ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

[Lord Parkin]

I would also settle first before doing all the math, because you never know, there could be a coastal fish in the fog (2E or NEE), which would add more power to Pigswill opening.
(note that I didn't open the save, so I decline all responsability if you get another coastal clam )

There may or may not be more seafood in the fog (although it'd be rather insane if there was still more ), but either way I don't think that affects the choice of a Work Boat first. I now think that the seafood that we can already see, as well as the fact that we started with Fishing (and factoring in the time it takes to research AH)... all means that a Work Boat seems to be the logical first build.

Excellent start. Amsterdam looks to be a production monster post Dutch UB. You may want to consider building the Moari Statues there also giving you 2 hammers per coastal tile, the cows, and at least 3 plains hills good for 4 hammers mined, and 5 with railroad.

Yeah, it could be a good Moai Statues site... but there might be better ones around too. We just don't know at the moment, so let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Still, good to keep in mind.

After AH I am not sure at Immortal. You may need protecting archers early so maybe hunting/archery. Or perhaps Mining/Bronze Working. You also probably want either sailing or the wheel to establish trade between cities.

With all the hills and forests around, I think Mining -> Bronze Working after Animal Husbandry would probably be the best strategy for this start on any difficulty level.

Sailing can wait for now, it's not a first priority. The Wheel may be needed if we have a strategic resource to hook up, but for now it's far lower on the agenda than Bronze Working.

Thats the entire thing isnt it?

Look you can have the workboat out by turn 12 on epic by working the plain hills. Worker build costs 23 turns?
Go for the fish tile, so not only are you using a 6 yield tile instead of a 3 tile for 8 more turns your city will grow for 8 turns more, which is enough to hit pop 2. which gives you 24 (8*3) extra networth yield during that time.
So now you have a city pop 2, 6 more yield and an investment in another workboat which will pop in 10 more turns.
workboat hits, you hit pop 3, you build worker while working 3 tiles worth of 16 yield after 30 turns.
A worker first build will net at the 28-29th turn one 6 yield tile?
Not only that but after working the 2nd cow you wont have BW so that means idle worker turns. 21 turns to be exact.
If you dont believe it by all means try it out for yourself

In my mind now, I don't think there's any doubt about whether we should build a Work Boat first or not. The question now seems to be whether it's worth building a second Work Boat straight after the first, or a Worker. Personally I suspect that the Worker next (followed by the second Work Boat) would give a greater benefit, but that's just a hunch - I haven't done any calculations to back it up. If someone else wants to look into that, they'd be most welcome to.

What a great start. 2 sea food, 2 cows, a late happy resource, fresh water from lake and 3 plains hills in sight. At size 7 this baby will have a production base of 19 hammers!!! and will still be growing. That is just superb. Settling in place is the most logic thing to do.

Yep, indeed. It's a superb starting location - much better than usual for the difficulty level.

I will be following this with great interest. I hope you will make Sisiutil proud LP and thx for keeping the series going.

Cheers! I'll do my best.

Huts can only give you techs you can research, and if you don't have a city yet you cannot research any techs. So popping the hut before the city is founded means you cannot get a tech from the hut.

Okay, good to know.

Whether that argues in favor or against is up to you.

I'm fairly sure it argues strongly in favour of Settling before getting the hut. On the high difficulty levels, a free tech is usually the best thing you can possibly hope for from a hut - so we should make sure our chances of getting one are as high as possible!

 

[budweiser]

In my mind now, I don't think there's any doubt about whether we should build a Work Boat first or not. The question now seems to be whether it's worth building a second Work Boat straight after the first, or a Worker. Personally I suspect that the Worker next (followed by the second Work Boat) would give a greater benefit, but that's just a hunch - I haven't done any calculations to back it up. If someone else wants to look into that, they'd be most welcome to.

You could go AH>Mining>BW while building boats and then whip a worker. The pop will grow back fast.

 

[Lord Parkin]

You can't get a tech if you pop the hut before you have any cities. This can actually be kind of nifty on Settler/Cheiftain since you get more workers/settlers that way. On Immortal, it seems like a no-brainer to settle first.

Exactly.

Also, this is an absolutely outstanding starting city. It doesn't have gold or gems, but is does have a great production base and a great amount of food. There's enough food that you can easily grow past your happy cap, but there's also enough decent tiles that aren't food that you can work that you're not guaranteed to wipe out your in the way so many of my coastal seafood starts end up. I'll be very interested to see some micromanagement advice and discussion in the early turns of this game since there are lots of high yield tiles here. Maintaining a balance between growth to grab those high yield tiles and needed to sustain that growth will be very interesting.

