery next, but discovered i could trade for it.
Again, normally I don't like trading away Civil Service so soon, but this being Immortal level, I thought I should take advantage of having a tech on the AI. Besides, a couple of other leaders had it, and once again, I figured I should be the one to benefit from trading it. I also think Justinian was researching CS, which would explain why he charged a little extra for Machinery.
I did not change civics to Bureaucracy right away, however, because I was about to have a couple of other new civic options available. With a few turns left in the build, I whipped the Shedagon Paya to completion in Akkad.
That's kind of cool--I'm pretty sure I have never built the SP before.
To be continued...
I started the round by heeding Validator's warning regarding the fact that Darius had Literature already and therefore could have a head start on the Great Library, which I was building in Babylon. So I reassigned Babylon's two scientists to those two plains forest tiles:
I also sent Workers over to chop the other two nearby forests.
I also decided to finish off Horseback Riding.
I wasn't anticipating building any War Elephants or Horse Archers anytime soon (in fact, I built none in this round), but I was hoping just having the tech would help my power rating a little.
I was thinking about building the Shwedagon Paya in order to access Free Religion soon, but lacked gold to help accelerate the build. Nevertheless, I started it in Akkad, temporarily displacing the Christian Missionary, hoping to access gold from somebody. As luck would have it, Mehmed had some gold available early in the round:
Like I said, I wasn't building War Elephants just yet, so I figured I could afford to trade the ivory away temporarily. And once our horse trade came up for renewal in a few turns, I'd renegotiate and get the ivory back.
With gold helping, the SP would be appearing in Akkad shortly. Its culture would also help stave off pressure from Arabic borders nearby.
Ragnar was low man on the totem pole in terms of techs--which must be a position he's not at all used to. I blame it on the tectonics map; he doesn't have the greatest land for a Financial leader. Nevertheless, this meant that I was able to trade obsolete techs to him for gold a couple of times, and then run the research slider at a deficit for a few turns.
However, as you'll see, one of these deals backfired on me.
Since Philosophy is already out there in the field, I thought it was no big deal to trade it around. I may as well be the one benefiting from it rather than anyone else I've traded it too.
I was surprised that Mehmed wouldn't throw in HBR in this deal, especially since I almost had it done. But then again, the Colossus hasn't been built yet.
I decided I may as well do something with that Great General rather than have him sitting around. Since we've pretty much agreed to make Aksum the Heroic Epic city, I decided to settle him there.
I'm hoping not to go to war anytime soon, but we'll have to see.
Some of you urged me to whip the granary right away in Minoan, but I decided to wait just a few turns so that the city was large enough so I could whip away citizens working the low-yield tiles.
I then started the city working on a lighthouse.
It only took a few turns to finish my first tech of the round:
I then started researching Civil Service.
I was able to obtain Feudalism from Darius once he met some of the other civs who had it.
And shortly after that, I completed the Great Library in Babylon.
Woot! That's the first time I've successfully built an early wonder on Immortal level. I pulled my scientists out of the forest and started working on a forge.
In Minoan, I kept whipping buildings, especially since the city lacks any good hammer tiles.
Now that I have Metal Casting, I'm going to put workshops on the city's three unforested plains tiles to assist it with production.
Bad news for any war plans: Saladin obtained Feudalism, and now has Protective Longbowmen:
So I think those of you calling for a post-Liberalism war with Renaissance/early industrial units may have the right idea. Which means trying to stay on Saladin's good side for many, many, many turns. That could be a challenge without a shared religion.
As I mentioned before, I renegotiated my trade deal with Mehmed as soon as I could.
And once Ragnar had a little money in his kitty, I sold him another cheap tech.
However, this caught the attention of other civs, and combined with my declining power rating, it was a recipe for intimidation tactics. Hannibal dropped by and did his best Kray brothers impression.
"Nice place you got 'ere, guv'nor. Be a shame if anything was to, ah... happen to it."
Fine, fine, take the damn gold. (At least it was him rather than his brother... you know, the one who uses sarcasm. <shudder>) At least it got Hannibal to Pleased, and he is currently my best trading partner by far.
