ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[Artichoker]

I see the S. Paya as a significant asset here. As Validator mentioned, you can use it to adopt Free Religion without requiring Liberalism.

Actually, there are several techs you can skip, at least until the Industrial Era:

1) Liberalism
2) Nationalism

With Organized, the effectiveness of Nationhood is lessened in comparison to Vassalage thanks to the half civic upkeep bonus, which applies to Vassalage but not Nationhood.

Free Speech loses effectiveness for the same reason, and Free Religion is already accessible through S. Paya.

3) Theology

You already have S. Paya built, so there's no reason to get this tech.

4) Education

You're not Philosophical, so it will be a pain to build Universities, let alone Oxford University itself.

5) Paper

Since you won't be needing Liberalism or Education, might as well skip Paper as well.


Now that you have S. Paya and Feudalism, I think the right move is to make a permanent civics change to Vassalage and Free Religion. Forget about the Liberalism race and concentrate on getting to Chemistry first.

 

[azzaman333]

I think if Saladin isn't dead before he gets Muskets, you'll lose the game. Whip up an army and kill him, keeping in mind that war is by far the AI's weakest point.

 

[popejubal]

Two quick thoughts:
Build the Colossus. You have the copper to produce double hammers for it and the extra commerce would be helpful. I'd suggest that the gold you get for not completing it might be even more helpful, though. Consider building it to within one turn of completion (and don't work any low yield tiles like plains forests since you're not worried about actually finishing it) and then enjoy the giant chunk of gold that you get for it.

Hannibal asked you for some gold. Go ask for some back. He has 60 gold and Justinian has 180. Go out there and get that cash! Cash generated in high gold-multiplier cities is more effecient than cash generated in low gold-multiplier cities, but cash begged from an AI civ is more efficient than any other kind. If they're above cautious, remember to beg early and beg often.

Don't forget to ask for Hannibal's maps for free while you're at it.

 

[Polobo]

Since paper is not necessary for Nationalism I change my recommendation to an academy as well. Once engineering is done starting to prepare for war is good but it is unlikely you'll be ready before your next technology which should be nationalism. I disagree on the value of Nationalism. We are going to war and will be whipping so the net cost of vassalage will remain steady (we'll lose some free units) while our # of cities and distance costs increase. Even half-priced you'll be spending more than 0 gold and so nationhood will save you money while allowing for drafting to augment your military production. Early on, numbers will be important since we are attacking a fortified protective leader.

Free religion is good for later (or if you do go for vassalage). With nationhood you will want Theocracy for the XP boost (and Christianity to save hammers).

Caste system is situational. It is more helpful if you run nationhood/theocracy (to get culture without music) and less so if under free religion (since most/all cities we capture will have a religion). Aside from that staying in slavery until you need the specialists for the economy will make installing infrastructure easier. Although, running Caste System with Guilds and focusing on putting down farms and workshops for an immediate boost (later converting to cottages) is a possible plan as well.

Alternatively, pickup drama after nationhood and whip theaters in newly captured cities.

 

[CivCorpse]

Drama enroute to nationalism. Globe in Minoan and you can draft your little warmongering heart out. With aksum spitting out troops faster than a bulemic actress at an all-u-can eat buffet. And minoan drafting defensive troops you can overwhelm Saladin with sheer numbers. I would definately get it in gear now, because CA's are hell on siege units. Maces Jumbos and cats for offense and LB's for defense. Waiting for trebs and knights can kill you.
Akkad needs some serious farming.
Bureaucracy isn't a strong option for you as Babylon is not a commerce heavy capital nor a production capital. Vassalage until Nationhood. Then nationhood and theocracy. By the time you get Globe and Nationalism set up you should have a solid army developed. So you won't have to tip-toe about as much dilpomatically. I would hold off on Justinian until rifles. Cataphracts are bad juju.

 

[CivCorpse]

Free religion is good for later (or if you do go for vassalage). With nationhood you will want Theocracy for the XP boost (and Christianity to save hammers).
.

Alternatively, pickup drama after nationhood and whip theaters in newly captured cities.

