ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
you need fr/bureau - that's 2 civics, 1 turn; save the gs for edu imho.
with high prod., you can either have capitol producing gold to keep slider up, or produce troops and invade saladin(though imho it's a sure way of dropping behind in stone age - 1 move armies to cover great distances, and no knights to have a sure defence against xbows).
problems:
- I like cottages, however there are games when I don't build them in quantity either; however... some cottages are needed; you kinda need at least 1-2 commerce cities. You kinda have none, nor do you have representation.
- see if you can bribe feud to ragnar to end the war; otherwise gift it to him asap; eventually gift him some spare troops or he'll end up under justinian. Gift, not trade, as otherwise he won't have cash for upgrade; try to get world map from him so you don't get too many diplo demerits;
This would also have the bonus that, without war, maybe justinian would be smart enough to build the ap. 4 hammers/city, since you built forge, 5, without even requiring you to have a state religion, are too good to pass up.
- both hani and mehmet are trustworthy; they don't attack at pleased, so... keep them pleased
- post rifles and sally it shouldn't be a big philosophy to domi given the production on this map.
- if you war, build troops; otherwise, beside some lbows so sally has somethin' to bash into, don't... trying to keep up in power graph is ugh...
with high prod., you can either have capitol producing gold to keep slider up, or produce troops and invade saladin(though imho it's a sure way of dropping behind in stone age - 1 move armies to cover great distances, and no knights to have a sure defence against xbows).
problems:
- I like cottages, however there are games when I don't build them in quantity either; however... some cottages are needed; you kinda need at least 1-2 commerce cities. You kinda have none, nor do you have representation.
- see if you can bribe feud to ragnar to end the war; otherwise gift it to him asap; eventually gift him some spare troops or he'll end up under justinian. Gift, not trade, as otherwise he won't have cash for upgrade; try to get world map from him so you don't get too many diplo demerits;
This would also have the bonus that, without war, maybe justinian would be smart enough to build the ap. 4 hammers/city, since you built forge, 5, without even requiring you to have a state religion, are too good to pass up.
- both hani and mehmet are trustworthy; they don't attack at pleased, so... keep them pleased
- post rifles and sally it shouldn't be a big philosophy to domi given the production on this map.
- if you war, build troops; otherwise, beside some lbows so sally has somethin' to bash into, don't... trying to keep up in power graph is ugh...
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Best. Metaphor. In an ALC thread. EVER.
Er... Gondar and Lalibela are both awash with cottages. And what difference does representation make to commerce/cottages? It benefits specialist economies more.
carl corey
Deity
I'm thinking that's meant as an "either/or" comment: you either have cottages, or representation and specialists.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
didn't load the save, and from the image seemed there aren't; my bad
representation is for se, obviously; that's why I said you don't have it - without it, you need some cottages, or that se won't exactly be se. If you don't have either se or ce... well, games without economy are dubious
ok, it's hammer, but then hammer without at least guilds... 2 hammer workshops with caste is also yuck
representation is for se, obviously; that's why I said you don't have it - without it, you need some cottages, or that se won't exactly be se. If you don't have either se or ce... well, games without economy are dubious
ok, it's hammer, but then hammer without at least guilds... 2 hammer workshops with caste is also yuck
carl corey
Deity
Hmm, SE without Pyramids is not an SE? I wonder if we've ever had this debate before...
In case it isn't obvious the answer is "yes, we have" and "yes it still is an SE". I've done it several times at Emperor level, and it works nicely. If you want to discuss this further though I'd start another thread, as I don't want to clog the ALC with our off topic discussion.
In case it isn't obvious the answer is "yes, we have" and "yes it still is an SE". I've done it several times at Emperor level, and it works nicely. If you want to discuss this further though I'd start another thread, as I don't want to clog the ALC with our off topic discussion.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
yes, it's se; I just think it's a se that doesn't work too good without caste, and then caste cancels the whip(ergo, I hate caste )
and you're right, let's not start this up
and game related - I'd also stick 2 cities on that island with the barbarian city east of darius
)and you're right, let's not start this up
and game related - I'd also stick 2 cities on that island with the barbarian city east of darius
2 turns?
Justinian declared on Ragnar...
Ragnar at war (against someone else) == GOOD
How do you trade units?
Neither us nor Ragnar (and he isn't even close) have paper...and we don't really want it right now (it would be nice but the GS has better uses - academy)
Actually, Judaism as the AP is better than Islam since when we conquer our continent we will have few (none) Jewish cities until the very end.
