ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

[Dhaulagiri]

Think Scottish highlander. They only took on the english directly when the odds were in their favor. Otherwise they stayed in the hills and made pillaging runs.

So you might declare war earlier than usual, when your first 4 GW's are built. Pre-position them outside sally's border near his strategic resources. DoW and pillage those resources, then proceed to pillage every resource and road as you build more GW's. With Dun's you have little to fear of counter attack, especially if your copper city is on a hill.

Often the AI will send reinforcements to the city he thinks most under threat (and leave only 2 archers in his capital!). So threaten medina while pillaging and building more GW's, then zip up the hill chain with your assembled army to his capitol and take it. Raze other non-stellar cities, then take your now veteran army back to Medina and kill Sally for good.

 

[Morgawr]

Mansa is the ultimate trading maniac - he'll trade with everyone, (except for when he's Furious or if they're his worst enemy), trades monopoly techs, and has the highest WFYAGTA limit.

BUT he's nice to have as a trading partner only when you're both equally advanced. At Immortal, he will most likely have outteched you by the time one of you gets Alphabet. By then, it might be more strategic to trade more with Saladin so you don't help Mansa get even further ahead. I would be in favor of attacking Mansa first if the geography allows it.

 

[ratrangerm]

I don't have the appropriate patches, so I can't open the saved game. Therefore, the questions I would ask since Sis didn't address them in his post.

* Did he build any Work Boats in the capital yet? If not, he needs them ASAP so he has additional food in the capital and can whip out units.

* I would imagine Sis' next build would be another Worker so he can get the Copper online sooner, correct?

Assuming he has not built a Work Boat, that means the capital needs at least one (ideally two) so he can use the chop/whip strategy to get some units out from the capital.

If he builds on top of the Copper, and doesn't have any Work Boats from the capital yet, then he will still be delayed in getting units out. We want to improve those tiles so we can whip. Otherwise, the city won't grow quick enough for whipping to truly be effective.

If the Worker he currently has spends time hooking up the Copper, that's sooner that city 2 can build Axemen. Since it's likely to be a production city, we want it to concentrate on that, so getting the max hammers possible is ideal. Hence, the Copper should be available and mined while also working farmed Wheat (which gets a hammer as well) and then perhaps grow to size three and work one more hammer tile.

Getting the Cows in city 2's BFC would be nice, but we may want to keep that for Medina once that city is taken. So I wouldn't worry too much about getting the Cows (along with the fact Sally will likely get it in Medina's BFC first).

So... I vote for 1NE of the Copper, use the Workers to get it hooked up, then start farming the Wheat with one Worker while the other helps chop Work Boats/Barracks/units in the capital. City 2 should start the Barracks and time the build so the Copper is hooked up about the same turn that Barracks is completed. Then get those Axemen cranked out.

Thus the next tech would obviously be Agriculture, then AH so you know where Horses are (if doing an Axe rush, it's important to know if Sally has Horses... if he does, you need Spearmen to counter Chariots). Then head for IW and the UU can come later to supplement the Axes.

 

[Bandobras Took]

settling on the copper loses 3 hammers. not worth it.

Settling 1 NE loses 3 grassland tiles (including spices) and only gains a Flood Plains that's in Medina's BFC anyway.

Yes, the 3 extra hammers is nice, but settling directly on means you get extra hammers without having to tie up food to work them.

 

[Jet]

Did he build any Work Boats in the capital yet?
No. I was kind of surprised, since he researched Fishing. But I guess he hoped to see a resource or otherwise good city spot nearby and wanted to grab it before barbs made it harder to.

I would imagine Sis' next build would be another Worker so he can get the Copper online sooner, correct?
Personally I'd settle on the Copper and chop Worker, WB, WB.

If he builds on top of the Copper, and doesn't have any Work Boats from the capital yet, then he will still be delayed in getting units out.
Yeah, but less delayed.

 

[Validator]

I don't understand all this talk of settling on the copper. The notion that it allows axes to be built sooner doesn't make sense as vicawoo and ratrangerm have pointed out, because there are other build priorities for the cities in the short term. Bibracte needs 2 WBs, another worker (at least) and a barracks before starting on military. Vienne will need at least a barracks (preceded maybe by a monument?). The worker will only take 10 extra turns to hook up the copper vs. settling on it. So either way the copper will be hooked up and ready to go when either city will be ready to build its first axe.