How does Christianity save hammers? Is the AP christian? Or did you mean saved hammers from missionaries? Islam may cost some hammers, but the shared religion will let Sis crank out the army without crazy sal attacking too soon. Plus spreading Islam will give more happiness with FR

 

[Polobo]

How does Christianity save hammers? Is the AP christian? Or did you mean saved hammers from missionaries? Islam may cost some hammers, but the shared religion will let Sis crank out the army without crazy sal attacking too soon. Plus spreading Islam will give more happiness with FR

Yes, I meant from not needing to spread Islam to cities where we want the bonus.

I agree that we will eventually want to spread Islam but prefer not having to do so when we need to raise an army still.

We are only 10 turns from Engineering and being able to (at worst) whip in some castles for emergency defense (though ideally we can get some setup once the war starts and we need more EP and TR commerce to stay afloat). Trebs will be key to attacking his protective cities. As will spies...HAVE WE BUILT ANY YET?

Speaking of EP, I still don't see where we've focused our spending on Saladin. Knowing when he is going for gunpowder (and/or engineering) would be very helpful as we could time our DoW accordingly. Better yet, if we swap in Christianity we may be able to get him to declare on us. At this point (with engineering in hand and researching nationalism) a DoW by Saladin would be a good thing. We should be able to fend off an attack at whatever city he decides to attack first with little difficulty (those we may want to order a batch of new whips). Even if we aren't ready to assault his cities we should be able to knock down his SoD in our territory both equalizing the power graphs and avoid the WW.

I think the drama/globe gambit would be better served once the war has started. We can setup a few immediately in our high production core cities but save the other required buildings for the new conquests. The newly drafted units will be of better use as city garrison reinforcements once the initial build-up defenders get used up. Happy isn't going to be a huge concern early so building theaters in the core is of less importance; the hammers are better used for units. If we can draw Saladin onto our land then this is ever more the case.

I would guess Saladin is headed down the optics and music/drama paths right now so we should still have some time from that standpoint.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Looks like Mehmed II is building the Appoc Palace.

and as a result it'll end up Jewish.

Saladin is Darius's worst enemy, but not vice versa.

I was going to suggest, building the Appoc palace yourself, but 5 turns at 100% research, with some cities making gold, then the build of 600 hammers, might seem too much.

If you were going to go this route, Golden age with Scientist, AFTER achieving the tech, switch to Bureaucracy and organized religion with Christianity and pump it out in Baby town (Babylon). Pump out the troops to boost up your rating.

Note, Mehmed's allready in Organized religion/Bureaucracy, so forget that idea, unless you feel he's going Hagia Sofia in capital, and Appoc palace in 2nd city.

At the end of Golden age, Change religion to Islam and Theo, to appease Sally and Justee, gaining 2+ points for religion/civic.

Thus the 2 Girls, Sally and Justeen will go to +6 (sally) and +10 (Justeen).

This will eliminate the 'heaten religion' for the X'ian Time, and allow you to war oversea's with back covered.

Trouble is, as soon as you hit either of the girls, and we all know, hitting a girl by a man (Maucho men excluded) is not allowed. Hitting ON a girl, conversely is OK

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Just a Quick note, Darius, doesn't know either Hannibal or Mehmed, so they are on separate land masses, separated by ocean.

Not that it mean much, but diplomatically, you may need to take this into account.

Further note, it'll take 12 turns to build with Bureaucracy, organized religion and 1 priest specialist. If you want to under X-ian flag

 

[Artichoker]

Since paper is not necessary for Nationalism I change my recommendation to an academy as well. Once engineering is done starting to prepare for war is good but it is unlikely you'll be ready before your next technology which should be nationalism. I disagree on the value of Nationalism. We are going to war and will be whipping so the net cost of vassalage will remain steady (we'll lose some free units) while our # of cities and distance costs increase. Even half-priced you'll be spending more than 0 gold and so nationhood will save you money while allowing for drafting to augment your military production. Early on, numbers will be important since we are attacking a fortified protective leader.

Numbers are important, I agree...but how do we get those numbers? You mentioned whipping and drafting. Chances are that we won't need both. We already have the HE (at least the necessary tech) to augment production.