On that same turn I finished my next tech:
I was going to pursue Machinery next, but discovered i could trade for it.
Again, normally I don't like trading away Civil Service so soon, but this being Immortal level, I thought I should take advantage of having a tech on the AI. Besides, a couple of other leaders had it, and once again, I figured I should be the one to benefit from trading it. I also think Justinian was researching CS, which would explain why he charged a little extra for Machinery.
I did not change civics to Bureaucracy right away, however, because I was about to have a couple of other new civic options available. With a few turns left in the build, I whipped the Shedagon Paya to completion in Akkad.
That's kind of cool--I'm pretty sure I have never built the SP before.
To be continued...
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 7: 160 AD to 460 AD (20 turns), Part 2
I held off on any civics changes for several reasons, the main one being that I thought it would be a good idea to come back to you folks and discuss it first. In addition, I had a great person due in Babylon shortly and, with so many potential civics changes in the offing (requiring as much as 3 turns of anarchy), I also thought we should discuss whether a Golden Age would be worthwhile.
Then I had the first of several curve balls thrown at me.
Don't be misled by the screenshot, Islam spread to Babylon. Obviously Saladin sent a missionary there. I'd been hoping he'd do that, and now that he has Protective Longbowmen, and I'm weak in military because of all my infrastructure building, I have an opportunity to keep him off my back for a while.
I founded the iron/clam city many of you had been urging me to found for some time:
I still have room in my south for a few more cities on both coasts as well.
Even without the additional cities, thanks to conquering Zara earlier on I'm one of the top three civs in terms of size, which is a very good thing, I think.
Time for curve ball #2: Justinian converted to Islam... and then declared war on his fellow Muslim, Ragnar:
Since both happened on the same turn, Justinian had obviously been planning the war against the Vikings for some time.
He soon asked me to join in:
I declined. As I said, I've been neglecting military for a few rounds. The last thing I need right now is a war.
I played just long enough for my next Great Person to appear, a Great Scientist--no surprise there--in Babylon.
So now we need to discuss what to do with him. I'm very tempted to use him for a Golden Age. I wish I had a larger empire to justify it better, but my main motivation is to do a bunch of civics and religion changes.
I was thinking of switching to Vassalage, Theocracy, and Christianity for the first few turns of the Golden Age and then whipping units in pretty much all of my cities--mostly Longbows, but some Macemen, Crossbows, and maybe even a couple of War Elephants if I can slip a couple of stables into one or two cities. But at this point I'm mainly thinking of enhancing my defense more than my offence.
Then, toward the end of the Golden Age, I switch to Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Organized Religion, as well as converting to Islam. I then can court favour with all the other civs on my continent and keep them off my back so I can expand into the still-available territory to my south and tech toward a gunpowder-based war later on.
Too bad this means I won't get much use out of the Shwedagon Paya after all, but like I said, at least its culture will help a bit, and I also may be able to use it to help generate a Great Prophet to build the Christian shrine.
If I do use the GS for a Golden Age, I was thinking of holding off just a few turns until the forges are done in most of my cities. Of course, the longer I wait to convert to Islam, the greater the risk of a DoW by someone, possibly Saladin--although thankfully, he's not in "We have enough on our hands right now" mode at the moment, and I don't see any big Arabian stacks on my borders.
Just so you know, he would lightbulb Paper at this point. I could also use him for an Academy somewhere, of course.
Anyway, to help guide our decision-making, here's some additional information. First off, a look at the map.
We can now see where Darius is, and also why I have no trade routes with him: he's blocked by a barbarian city. Then again, neither Ragnar nor Saladin have Open Borders with him, so even if the barb city wasn't there I don't think it's possible for me to have trade routes with him prior to Astronomy.
Mehmed's borders are just east of Adrianople, and I think Hannibal shares the same land mass with the Ottomans.
As I mentioned, I think I have room for at least two more cities, one south of Nippur on the coast that would claim the sheep tile, another east of Lalibela that would claim a fish tile and another deer. Saladin has a Swordsman sitting on that spot, so he may be thinking of claiming it. I may have to close borders with him if I see him sending a Settler down there. That would bring me to 10 cities, a respectable number at this stage in the game, especially on a sometimes-tricky tectonics map.