Medium term there is a significant loss of s in Vienne by settling on copper. Once CS makes irrigation chaining available the NE of copper site will be able to work the wheat, cows, 1 farmed FP and 2 farmed grassland for +11 . That's enough to work 5 mined plains hills (1 with copper) and 1 mined grassland hill. That's 28 s at pop 11. Settling on copper can't match that output at that point in the game. The extra food may give the copper site a small advantage late in the game when all the workshop boosters are available, but by then there should be enough production available in other cities for this difference to be negligible. And if a monument isn't built the NE of copper site wins out in the early game too (although I can't see why you wouldn't build a monument if settling there ).

I think the major decision that will impact the build sequences (especially how much whipping is used) is whether IW will be researched after Agr. If IW is chosen then I think you're going to want to work the silver mine full time to shorten IW research time. And grow the city enough to work the 2 clams for their commerce. That would suggest no whipping in Bibracte for a while (i.e. until pop 6 at least).

In support of going for IW I found something interesting in Sisiutil's "Early Rush Guide":

Are they [swordsmen] worth the delay? Possibly, especially if you’re facing a tough opponent such as a Protective leader. Another consideration is your research. If you’re fortunate enough to start near a high-commerce tile such as gold, gems, or silver, you may be able to accelerate research enough to finish researching Iron Working long before your opponent has anything better than Archers to field in response.

This seems to be exactly the situation in this game. And we're dealing not with regular swordsmen, but with a swordsman based UU that doesn't even require getting lucky with a source of iron. No-brainer?

 

[Peachrocks]

There's another good thing about having Mansa nearby. It might be too late for the GW or even not a good idea regardless but the espionage economy I've learned works rather well with Boudica. If Mansa rockets ahead, you could use espionage tech stealing to reel him back in...

Interesting suggestion on waiting for Gallic's cus of the silver start. It could be done, especially if Saladin definately has no way to access Cooper... and I definately support not settling on the Cooper...

 

[patagonia]

This seems to be exactly the situation in this game. And we're dealing not with regular swordsmen, but with a swordsman based UU that doesn't even require getting lucky with a source of iron. No-brainer?

I like this idea - shock axe or two for stack protection and a whole lotta Gallics. The extra 1.1 str +10% inherent city raider bonus makes them far superior to axes against cities however you promote them and since there are plenty of other necessary builds right now (workers, WBs, monuments, barracks), it won't delay a war much to get IW researched first.

It's by no means essential, but taking Sal out early certainly seems like a good option here. If you're worried about a lack of trading partners later on, just reduce him to one city and leave him to fester. Cha makes motherland unhappiness less of an issue in the early game.

 

[pigswill]

Barax makes sense for an aggressive leader, maybe shock axe and medic spear and the rest gallic warriors. It would be nice if S could get open borders before the invasion to check out cities and resources (maybe a scout between military builds); obviously this depends on Sally getting writing.

 

[Jet]

The notion that it allows axes to be built sooner doesn't make sense

No, it doesn't not make sense. Less time hooking up the copper means more time chopping. It really is faster. If you don't think that's worth it, that's fine.

It would only *maybe* not be faster if by settling with both wheat and copper in the first ring, you did an axe rush without building a monument there. But I wouldn't do that, since the monument gives you happy, cultural defense, forest hammers, and fogbusting.

 

[Siesta Guru]

Ah too bad i missed the first round, ah well...

Id settle on the copper, youll have it available instantly and get 3 other 3 resources in your BFC. Spam those axes, rush saladin, then get alphabet so you can get those sweet techs off mansa.

 

[vicawoo]

5 turns for 30 hammers (6 if you consider movement), that's 6 (5) hammers per turn to chop. Compare that to the 3 hammers per turn you lose to not building a mine.

 

[kazapp]

Speed is of the essence. Sis already knows the hidden costs of waiting to rush.