Sure thing - I'll make sure to note down my micromanagement choices when I play the start.

One thing that I'd like to advocate is a (relatively) early work boat that can be sent out as a scout. Even if a barbarian eats the workboat when it is half way around the continent, you'll still end up with an awful lot of explored land and probably a few AI civ contacts/trade routes. The earlier you get that workboat out exploring, the more time you'll have to explore without worrying about

Worrying about...? Looks like you didn't finish your sentence.

But yes, an early exploring Work Boat would be exceptionally useful on this type of map. I think we might even be able to justify more than one exploring Work Boat, since we're likely to have a heck of a lot of coast to explore. A Galley at some stage with a Warrior or Scout would also be fairly handy too, since there'll probably be a few sizeable empty land masses worth exploring.

A start like that is likely to yield a pretty close neighbor.

I'm a bit dubious about this statement. What's your rationale for saying that? Personally I've never noticed any connection between how "good" a start is, and how close the neighbours are likely to be. Besides, this map has a lot of land and relatively few players - I think it's unlikely that we're going to bump into anyone too close for that reason.

 

[Lord Parkin]

You could go AH>Mining>BW while building boats and then whip a worker. The pop will grow back fast.

Wait until Bronze Working to whip the Worker? I think that'd do more harm than good, really. That's a lot of Worker turns that wouldn't have been used pasturising the two Cows and farming the Incense (not to mention the turns that we couldn't get the full yield from the two luscious Cows). No, I think the time invested to build a Worker in the very early turns is well worth the reward of superb early workable tiles.

 

[budweiser]

Wait until Bronze Working to whip the Worker? I think that'd do more harm than good, really. That's a lot of Worker turns that wouldn't have been used pasturising the two Cows and farming the Incense (not to mention the turns that we couldn't get the full yield from the two luscious Cows). No, I think the time invested to build a Worker in the very early turns is well worth the reward of superb early workable tiles.

I think someone should do the math. It was said earlier you can get a boat in 10 turns. You will need 2 or 3 boats anyway. How many turns is it to be-line BW while working the clams and fish vs a worker build? It feels like it should work, you are trading growth turns for worker build turns and then cashing in on a worker in one shot when BW comes and then you can chop.

 

[pigswill]

Interesting point is that once the worker has pasturised the cows she'll have little to do until BW. (I'm not sure if its worth farming the incense as it looks like you get 2f1h1c from it which is a weaker tile than cows, clams or fish but it might give worker something to do).

Too lazy to do the maths but it might be better to workboat the clam instead of the fish, you get worker out 3 turns later and you'll be down 1f compared to fish but you get AH 4 turns earlier and +2c/turn will get you to BW faster.

 

[madscientist]

Interesting point is that once the worker has pasturised the cows she'll have little to do until BW. (I'm not sure if its worth farming the incense as it looks like you get 2f1h1c from it which is a weaker tile than cows, clams or fish but it might give worker something to do).

Too lazy to do the maths but it might be better to workboat the clam instead of the fish, you get worker out 3 turns later and you'll be down 1f compared to fish but you get AH 4 turns earlier and +2c/turn will get you to BW faster.

I agree here. Workboat the clams first providing that fogged sea tile is not another seafood resource (probably unlikely).

 

[KingMorgan]

It would't be an ALC if there was not at least 3 pages of discussion before settling and at least one agrument about whether it's better to build a WB or WK first.

Also i'd want to see a page devoted to Ocean Fish v Coastal Clams

Glad to see this series continue, suspect working a Clam will be optimal.

 

[Sian]

IMO food is the most important thing early on ...

i'd say WB for fish first, then Worker for cows, followed by a 'slow' WB (while growing asap, ie. fish and at size two cow)

 

[Lord Parkin]

I think someone should do the math. It was said earlier you can get a boat in 10 turns. You will need 2 or 3 boats anyway. How many turns is it to be-line BW while working the clams and fish vs a worker build? It feels like it should work, you are trading growth turns for worker build turns and then cashing in on a worker in one shot when BW comes and then you can chop.