If the pre-renaissance battles are successful, then with proper play our army size will increase rather than decrease. If Saladin gets Rifling before or during the war, then Grenadiers will be the key to defeat him. Grenadiers can either be built from scratch or upgraded from Macemen, but they can't be drafted.

The Vassalage + Free Religion combo has a bit more base upkeep than Nationhood + Theocracy (High+Low vs. None+Medium), but this base upkeep is cut in half thanks to Organized. On the other hand, the free unit bonus is not cut in half, and we also get the +10% science from FR. I've never checked the numbers with an Organized leader, but I know that for non-Organized they can be very close, when you take the +10% science into account. But the real strength of FR is the non-religion factor, which is especially important in this game.

Anyway, my previous post about ingnoring Paper and Education can be taken with a grain of salt. It's an option definitely, as Universities are expensive to build. You can get Education before Gunpowder to make it cheaper, or you can go for Gunpowder first for the military value.

 

[CivCorpse]

I agree with Artichoker that gunpowder should come before education. We're going to war. We need weapons. We want Sally-cities not universities.
With regard to garrison troops for newly captured cities, pikes and muskets if possible. Or pikes and LB's if not. Either way, you need lots of pikes. Jumbos are a good counter for the camel archers when moving the SoD, but they cannot get any defensive bonuses. With all the hills in the tectonics map pikes definately have the edge. And pikes produced in aksum can be combat2-formation right off the bat.
I still favor Islam for theocracy. Chistianity would just coax Saladin into attacking. Missioanries are 60 each on Epic speed. They can be whipped every 3rd turn from Minoan once it is spread there.
Though I think vassalage would be the better choice. It is diplomatically nuetral and more cost effective than Burueacracy. Babylon is going to be running specialists and one gains about 20 comerce from Bureaucracy. Vassalage saves 10gpt in unit costs and does not require 510 to implement(90 for a monastary and 420 for missionaries, assuming none fail to spread). FR in place of Theocracy gives 10% civ-wide which is 13bpt. Pretty much exactly what 20 commerce in Babylon would net. Actually with a library babylon gets 17bpt extra gpt and 12 Vassalage and FR nets 13bpt 10gpt and saves 510 (42turns worth of hammers saved). Also FR will increase as the cottages and in Gongor and Lalibela mature and as more specialists are run in Babylon.
Why aren't you whipping more agreesively in Minoan? The few turns spent waiting to whip aren't lowering the number of citizens whipped by that much. Happiness is not a problem and you have food to spare. Crack the whip. What good is a major food center like that if you are trying to build things with the puny hammers available. Whip the forge and then a barracks. whip troops whip whip whip. If not then switch to caste system and run a pile of specialists. By this time you could have a granary/library/courthouse/lighthouse/barracks and be nearly ready to whip a forge. whip whip whip.
Dump the collosuss. It gets you a whopping 7 commerce. You're not working that many water tiles. And won't be for a long time to come. You're better off investing the hammers in three monasteries. +30% total increase in babylons bpt.
More cottages in Gondor and labiela please.

 

[CivCorpse]

@Polobolo. Re: granary whipping. In an offline game I discovered that whipping with one turn left to grow leaves an empty granary but whipping with two turns left gives you a full granary. Evidently growth occurs before the building finishes thus emptying the food box. Whipping with two turns left gives a granary the turn before growth, thus keeping the food box half full.

 

[JujuLautre]

I don't know if you saw correctly, but this is not as a granary is supposed to work.

Each turn, for a city with +F food, both the foor bar of the city and the granary gain F food (with a max of food bar size/2 for the granary).

WHich means that if, after whipping the granary, you have two turns at +3 food before growth, you should get 6 food in the granary, not the whole.

 

[Artichoker]

I agree with Artichoker that gunpowder should come before education. We're going to war. We need weapons. We want Sally-cities not universities.

I see a huge potential for saving beakers in this situation, partly thanks to S. Paya.

If we prioritize Chemistry after Gunpowder, that opens up Grenadiers (with Military Science) and Cannons (with Steel). Whether or not Saladin gets Rifling, this puts us at an advantage. We could be seeing Grenadiers vs. Longbows, or Grenadiers + Cannons vs. Musketmen. Even Grenadiers + Trebs vs. Riflemen is a favorable situation.