Domestic Advisor:
Forges, forges everywhere. Once they're built, I really need to focus on military for several turns. And I noticed the Colussus wasn't built yet and was going to take less than 10 turns in Babylon even without chops or whipping, so I decided to give it a shot. Between the seafood and many lake tiles I have, it could prove very helpful financially.
Current civics:
So let me know what you think of my Golden Age/multiple civics changes plan. Does it make sense? Should I alter it slightly? Is going to Christianity to leverage Theocracy too risky, even for just a few turns?
Foreign Advisor, Relations:
Glance:
The only other downside to converting to Islam is that it would cost me points with Hannibal, who as I said is my best trading partner. However, he's not as fanatical about religion as many other leaders, and he is on another continent.
Active trade deals:
Resources:
I'll have more fur, incense, and an additional copper coming on-line soon, so I may be able to get more resources, such as either dye or 5 GPT from Saladin.
Info--trade route income and civics:
Ironic: poor backwards Ragnar still doesn't have Monarchy in order to run his favourite civic!
Techs:
As usual, I have no techs to offer those with techs to trade, and those I do have techs to offer won't trade theirs with me. I was thinking of selling Literature to Saladin for 120 gold, which would allow me to deficit research Engineering a little faster. Or maybe I should hold out so I can use it, if needed, to top up a later, more lucrative tech trade.
Victory conditions--it's early, but we may as well have a look.
Power:
This is obviously very troubling. I'm low man on the totem pole here and very vulnerable. Yes, I was relieved when Justinian declared war on Ragnar rather than me! So like I said, the next round has to see me rectifying this situation, both militarily and diplomatically.
Demographics:
And, lastly, espionage:
The saved game file is below.
I held off on any civics changes for several reasons, the main one being that I thought it would be a good idea to come back to you folks and discuss it first. In addition, I had a great person due in Babylon shortly and, with so many potential civics changes in the offing (requiring as much as 3 turns of anarchy), I also thought we should discuss whether a Golden Age would be worthwhile.
Then I had the first of several curve balls thrown at me.
Don't be misled by the screenshot, Islam spread to Babylon. Obviously Saladin sent a missionary there. I'd been hoping he'd do that, and now that he has Protective Longbowmen, and I'm weak in military because of all my infrastructure building, I have an opportunity to keep him off my back for a while.
I founded the iron/clam city many of you had been urging me to found for some time:
I still have room in my south for a few more cities on both coasts as well.
Even without the additional cities, thanks to conquering Zara earlier on I'm one of the top three civs in terms of size, which is a very good thing, I think.
Time for curve ball #2: Justinian converted to Islam... and then declared war on his fellow Muslim, Ragnar:
Since both happened on the same turn, Justinian had obviously been planning the war against the Vikings for some time.
He soon asked me to join in:
I declined. As I said, I've been neglecting military for a few rounds. The last thing I need right now is a war.
I played just long enough for my next Great Person to appear, a Great Scientist--no surprise there--in Babylon.
So now we need to discuss what to do with him. I'm very tempted to use him for a Golden Age. I wish I had a larger empire to justify it better, but my main motivation is to do a bunch of civics and religion changes.
I was thinking of switching to Vassalage, Theocracy, and Christianity for the first few turns of the Golden Age and then whipping units in pretty much all of my cities--mostly Longbows, but some Macemen, Crossbows, and maybe even a couple of War Elephants if I can slip a couple of stables into one or two cities. But at this point I'm mainly thinking of enhancing my defense more than my offence.
Then, toward the end of the Golden Age, I switch to Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Organized Religion, as well as converting to Islam. I then can court favour with all the other civs on my continent and keep them off my back so I can expand into the still-available territory to my south and tech toward a gunpowder-based war later on.
Too bad this means I won't get much use out of the Shwedagon Paya after all, but like I said, at least its culture will help a bit, and I also may be able to use it to help generate a Great Prophet to build the Christian shrine.