Not waiting for the UU (i.e. starting to build your army way before researching IW) is appropriate for the ALC because it gives the right educational message: Not all UUs are worth focusing on.

 

[v8_mark]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned (apologies if I've just missed it) is that Saladin has ivory. If he gets to Construction and HBR then he'll have elephants on the production line, for which Sis has no counters until pikes. If Saladin and Mansa become close, that's going to happen sooner rather than later. I don't think waiting very long is an option.

 

[vicawoo]

Ok, instead of the turns building a mine you chop instead (and you get an extra worker turn). +30 hammers, and 1 worker turn. 10 turns later, the makes up for that. So are you going to rush him <15 turns after you settle?

 

[azzaman333]

My gut feeling says settle on the copper, build axes, tech IW, rush Sally with Gallics for reinforcement.

 

[JTMacc99]

Validator: I understand and pretty much agree with your hammer analysis of the copper city.

The reason I think that ON the copper works better has to do with Medina and the eventual cites near the cow/ivory (to the east) and fish/spices (to the SW). By settling 1NE of the copper, that city ends up sharing 4 tiles with Medina, which looks like it is also sharing two with Saladin's capital. In my experience with Boudica, she really needs at least a couple heavilly cottaged commerce cities, and Medina will be exactly that.

Settling on the copper pretty much makes the Fish/Spice site worthless, but I don't see much of a problem with that. It also makes more efficent use of the land for the city I think should go 1E of the mountain by the cows. That city will probably pick up a strategic resource in the grassland hills to the east, making it another good production city that won't be generating a lot of commerce. Again, to me, it looks like just another reason why Boudica needs to capture the two Saladin cities ASAP and start making them commerce cities.

Medina NEEDS those two tiles that the Copper city would be sharing. One will be generating tons of commerce and the other will be providing much needed hammers to build the many commerce buildings that city will need.

Of course, I'm no genius when it comes to this game and could be way off in my analysis, but that doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion.

 

[Joshua368]

Medina doesn't have to be included in long-term plans.

 

[Artichoker]

Settling 1 NE loses 3 grassland tiles (including spices) and only gains a Flood Plains that's in Medina's BFC anyway.

Yes, the 3 extra hammers is nice, but settling directly on means you get extra hammers without having to tie up food to work them.

I hadn't noticed the Grasslands, except for the one with the Spice. In that case, I'd settle on the Copper right away...

 

[Artichoker]

I don't understand all this talk of settling on the copper. The notion that it allows axes to be built sooner doesn't make sense as vicawoo and ratrangerm have pointed out, because there are other build priorities for the cities in the short term. Bibracte needs 2 WBs, another worker (at least) and a barracks before starting on military. Vienne will need at least a barracks (preceded maybe by a monument?). The worker will only take 10 extra turns to hook up the copper vs. settling on it. So either way the copper will be hooked up and ready to go when either city will be ready to build its first axe.

Medium term there is a significant loss of s in Vienne by settling on copper. Once CS makes irrigation chaining available the NE of copper site will be able to work the wheat, cows, 1 farmed FP and 2 farmed grassland for +11 . That's enough to work 5 mined plains hills (1 with copper) and 1 mined grassland hill. That's 28 s at pop 11. Settling on copper can't match that output at that point in the game. The extra food may give the copper site a small advantage late in the game when all the workshop boosters are available, but by then there should be enough production available in other cities for this difference to be negligible. And if a monument isn't built the NE of copper site wins out in the early game too (although I can't see why you wouldn't build a monument if settling there ).

I think the major decision that will impact the build sequences (especially how much whipping is used) is whether IW will be researched after Agr. If IW is chosen then I think you're going to want to work the silver mine full time to shorten IW research time. And grow the city enough to work the 2 clams for their commerce. That would suggest no whipping in Bibracte for a while (i.e. until pop 6 at least).

I'll have to disagree with you for a change. The potential of the on-Copper site to act as a hybrid production/commerce city by having the Spice and extra Grasslands will far outweigh the slight production advantage the 1NE-Copper site has in production after the nearby tiles are developed.

After Saladin's cities are taken, the priority will shift to economic recovery, and the extra commerce of the on-Copper city will give it the advantage over the 1NE-Copper site.