We don't need the exploratory Work Boats until much later though. The very first turns should always be devoted to getting maximum tile yield for the capital in minimum time. Pretty much anything else is secondary (except perhaps a defensive Warrior in multiplayer). So I doubt that waiting so long to build a Worker will be a good plan at all.

Interesting point is that once the worker has pasturised the cows she'll have little to do until BW. (I'm not sure if its worth farming the incense as it looks like you get 2f1h1c from it which is a weaker tile than cows, clams or fish but it might give worker something to do).

Better to have a bit of down-time on the Worker and to have the superb tiles hooked up really early, though. In a lot of my games I have Worker downtime early on (especially on Marathon speed), but it's usually worth getting those 1 or 2 tiles improved early on and having the Worker do nothing for a while than not having the tiles improved for longer.

Too lazy to do the maths but it might be better to workboat the clam instead of the fish, you get worker out 3 turns later and you'll be down 1f compared to fish but you get AH 4 turns earlier and +2c/turn will get you to BW faster.

Valid point for discussion. Is 1 food =, >, or < 2 commerce for this start in the very early game?

Personally I think good things can be said about both options, although my gut instinct is that with Financial, the coastal Clams may be slightly preferable to the ocean Fish. With a non-Financial civ I'd go for the Fish without a second thought.

I agree here. Workboat the clams first providing that fogged sea tile is not another seafood resource (probably unlikely).

If there is another seafood resource, it'd have to be a coastal Fish to change our plans. Otherwise, nothing changes either way for the first few turns.

It would't be an ALC if there was not at least 3 pages of discussion before settling and at least one agrument about whether it's better to build a WB or WK first.

Very true, I guess.

 

[Munch]

Interesting point is that once the worker has pasturised the cows she'll have little to do until BW. (I'm not sure if its worth farming the incense as it looks like you get 2f1h1c from it which is a weaker tile than cows, clams or fish but it might give worker something to do).

Would the small amount of worker actions available pre-BW be an argument in favour of building two workboats before the worker?

I.e.: work a forested hill to pump out a workboat; work the improved seafood (clams?) so you grow while building the second workboat; work both the improved seafood and the forested hill - or just two forested hills - to get the second boat out fast.

 

[Phatshady912]

Two workboats looks like the better choice, then a worker. Like you said, it is more important early game to always be working improved tiles, and the best way to do that is 2 workboats first.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Work boat first seems a no brainer to me.

I thought AH is getting the pre req bonus from agriculture and hunting...am I wrong?

If not getting hunting before AH, would give you a 20% bonus on AH which if you work clams first is 3 beackers per turn..and you get to be 1 tech from archery.

 

[huerfanista]

How about playing turn 1 now, since nobody has argued against settling in place? It will give us a bit more info about the surroundings and we can see what that hut has in store.

 

[Pindrus]

Valid point for discussion. Is 1 food =, >, or < 2 commerce for this start in the very early game?

Personally I think good things can be said about both options, although my gut instinct is that with Financial, the coastal Clams may be slightly preferable to the ocean Fish. With a non-Financial civ I'd go for the Fish without a second thought.

Seems to me that part of the fun of the ALC games was attempting to "leverage" a leader's unique traits/unit/building, even if it wasn't necessarily the dominant choice. So go for the clams!

It's probably not a bad idea anyway with the consensus forming around the AH->Mining->BW track. With so many resources already visible, I doubt that you will find a strategic resource in the BFC, so I would bet that you will then have to hurry Hunting->Archery unless you are comfortable fog-busting/escorting with warriors. Actually that might not be a bad idea, with such an early-game production monster as Amsterdam will be you should have no problem getting a barracks up and it won't be a big deal to sacrifice a few warriors to the RNGods.

You are also set up nicely for the GLH with such a -rich a sea-heavy capitol, which would also meld nicely with Willem's focus on founding seaside settlements.

 

[jamezzz6]

Assuming you settle in place, don't learn AH from the tribal village and there's nothing hidden in BFC you've got a couple of options assuming you research AH first.

Worker first: 23 turns for worker (90/4), 27 turns for AH (243/9).

WB first:12 turns for WB (45/4). If you work fish you get worker in 15 (90/6) (turn 27) and AH in turn 26. If you work clams you get worker in 18 (turn 30) and AH in turn 23.

Best balance (assuming I got the figures right) is WB>worker, work fish and get worker and AH in turn 27. Given that there's not much for the worker to do before AH WB>worker is clearly superior. You get a free workboat and can work the fish to grow to pop2 while worker is improving the cows.