If I do use the GS for a Golden Age, I was thinking of holding off just a few turns until the forges are done in most of my cities. Of course, the longer I wait to convert to Islam, the greater the risk of a DoW by someone, possibly Saladin--although thankfully, he's not in "We have enough on our hands right now" mode at the moment, and I don't see any big Arabian stacks on my borders.
Just so you know, he would lightbulb Paper at this point. I could also use him for an Academy somewhere, of course.
Anyway, to help guide our decision-making, here's some additional information. First off, a look at the map.
We can now see where Darius is, and also why I have no trade routes with him: he's blocked by a barbarian city. Then again, neither Ragnar nor Saladin have Open Borders with him, so even if the barb city wasn't there I don't think it's possible for me to have trade routes with him prior to Astronomy.
Mehmed's borders are just east of Adrianople, and I think Hannibal shares the same land mass with the Ottomans.
As I mentioned, I think I have room for at least two more cities, one south of Nippur on the coast that would claim the sheep tile, another east of Lalibela that would claim a fish tile and another deer. Saladin has a Swordsman sitting on that spot, so he may be thinking of claiming it. I may have to close borders with him if I see him sending a Settler down there. That would bring me to 10 cities, a respectable number at this stage in the game, especially on a sometimes-tricky tectonics map.
Domestic Advisor:
Forges, forges everywhere. Once they're built, I really need to focus on military for several turns. And I noticed the Colussus wasn't built yet and was going to take less than 10 turns in Babylon even without chops or whipping, so I decided to give it a shot. Between the seafood and many lake tiles I have, it could prove very helpful financially.
Current civics:
So let me know what you think of my Golden Age/multiple civics changes plan. Does it make sense? Should I alter it slightly? Is going to Christianity to leverage Theocracy too risky, even for just a few turns?
Foreign Advisor, Relations:
Glance:
The only other downside to converting to Islam is that it would cost me points with Hannibal, who as I said is my best trading partner. However, he's not as fanatical about religion as many other leaders, and he is on another continent.
Active trade deals:
Resources:
I'll have more fur, incense, and an additional copper coming on-line soon, so I may be able to get more resources, such as either dye or 5 GPT from Saladin.
Info--trade route income and civics:
Ironic: poor backwards Ragnar still doesn't have Monarchy in order to run his favourite civic!
Techs:
As usual, I have no techs to offer those with techs to trade, and those I do have techs to offer won't trade theirs with me. I was thinking of selling Literature to Saladin for 120 gold, which would allow me to deficit research Engineering a little faster. Or maybe I should hold out so I can use it, if needed, to top up a later, more lucrative tech trade.
Victory conditions--it's early, but we may as well have a look.
Power:
This is obviously very troubling. I'm low man on the totem pole here and very vulnerable. Yes, I was relieved when Justinian declared war on Ragnar rather than me! So like I said, the next round has to see me rectifying this situation, both militarily and diplomatically.
Demographics:
And, lastly, espionage:
The saved game file is below.
fugazi
King
I'd go for the golden age. The new civics and religion will greatly help you, much more than an academy and 3-4 turns of anarchy would
jason77024
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2007
- Messages
- 208
Heh. I was thinking of the Vercotti brothers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNj1dXi-z0M#
(about 1:35 in, for those not familiar)
This would be hilarious if incorporated into the game. Imagine a rival civ pops up and says "Nice Angkor Wat you've got there..."
Edit: It is there!
Spoiler :
Jason
You're a brave man, Sis, for starting the Colossus this late. 
Oh well, no matter how it works out, the extra gold will be worth it.
Normally I would never recommend using a GS for a Golden Age, but in this case, with all the civic changes you need to make, I think it's your best option. You're still building infrastructure, so I would start the GA *now* and revolt to Xtianity/Bureau/OR. (Hold off on CS, since your cities can use one more round of whipping, esp. the low-hammer ones.) Finish Colossus (or collect the gold), spam Islamic missionaries, and once the Forges are done, switch to Islam and CS/Vassalage/Theo (if you're going to commit to a war against Saladin) or CS/Pacifism (to squeeze out more GPs) or CS/FR to show off your shiny new wonder.