On the economic side, by prioritizing Gunpowder via Guilds, we also open up Grocers, and we can also research Banking to open up Mercantilism and Banks. The entire Liberalism path of techs will become an afterthought.

 

[CivCorpse]

I don't know if you saw correctly, but this is not as a granary is supposed to work.

Each turn, for a city with +F food, both the foor bar of the city and the granary gain F food (with a max of food bar size/2 for the granary).

WHich means that if, after whipping the granary, you have two turns at +3 food before growth, you should get 6 food in the granary, not the whole.

I went back and checked from the 160ad save. My apologizes for the misinformation. With the massive food excess of Minoan it appeared to start full. The excess food from minoan basically filled it with the overflow. +12 is a wonderful thing.

 

[JTMacc99]

Hmm, good point about the Grens. I remember back in the day when they were very popular. It would be refreshing to see them in action again, especially since a big stack of them is probably the first real opportunity to pick up some more land in this game.

 

[popejubal]

Dump the collosuss. It gets you a whopping 7 commerce. You're not working that many water tiles. And won't be for a long time to come. You're better off investing the hammers in three monasteries. +30% total increase in babylons bpt.

I agree with CivCorpse on not wanting to complete the Colossus, but please don't just drop it right now. You want your military techs to use on Saladin as soon as possible to get his territory integrated and functioning in your empire and ready to begin your victory plans. If you can deficit research at 100%, then you'll get there in 60% of the time (2/3 more research per turn). Right now, you have a little spare cash, but missing the Colossus would net you a big chunk of change. Considering that you get about 2 gold for each "real" hammer invested because of the resource bonus, this is a bargain.

Also, don't forget that gold that magically drops from the sky (lost wonders, priest/merchant specialists, shrines, "extra" overflow from whips, etc.) into cities with better gold multipliers (and your hammer multiplier counts directly as a gold multiplier here) count for even more than they appear to because you have to consider how much commerce you would have to generate at your empire-wide gold multiplier to see the commerce-equivalent that this gold would have.

I'd estimate your empire-wide commerce-to-gold multiplier as between 1.1 and 1.2 depending on how many Marketplaces you have built. 150 "real" hammers sunk into the Colossus would turn into 300 gold which is the equivalent of about 270 commerce. That commerce ends up being about 340 beakers.

340 beakers for 150 hammers... the Colossus is a great investment in this game - as long as you don't complete it.

(And don't forget to go begging for gold and World Maps from your neighbors - that's even more deficit research that you can do for absolutely no cost!)

 

[carl corey]

The bad thing about Grens is that you can't draft them. And now they're even farther down the tech tree than before. I've yet to use Grens post-BTS, so I'd be interested to see if they turn out to be useful here.

Also, we have to remember that Grens only have an attacking bonus against Rifles. That makes them vulnerable to Rifles while moving between cities.

 

[Polobo]

I'd estimate your empire-wide commerce-to-gold multiplier as between 1.1 and 1.2 depending on how many Marketplaces you have built. 150 "real" hammers sunk into the Colossus would turn into 300 gold which is the equivalent of about 270 commerce. That commerce ends up being about 340 beakers.

340 beakers for 150 hammers... the Colossus is a great investment in this game - as long as you don't complete it.

Actually it is even better than this since Babylon has a forge (pre-requisite build for Colossus) so 125% hammer multiplier instead of 100%. I would concur that getting the gold is more valuable than getting the wonder. Aside from the seafood and lakes you are not going to want to work coastal tiles and having the gold now can be leverage much better than having some extra commerce over the next 100 turns or so (until you research or trade for astronomy).

 

[CivCorpse]

I'd estimate your empire-wide commerce-to-gold multiplier as between 1.1 and 1.2 depending on how many Marketplaces you have built. 150 "real" hammers sunk into the Colossus would turn into 300 gold which is the equivalent of about 270 commerce. That commerce ends up being about 340 beakers.

Ummm, i believe the number of markets currently built is zero