As this is my first post I have no clue if the next thing I'm going to say is counted as 'wrong' so I'll put it in a spoiler. the only thing I did for it was settling.

Spoiler :

Your calculation for WB is correct, but there seems to be a strangeness in the research of AH, since it only takes 21 turns, not 27. It might be some strange effect I'm not aware of, so I'd like it to be explained

 

[uncarved block]

I would like to point out, for the newer players who might be following, that settling in place is not in one of the blue circle recommends-- in fact, the spot to the west has nothing of value (that we can see now) at all. Amusing, to say the least.

The question about the second WB seems like it will depend on whether there's any pre-Calendar happiness in the area. With all the food available in the capitol, the happy cap is the biggest headache in the foreseeable future, and sinking Hammers into something that will make it worse seems like a decision that can wait for more info. Unless the Barbs munch your Warrior by turn 12, there's not a lot of reason to lock that decision in right now.

The bigger long term question with Willem is whether or not to make a run at one of the two ocean based Wonders. GLH is almost overpowering on water heavy maps, but the AI seems to prioritize it more than Colossus, which makes it more of a gamble. Is it even worth it on Immortal? The payoff certainly seems worth the risk.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Work boat first seems a no brainer to me.

I thought AH is getting the pre req bonus from agriculture and hunting...am I wrong?

If not getting hunting before AH, would give you a 20% bonus on AH which if you work clams first is 3 beackers per turn..and you get to be 1 tech from archery.

Archery is almost never relevant on this map script though, at least not vs barbs.

If he needs camp resources he might want hunting eventually, but he might also want to spam warriors for HR happiness. IMO it's too early to go the hunting route, even moreso if it slows down his production at all.

 

[Fluxx]

Ok so asked for the calculations. I love calculations so I feel up for the job. It is clear workboat first is superior, the question is 2nd workboat or worker afterwards.

First of calculations for 2nd workboat.

1. Build Workboat, 12 turns (work plains hill with forest)
12. Build Workboat, go with workboat to fish (still work plains hill)
13. Swap from plains to fish
20. Pop 2, work cow tile plus fish tile, Finish AH, research Mining (11 turns)
23. Swap to plains hills instead of cows.
30 Pop 3, finish WB, build worker (10 turns) , work crab, fish, cow.
31. Mining finishes, research bronze(15 turns) worker (10 turns) , swap to lake, crab, fish
41. Worker finishes, Build Warrior, swap to cow tile, pasture it (5 turns BW)
46. BW done tech X
47. Pop 4, cow pastured, pasture next cow, work lake, crab, cow, fish.
48. Pop warrior, build warrior
52 .Pop Warrior, build warrior.
53. Cow pastured, swap to cow.
54. Pop 5 (2675 BC), work crab, cow, cow, lake, crab, fish. (yield of 7+6+6+5+6 = 30). Move worker to chop

Total tile usage/yield over 54 turns is 13 * 3 + 6 * 7 + 10 * 9 + 16 + 18 * 10, + 6 * 17 + 25 * 7 = 563 total yield.


Ok, now we dealt with that, move to WB, then worker.

1. Build WB, work plains hill.
12. Finish WB, work crab with boat, start worker(18).
19. finish AH, go mining (9)
28. finish mining go BW (20)
30. Finish worker, build wb, pasture cow
35 pasture next cow.
39 pop 2, work cow/crab
41. move worker to incest
42 WB done, build warrior, irri inc
43 work fish + crab
46 pop 3, swap to cow, cow, fish. Cancel irri move worker to forest.
48. BW finish swap to X, warrior finish, build warrior. Chop forest
51. Pop 4, work cow/cow/crab/fish. (total yield is 6 + 6 + 7 + 6 = 25)
52. Finish warri build settler
53 finish chop + 30
54. move worker to chop.

Total tile over 54 turns yield is 12 *3 + 27 * 7 + 7 * 13 + 18 *5 + 3 * 25 + 30 = 511 total yield.

WB, WB, worker wins with higher overall total yield, and more end yield after 54 turns.

 

[pigswill]

@Jamezzz6. Welcome to the forum .

Maybe I've got my base value for AH wrong and its not 243 beakers. I also assume that working forest hill gives no commerce, you get 1c from city square and 8c from palace iirc. 243/9 is surely 27. Maybe there's some clever discount in operation that I'm not including in my calcs coz I'm not very clever.