"Heathen religion" penalties build up over time, so a brief flirtation with Christianity shouldn't piss off Saladin too much. The biggest risk is having him close borders on you, which would cut off your trade routes from the rest of the world (maybe...I'm not clear on how that works) but once you join the Islamic lovefest, all previous transgressions will be forgiven.
Engineering's a solid choice. Follow it up with Guilds/Gunpowder/Banking, and start working towards Chemistry & Rifling. Trade to backfill techs like Paper & Compass when the opportunity arises. DON'T be alarmed if the AI's get Education before you do...you can run Free Religion (either now or after the war) so whaddaya need Liberalism for??
Don't delay getting those last two cities built -- ESPECIALLY the fish/deer city, because Sally will grab it if you don't. You *need* an east coast port, to build ships and explore Hannibal/Mehmed's territory!
Poor Darius hasn't met half the world's civilizations yet...no wonder he's so far behind!
Oh well, no matter how it works out, the extra gold will be worth it.Normally I would never recommend using a GS for a Golden Age, but in this case, with all the civic changes you need to make, I think it's your best option. You're still building infrastructure, so I would start the GA *now* and revolt to Xtianity/Bureau/OR. (Hold off on CS, since your cities can use one more round of whipping, esp. the low-hammer ones.) Finish Colossus (or collect the gold), spam Islamic missionaries, and once the Forges are done, switch to Islam and CS/Vassalage/Theo (if you're going to commit to a war against Saladin) or CS/Pacifism (to squeeze out more GPs) or CS/FR to show off your shiny new wonder.
"Heathen religion" penalties build up over time, so a brief flirtation with Christianity shouldn't piss off Saladin too much. The biggest risk is having him close borders on you, which would cut off your trade routes from the rest of the world (maybe...I'm not clear on how that works) but once you join the Islamic lovefest, all previous transgressions will be forgiven.
Engineering's a solid choice. Follow it up with Guilds/Gunpowder/Banking, and start working towards Chemistry & Rifling. Trade to backfill techs like Paper & Compass when the opportunity arises. DON'T be alarmed if the AI's get Education before you do...you can run Free Religion (either now or after the war) so whaddaya need Liberalism for??
Don't delay getting those last two cities built -- ESPECIALLY the fish/deer city, because Sally will grab it if you don't. You *need* an east coast port, to build ships and explore Hannibal/Mehmed's territory!
Poor Darius hasn't met half the world's civilizations yet...no wonder he's so far behind!
I would use the GS for Paper and buy Darius' map (for construction). You want to time the solo-GP golden age for the upcoming war which should be delayed until you get a few more technologies. Taking advantage of the current peace and your (soon-to-be) #1 production rating you should be able to get enough power without resorting to a massive civics change just yet. You may also be able to avoid using a GP for a golden age altogether and instead use your marble and Paper to get Nationalism and the Taj Mahal.
Since you've used the GG for an instructor AND you have stables you can create numerous 5XP+ units without vassalage or theocracy. The cities that cannot generate 5XP units can focus on suicide catapults or infrastructure.
I would tempt fate and switch to OR and Christianity (maybe wait a few turns and see if Ragnar pulls Sal into the war). Keep in mind that given the power differentials either Ragnar will most likely capitulate to Justinian pretty quickly or vassalize to Saladin. Not sure how this affects the short-term strategic plans but something to consider.
Focus on spreading around Islam and Buddhism to many of your cities (and be sure to build a few monasteries for each) and hope a 4th religion spreads to your newly founded cities. Going forward health is going to be your main limiter (right now you are not even making use of the HR happy in your cities). You will probably want to stagger in some aqueducts and trade for compass when you can.
Ragnar does have Monarchy (he can research Feudalism) though hasn't revolted to HR yet (probably because of the war declaration).
You are still in slavery with lots of happy cap. Just keep your eye on Saladin and any SoDs that he moves to your border. You can hedge the risk by not using the GS until the next GP comes out (20 or so turns) though getting paper and maps and moving on with your research (Nationalism + Constitution) would seem to be a better bet. You will be able to draft city busters and/or cleanup units. If you go this route mandatory cheap barracks for all cities is recommended.