They are also off-continent and we aren't exactly hurting for production (to repel a naval landing). We'll be in FR eventually so by the time they become a threat religion shouldn't be a factor.- both hani and mehmet are trustworthy; they don't attack at pleased, so... keep them pleased
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
bah, thought it's normal speed; my bad
ragnar, with crappy land, classical age units(he doesn't have either feud, nor cs) = vassal ragnar; aka bad. It's not like has and catas beat maces and xbows in this game... If war is stopped now, justinian won't redeclare, as he'll be pleased with ragnar and he doesn't declare at pleased; eventually ragnar will declare sometime on him, only to get a beating, but then with one more bribe, probably everything should be all right.
leaving aside there's something called "max distance" at which the ai declares, and ragnar won't declare half a continent away anytime soon...
gift feud., not units...
5 hammers with forge vs defyin' a resolution eventually... 5 hammers will always be better. It's more or less a free US for any commerce city. And it comes about 2k years before you see any towns.
Siesta Guru
Prince
Please take this advice with a huge amount of salt, im just a silly prince player and immortal slaughters me.
Id drop the colossus, your not working that much water tiles, and theres no doubt another civ is going to beat you to it. Sure you get a nice amount of gold but those hammers can be spend in better ways. Too much gold will attract those beggers anyways.
Talking about begging, you could lways try begging some more from justinian and hannibal.
As for the scientist, with all those scientist gp points in babylon youll get more scientists there so you should be focussing on short-term boosts rather then the long-term boost of the academy. And the settling is basicly a lousy version of the academy with scientists so thats a no-go aswell.
Papers pretty worthless for you aswell, sure the map trading is nice but you should be focussing on techs you can trade for usefull techs rather then tech those usefull techs yourself (unless your in the tech lead ofcourse) . Paper can only be traded for theology atm.
The golden age however is incredibly usefull at the moment, anarchy free civic swaps is very usefull and that bureaucracy civic alone beats the acadamy (50% more commerce usually beats 50% science and the production bonus is awesome).
Id go with the golden age for just the civic swap, but luckily it gets even better because youll get the normal effects of it aswell.
The religious civic choice is a difficult one, so please dont heed my advice concerning that. It seems to me that saladin with its pesky overpowered longbowman will defeat you if you attack him, but he doesnt have much of a chance if hes on the attacking side, so making him pleased or friendly is not a high priority, he'll remain cautious if you switch to free religion anyways.
And thats my advice, the science bonus is sweet and picking organized religion (or theocracy) with islam would just piss off hannibal, mehmed and darius while giving little immediate bonusses since islam isnt really widespread in your empire yet.
As for the tech path... Youll most likely lose the liberalism race on this difficulty level (even with democracy and free religion running). So investing in that is jsut a waste, invest in other techs and get the usefull liberalism path techs on the way. Id go for guilds asap, which can probably be traded for some juicy techs.
Id drop the colossus, your not working that much water tiles, and theres no doubt another civ is going to beat you to it. Sure you get a nice amount of gold but those hammers can be spend in better ways. Too much gold will attract those beggers anyways.
Talking about begging, you could lways try begging some more from justinian and hannibal.
As for the scientist, with all those scientist gp points in babylon youll get more scientists there so you should be focussing on short-term boosts rather then the long-term boost of the academy. And the settling is basicly a lousy version of the academy with scientists so thats a no-go aswell.
Papers pretty worthless for you aswell, sure the map trading is nice but you should be focussing on techs you can trade for usefull techs rather then tech those usefull techs yourself (unless your in the tech lead ofcourse) . Paper can only be traded for theology atm.
The golden age however is incredibly usefull at the moment, anarchy free civic swaps is very usefull and that bureaucracy civic alone beats the acadamy (50% more commerce usually beats 50% science and the production bonus is awesome).
Id go with the golden age for just the civic swap, but luckily it gets even better because youll get the normal effects of it aswell.
The religious civic choice is a difficult one, so please dont heed my advice concerning that. It seems to me that saladin with its pesky overpowered longbowman will defeat you if you attack him, but he doesnt have much of a chance if hes on the attacking side, so making him pleased or friendly is not a high priority, he'll remain cautious if you switch to free religion anyways.
And thats my advice, the science bonus is sweet and picking organized religion (or theocracy) with islam would just piss off hannibal, mehmed and darius while giving little immediate bonusses since islam isnt really widespread in your empire yet.
As for the tech path... Youll most likely lose the liberalism race on this difficulty level (even with democracy and free religion running). So investing in that is jsut a waste, invest in other techs and get the usefull liberalism path techs on the way. Id go for guilds asap, which can probably be traded for some juicy techs.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Sis, good game so far and I have not followed it until today for other reasons in my life. SO you have some insight from someone dropping in on the last segment
1) I agree delaying war until gunpowder, and the best way to do that is make nice with your nearest neighbors which are Saladin and Justinian. And the best way is to adopt Theocracy AND Islam. If you can get sal to declare on Ragnar great, then join in for diplomatic points, but I think that is tough to do.
