ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

[Loki Strikes]

I agree on workboat-workboat-worker... It really is best to improve seafood first 99% of the time, barring lots and lots of irrigated corn... even then...

 

[deathturnip]

Settling in place really seems like the only sensible move, all that remains is to determine what to do with the capital. 2 cows and 3 plains hills reeks of production, but it is mighty odd to have 4 food sources without making great people.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I thought AH is getting the pre req bonus from agriculture and hunting...am I wrong?

If not getting hunting before AH, would give you a 20% bonus on AH which if you work clams first is 3 beackers per turn..and you get to be 1 tech from archery.

Not quite a 20% bonus... it'd be the difference between a 140% and a 120% bonus (which is <20%). However, this could be worth considering.

Hunting first takes 10 turns and should shave 3 turns off Animal Husbandry (21->18). So that'd mean Animal Husbandry would be ready around turn 28. Animal Husbandry straight away takes around 21 turns, on the other hand. So, the question is when will the Worker be ready? The Work Boat will be ready on turn 12, and the Worker will take at least 16 more turns. In other words, if we build a Worker after the first Work Boat, it won't be ready until at least turn 28.

Remember that there is another factor though - if go for Animal Husbandry first and get it several turns before the Worker is built, there'll be less down-time for the Worker until Bronze Working (because we'll be able to start on Mining 7 turns earlier). Keep in mind an additional hidden factor too: getting Hunting first will mean that as soon as we get any source of metal, we won't be able to build Warriors (which are often useful for happiness in the inner cities, especially after Monarchy).

How about playing turn 1 now, since nobody has argued against settling in place? It will give us a bit more info about the surroundings and we can see what that hut has in store.

Agreed. I'll do that next.

As this is my first post I have no clue if the next thing I'm going to say is counted as 'wrong' so I'll put it in a spoiler. the only thing I did for it was settling.

Spoiler :

Your calculation for WB is correct, but there seems to be a strangeness in the research of AH, since it only takes 21 turns, not 27. It might be some strange effect I'm not aware of, so I'd like it to be explained

It could be because Pigswill researched Hunting before Animal Husbandry. Alternatively, it could be that he created a test map (rather than using the savegame file), and forgot to get the settings right. Tech costs are increased on larger maps, and increased on higher difficulties - so if Pigswill accidentally set the wrong difficulty or a huge map, his turns to Animal Husbandry would be different.

The bigger long term question with Willem is whether or not to make a run at one of the two ocean based Wonders. GLH is almost overpowering on water heavy maps, but the AI seems to prioritize it more than Colossus, which makes it more of a gamble. Is it even worth it on Immortal? The payoff certainly seems worth the risk.

I think it'll definitely be worth us shooting for the Great Lighthouse, as it's a pretty powerful wonder on this type of map. We have plenty of forests to chop, so I think we stand a fairly good chance of getting it. We'll need to prioritise Sailing and Masonry in the near future to get it, though.

One question though, I think it was asked - is it better to let cultural borders pop the hut? Since its two border pops away I wouldn't normally bother but with WvO's creative trait its not going to take too long.

That's a fair point. If the Warrior was not directly next to the hut, we might be able to leave it to the cultural borders (although on Epic speed, that'd take 38 turns - long enough for a rival Scout or Warrior to find it first if they started on our continent). However, since the Warrior probably would have wanted to head in that direction first anyway, it makes sense to grab the hut while we're at it.

I'm a old player returning, a bit rusty and still trying to get out of old habits (and improve at monarch level) so will be following this closely (and hopefully posting often), thanks for continuing from Sisiutil.

No problem.

1. I don't do the maths, just going on intuition so will leave the specifics for others. My main point/question is what do you want to do the with forests? I'd personally look to save them for chopping for Colossus+Great Lighthouse if its a viable strategy for this level?

Yep, exactly my thoughts.

another edit. Comparing WB>WB to WB>worker: by turn 54 WB>WB generates +49C -35H compared to WB>worker.

Thanks, good to know. Did you test this with the savegame, or with a test game? Did the first Work Boat get the Clams or the Fish?

Thank you for bringing back this series.

No worries!

 

[Fluxx]

Thanks, good to know. Did you test this with the savegame, or with a test game? Did the first Work Boat get the Clams or the Fish?

So much Math work and LP didnt see my post

*snif

 

[Matthew5117]

Damn. It's only been a day and there's already 4 pages of discussion.

Imagine how long the thread's going to be once its finished?

 

[Lord Parkin]

First Moves: 4000 BC

We decide to settle in place, due to the superb starting location. We'd miss out on at least one of the resources if we moved, so it wasn't worth bothering. Our Warrior moved NW and popped the hut. We got 58 gold - not bad, although not the tech that some of us might have been hoping for.

We started building a Work Boat first, since it was generally agreed in the thread that for a leader that starts with Fishing, a Work Boat first is preferable to a Worker first with this starting position. Note that we are working the 3 hammer plains-hill-forest to get the Work Boat out in the minimum amount of turns. Although this means that we will not be growing at all while building the Work Boat, the lost food is actually made up very quickly since we'll have either a Clam or Fish tile hooked up extremely early on.