Possible Wartime Civics (hopefully you'll have all these before war is declared)
Representation + Nationalism + Caste System + *Mercantilism(guilds->banking) + Theocracy (this will want a golden age if you do them all at once during the war buildup)
*Once you are at war with Saladin you are going to lose your trade routes until you either clear out his coastal cities or get Astronomy.
Guilds will also open up gunpowder which goes well with drafting and aggressive.
Drafted L3 Aggressive Muskets(cleanup)/Stabled Jumbos/GG Trebs+catapults(siege) should be good. Saladin has machinery so muskets > macemen (especially since you will have trebs doing the city raider attacks). Along with your existing army you should be able to overcome the protective advantage through initial XP and promotions pretty quick, plus you have the production advantage.
Since you've used the GG for an instructor AND you have stables you can create numerous 5XP+ units without vassalage or theocracy. The cities that cannot generate 5XP units can focus on suicide catapults or infrastructure.
I would tempt fate and switch to OR and Christianity (maybe wait a few turns and see if Ragnar pulls Sal into the war). Keep in mind that given the power differentials either Ragnar will most likely capitulate to Justinian pretty quickly or vassalize to Saladin. Not sure how this affects the short-term strategic plans but something to consider.
Focus on spreading around Islam and Buddhism to many of your cities (and be sure to build a few monasteries for each) and hope a 4th religion spreads to your newly founded cities. Going forward health is going to be your main limiter (right now you are not even making use of the HR happy in your cities). You will probably want to stagger in some aqueducts and trade for compass when you can.
Ragnar does have Monarchy (he can research Feudalism) though hasn't revolted to HR yet (probably because of the war declaration).
You are still in slavery with lots of happy cap. Just keep your eye on Saladin and any SoDs that he moves to your border. You can hedge the risk by not using the GS until the next GP comes out (20 or so turns) though getting paper and maps and moving on with your research (Nationalism + Constitution) would seem to be a better bet. You will be able to draft city busters and/or cleanup units. If you go this route mandatory cheap barracks for all cities is recommended.
Possible Wartime Civics (hopefully you'll have all these before war is declared)
Representation + Nationalism + Caste System + *Mercantilism(guilds->banking) + Theocracy (this will want a golden age if you do them all at once during the war buildup)
*Once you are at war with Saladin you are going to lose your trade routes until you either clear out his coastal cities or get Astronomy.
Guilds will also open up gunpowder which goes well with drafting and aggressive.
Drafted L3 Aggressive Muskets(cleanup)/Stabled Jumbos/GG Trebs+catapults(siege) should be good. Saladin has machinery so muskets > macemen (especially since you will have trebs doing the city raider attacks). Along with your existing army you should be able to overcome the protective advantage through initial XP and promotions pretty quick, plus you have the production advantage.
You may also want to start considering whether you are going to delay Economics (and build castles) and/or Scientific Method (and build additional monasteries). If the late game idea is to have free religion boosting our science then the extra monasteries will help make that possible. With Nationalism + Constitution being prioritized (and having a war around the same time) the benefits of castles are greatly increased. The added security as well as the espionage boost that we can use to cause Sal's cities to revolt will make warring easier. Courthouses are already key buildings and castles naturally leveraging that fact. The only downside is the lack of stone.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
You're Hammurabi up against Saladin...that's Aggressive vs. Protective. Even if you delay warring until the Renaissance, you'll be seeing Saladin get a defensive advantage to match your offensive advantage, unless you pull ahead of him in military techs.
The alternative, of course, is superior numbers, which can be attained more easily by correct placement of the Heroic Epic. The way to get a big army without incurring excessive upkeep is by leveraging Organized to build a large population during peacetime, with the maintenance kept in check by your cheap courthouses.
You can take this a step further and adopt Vassalage as your main civic, possibly adding in Theocracy as well for 9 XP non-mounted units in your HE city, and 9 XP mounted units in other cities.
There a several strings you can pull to leverage the advantages you have in this particular game:
1) Use Organized to run high-upkeep Vassalage and medium-upkeep Theocracy, but paying only half the normal upkeep.
2) Again use Organized to support a peaceful expansion of new cities within your existing borders.