2) Techpath looks like paper/education/liberalism. You can use the second GS to bulb education. Bulbing Paper with the first does not make alot of sense as you are not really going to want to trade it arround as you want to win the liberalism race.
3) Great Scientist: You have 44 beakers in Babylon, add Bureacracy +50% commerce AND and an Academy you with almost double that. That boost with pay for the few lost turns in anarchy. Plus you may get the Colossus which adds even more commerce. I say build an academy NOW in Babylon, tech paper, bulb education with the next GS.
4) Civics: Bur. and Theocracy for sure with Islam. Just suck up the anarchy. Slavery can stay for now.
5) Build an islam Monestary in Babylon for the missionaries AND the +10% beakers after the colossus is built.
6) Spam lonmgbows/crossbows out of that city you settled the GG in after the forge.
1) I agree delaying war until gunpowder, and the best way to do that is make nice with your nearest neighbors which are Saladin and Justinian. And the best way is to adopt Theocracy AND Islam. If you can get sal to declare on Ragnar great, then join in for diplomatic points, but I think that is tough to do.
2) Techpath looks like paper/education/liberalism. You can use the second GS to bulb education. Bulbing Paper with the first does not make alot of sense as you are not really going to want to trade it arround as you want to win the liberalism race.
3) Great Scientist: You have 44 beakers in Babylon, add Bureacracy +50% commerce AND and an Academy you with almost double that. That boost with pay for the few lost turns in anarchy. Plus you may get the Colossus which adds even more commerce. I say build an academy NOW in Babylon, tech paper, bulb education with the next GS.
4) Civics: Bur. and Theocracy for sure with Islam. Just suck up the anarchy. Slavery can stay for now.
5) Build an islam Monestary in Babylon for the missionaries AND the +10% beakers after the colossus is built.
6) Spam lonmgbows/crossbows out of that city you settled the GG in after the forge.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
There's a drawback to going for Liberalism. If you trade away Liberalism, you might be giving Hannibal a chance to run away in the tech race by adopting Free Speech. Same thing goes for Education and Oxford University.
If you don't trade away Liberalism or Education, then we hardly gain any benefit from them. Do we have Stone for Oxford University? And do we have enough hammers to build 6 universities?
We already have access to Free Religion through S.Paya. And with all the alternatives available, we might not want to run Free Speech ourselves. So that greatly lessens the value of Liberalism itself, aside from the free tech.
If you don't trade away Liberalism or Education, then we hardly gain any benefit from them. Do we have Stone for Oxford University? And do we have enough hammers to build 6 universities?
We already have access to Free Religion through S.Paya. And with all the alternatives available, we might not want to run Free Speech ourselves. So that greatly lessens the value of Liberalism itself, aside from the free tech.
fjordan
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2007
- Messages
- 210
And here are the votes from fjordan:
- Vassalage / Free Religion / Slavery through anarchy
- Academy
- Beeline Steel through the bottom techs for a Musket / Cannon war. You can start with some phants already.
Oh and cancel some of your trade deals. They do nothing for you but they do for the enemy. Try to get gpt or else renegotiate when you are really at your happy cap. Some happy police can postpone that moment.
- Vassalage / Free Religion / Slavery through anarchy
- Academy
- Beeline Steel through the bottom techs for a Musket / Cannon war. You can start with some phants already.
Oh and cancel some of your trade deals. They do nothing for you but they do for the enemy. Try to get gpt or else renegotiate when you are really at your happy cap. Some happy police can postpone that moment.
carl corey
Deity
Sisiutil, I just realized something that I disliked about your proposal for a Golden Age civic change to military civics and back: we'll be whipping units *during* the Golden Age. Meaning we'll lose worked tiles and so GA bonuses. I understand that going the other way around (switching to military civics at the age of the GA) means you'll have to switch back at some point *with* anarchy. Not sure what I'd do here... (ok, I know what I'd do, I'd switch at the end of the GA and probably get my ass kicked for staying too long in Christianity...)
I'm starting to like Vassal/FR as the civic change. Only takes two (3?) turns, supports extra units, doesn't piss anyone off, adds a little science/culture/happiness, and (most importantly) doesn't require starting a Golden Age right now. As a bonus, Sisiutil gets to show off his shiny new Wonder.
I still think starting a GA could give our empire a quick boost, allowing us to micromanage civic swaps for 10 turns (and will get the next GS out faster, don't forget!) -- however, saving the GA until later is a lot more efficient. So...regarding the scientist, I'll vote for an Academy in Babylon.
Don't swap civics until Colossus is done, though. With a 7-turn build time, it's definitely worth going for it.
I still think starting a GA could give our empire a quick boost, allowing us to micromanage civic swaps for 10 turns (and will get the next GS out faster, don't forget!) -- however, saving the GA until later is a lot more efficient. So...regarding the scientist, I'll vote for an Academy in Babylon.