3) Grow your cities to high population (preferably 12+) in order to maximize the Vassalage free unit bonus.
4) Tech to Chemistry and Military Science and build a large force of Macemen, and then upgrade them to Grenadiers. After Saladin gets Riflemen, upgrade your Macemen to Grenadiers and invade.
5) Declare peace a few times to gain the needed techs for Riflemen.
6) Finish off Saladin and the rest of the continent.
The alternative, of course, is superior numbers, which can be attained more easily by correct placement of the Heroic Epic. The way to get a big army without incurring excessive upkeep is by leveraging Organized to build a large population during peacetime, with the maintenance kept in check by your cheap courthouses.
You can take this a step further and adopt Vassalage as your main civic, possibly adding in Theocracy as well for 9 XP non-mounted units in your HE city, and 9 XP mounted units in other cities.
There a several strings you can pull to leverage the advantages you have in this particular game:
1) Use Organized to run high-upkeep Vassalage and medium-upkeep Theocracy, but paying only half the normal upkeep.
2) Again use Organized to support a peaceful expansion of new cities within your existing borders.
3) Grow your cities to high population (preferably 12+) in order to maximize the Vassalage free unit bonus.
4) Tech to Chemistry and Military Science and build a large force of Macemen, and then upgrade them to Grenadiers. After Saladin gets Riflemen, upgrade your Macemen to Grenadiers and invade.
5) Declare peace a few times to gain the needed techs for Riflemen.
6) Finish off Saladin and the rest of the continent.
This may be a good time to take a step back and consider the big strategic picture before deciding how to proceed.
Long term I see Hannibal, Mehmed and the unknown civ being the biggest threats to victory in this game. Darius could even be a problem if he eventually manages to befriend somebody.
It doesn't appear to me that taking Saladin's land is going to put you into a position to play peacefully for a win from there. You're going to need to fight additional wars to gain enough land.
I don't think you can afford to wait for gunpowder to launch an attack on Saladin. Consider:
- The sooner you gain control of Arabian lands the sooner they can start contributing to your empire.
- Saladin's cities will be putting cultural pressure on tiles needed by your cities. Khurasan may take one of Aksum's hills.
- The longer you wait to fight Saladin, the more time he has to improve his defenses (most notably by building castles). While all of the Arabian cities are on flat land, all of the new Arabian cities in the east are on hills. The fact that they're new makes them much easier to take now rather than later.
- The more time it takes to finish off Saladin, the more time the next victim (most likely Justinian ) has to develop, leading to better defended cities and a longer war. And so on...
- Once the AIs get Astronomy fighting wars becomes more complicated because you have to be prepared for naval invasions from any civ that joins in.
Once Engineering is researched you have access to all of the units needed for a successful medieval war. Guilds for knights would be helpful, but aren't essential since maces and trebs will be the core of your invasion force. Pikes, LBs and X-bows will be available for defense. There's no reason to wait for war.
Unfortunately most of your cities don't offer a lot of production, so you're going to have to rely on Aksum, Babylon and Akkad for most of your unit production.
Aksum should build HE as soon as the forge is done, and then concentrate on military units for the rest of the game. Only acceptable buildings are XP boosters,
multipliers and any needed /
providers.It may be worthwhile to build some workshops around Babylon to improve its production.
Gondor and Lalibela should be developed as commerce cities, which means cottages instead of workshops. They can slow build any multiplier buildings.
If the plan is to go to war with Saladin sooner rather than later I don't see any need to switch to Islam. You'd be making friends with the 3 lowest scoring civs, while at the same time taking a diplo hit with the top civs. Just go for FR, which also means you don't have to spend
s on missionaries.I don't know if Babylon is the best choice for a Bureaucratic capital. Mainly it would be benefitting from the extra
s. Vassalage may be a better option.Although Caste System would have its advantages I would probably stick with Slavery for the foreseeable future. Minoan and any new cities are going to need to
to get buildings done.With only 2 civic changes to make (FR plus Vassalage or Bureacracy) I wouldn't waste the GS on a golden age at this point. An academy in either Babylon or Gondar would be more valuable long term. Or just save the GS to bulb the majority of Edu.
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