Don't swap civics until Colossus is done, though. With a 7-turn build time, it's definitely worth going for it.
carl corey
Deity
Yeah, Vassal/FR looks to me like the better choice here. Plus the GS for Academy in a city that will have at least four scientists (2 from GL, 2 from library).
The only thing I'm a bit against is finishing the Colossus. I know it looks easy to finish, but the question is, what do we finish it for? We're not going to work too many water tiles as others have pointed out. Maybe for the GM points? I'd rather build it to within one turn of completion and get money for it.
The only thing I'm a bit against is finishing the Colossus. I know it looks easy to finish, but the question is, what do we finish it for? We're not going to work too many water tiles as others have pointed out. Maybe for the GM points? I'd rather build it to within one turn of completion and get money for it.
Keep in mind that while the anarchy due to civic swapping during a GA is eliminated the minimum time between switches is not (the one proactive reason a spiritual leader would still want the Christo Redeemer). What is the minimum time between civic swaps on epic? I play marathon and you get, IIRC, 15 turns of GA (could be 16) and 5 turns wait between civic swaps; so you could switch 3 times total; start, middle, end. Also, can you switch your state religion AND civics on the same turn during a GA? Normally you cannot switch either during anarchy so you can only do one at a time (though religion is always 1 turn).
Hereditary Rule
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 294
ratrangerm
Prince
I'd personally go with Vassalage and Free Religion. Vassalage, when combined with cities with a Barracks, will mean you can produce Level 3 units right off the bat. Theocracy will only really benefit cities that don't have Barracks, and you've got several built already if I'm not mistaken. And in cities where you plan to produce military units on a regular basis (as opposed to just during war time), you'll want Barracks there anyway.
FR is better than Theocracy, IMO, because gaining happiness from more than one religion in a city will help with war weariness, plus the science boost will help.
Use the GS for an Academy... two turns of Anarchy isn't bad. Definitely do not bulb for Paper... two civs will trade it to you, so you might be able to get it, along with more on top of it, for Engineering.
As for war with Saladin, it might be a good idea to build up your medieval units and declare war with the intent of weakening him and seizing a couple of cities. While that goes on, you research better military techs, then when you make peace with Saladin, rebuild/improve your forces, then finish him off.
Do watch carefully, though, to see if Saladin joins the Justinian/Ragnar war on Ragnar's side. He is quite chummy with Ragnar and might be willing to go to bat for him. If that does happen, it would be tempting to strike while Saladin is occupied with Justinian.
EDIT: As far as the AP goes, I'm betting Mehmed is building it, since he's willing to trade Paper but not Theology with you, while the other two civs with it will.
FR is better than Theocracy, IMO, because gaining happiness from more than one religion in a city will help with war weariness, plus the science boost will help.
Use the GS for an Academy... two turns of Anarchy isn't bad. Definitely do not bulb for Paper... two civs will trade it to you, so you might be able to get it, along with more on top of it, for Engineering.
As for war with Saladin, it might be a good idea to build up your medieval units and declare war with the intent of weakening him and seizing a couple of cities. While that goes on, you research better military techs, then when you make peace with Saladin, rebuild/improve your forces, then finish him off.
Do watch carefully, though, to see if Saladin joins the Justinian/Ragnar war on Ragnar's side. He is quite chummy with Ragnar and might be willing to go to bat for him. If that does happen, it would be tempting to strike while Saladin is occupied with Justinian.
EDIT: As far as the AP goes, I'm betting Mehmed is building it, since he's willing to trade Paper but not Theology with you, while the other two civs with it will.
Der Graf
Omnipresent Eye
My 2 
You'd be able to choose Chemistry, then get Military Science for some early Grens (and Military Academies btw - hey, that's half an HE). And upgraded CRII-Grens will kill even Protective Longbows.
If Gunpowder is not available without loosing Lib, get Nationalism for Taj Mahal and an GA (or Printing Press for more gold ? Maybe choose Gunpowder ? Well, glad it's your game)
And concentrate your EP on Hannibal and then Mehmed for some turns. They both have Paper and maybe already researching Education. That would screw the whole Liberalism thing up for sure
- Get Paper asap
- Bulb Education with GS
- Research Lib until 1 turn to completion
- Try to research Gunpowder (maybe impossible on immortal)
- Finish Lib
You'd be able to choose Chemistry, then get Military Science for some early Grens (and Military Academies btw - hey, that's half an HE
). And upgraded CRII-Grens will kill even Protective Longbows.If Gunpowder is not available without loosing Lib, get Nationalism for Taj Mahal and an GA (or Printing Press for more gold ? Maybe choose Gunpowder ? Well, glad it's your game
)And concentrate your EP on Hannibal and then Mehmed for some turns. They both have Paper and maybe already researching Education. That would screw the whole Liberalism thing up for sure
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