The main points for contention before I play the first round are:

• Hunting first or Animal Husbandry first? Hunting first will take 10 turns, followed by 18 turns on Animal Husbandry (total 28 turns). Animal Husbandry first will take about 21 turns, so will allow us to start Mining and Bronze Working about 7 turns earlier. (There's also the fact that by skipping Hunting, we can build Warriors even after we hook up a metal source, which is very useful once we reach Monarchy.) Personally, I'm thinking that AH first will be best, but what do you think?
• First Work Boat to the Clams or to the Fish? The Clams give 1 less but 2 more , while the Fish gives 1 more but 2 less . It's a tricky one. Personally my hunch is that the Clams will be preferable to reduce the down-time for the Worker (by speeding up Mining and Bronze Working), but what do you think?
• After the first Work Boat, do we go for another Work Boat or a Worker? There are arguments either way for this one. I believe going for the Worker nets us slightly more hammers, and the Work Boat nets us slightly more commerce in the same amount of time. My opinion is that we should build a Worker after the first Work Boat... but what do you think?

Looking forward to the discussion. I'll play the first round sometime in the next day or so.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Sorry Fluxx - I didn't miss reading your post, I just missed replying to it. Selecting multiple quotes sometimes screws things up a bit, I think.

Ok so asked for the calculations. I love calculations so I feel up for the job. It is clear workboat first is superior, the question is 2nd workboat or worker afterwards.

First of calculations for 2nd workboat.

1. Build Workboat, 12 turns (work plains hill with forest)
12. Build Workboat, go with workboat to fish (still work plains hill)
13. Swap from plains to fish
20. Pop 2, work cow tile plus fish tile, Finish AH, research Mining (11 turns)
23. Swap to plains hills instead of cows.
30 Pop 3, finish WB, build worker (10 turns) , work crab, fish, cow.
31. Mining finishes, research bronze(15 turns) worker (10 turns) , swap to lake, crab, fish
41. Worker finishes, Build Warrior, swap to cow tile, pasture it (5 turns BW)
46. BW done tech X
47. Pop 4, cow pastured, pasture next cow, work lake, crab, cow, fish.
48. Pop warrior, build warrior
52 .Pop Warrior, build warrior.
53. Cow pastured, swap to cow.
54. Pop 5 (2675 BC), work crab, cow, cow, lake, crab, fish. (yield of 7+6+6+5+6 = 30). Move worker to chop

Total tile usage/yield over 54 turns is 13 * 3 + 6 * 7 + 10 * 9 + 16 + 18 * 10, + 6 * 17 + 25 * 7 = 563 total yield.


Ok, now we dealt with that, move to WB, then worker.

1. Build WB, work plains hill.
12. Finish WB, work crab with boat, start worker(18).
19. finish AH, go mining (9)
28. finish mining go BW (20)
30. Finish worker, build wb, pasture cow
35 pasture next cow.
39 pop 2, work cow/crab
41. move worker to incest
42 WB done, build warrior, irri inc
43 work fish + crab
46 pop 3, swap to cow, cow, fish. Cancel irri move worker to forest.
48. BW finish swap to X, warrior finish, build warrior. Chop forest
51. Pop 4, work cow/cow/crab/fish. (total yield is 6 + 6 + 7 + 6 = 25)
52. Finish warri build settler
53 finish chop + 30
54. move worker to chop.

Total tile over 54 turns yield is 12 *3 + 27 * 7 + 7 * 13 + 18 *5 + 3 * 25 + 30 = 511 total yield.

WB, WB, worker wins with higher overall total yield, and more end yield after 54 turns.

This is great work, thanks.

What do you mean by "total yield" though? Hammers + Commerce? Food + Hammers + Commerce? I think it's more important to break it up into the three rather than doing an overall "total yield", since all things are not equal - eg 1 often isn't worth as much as 1 or 1 in the very early game. If you have the time, it'd be great if you could check out the other version of option 2 as well - that is, if the first Work Boat goes to the Fish instead of the Clams.

Still, awesome job though. Keep it up!

 

[Matthew5117]

I have a good feeling you'll have metals (look at all those empty fields!). This reduces the need for Archers which is provided with Archery and before Hunting. Sure scouts have a movement of 2, but they can't attack and they suck at defending once barbs come around (meaning they're no good at fogbusting). Warriors are the way to go.

The verdict: Animal Husbandry

Besides, these cheap warriors can give happiness when Monarchy comes around like you said!

Clams or fish? Boy, this is tricky. One of the things I see is that you'll be losing your advantage from your trait if you work the fish. Besides, once your worker's finished pasturing the cows, what are they going to do? Clams seem the better option.

The verdict: Clams

Going work boat first allows a quicker build time of the worker, as opposed to the other way around which doesn't help as much because your worker has to improve first. On the other hand, getting those two cow pastures seem so tempting! And those plain hills!

The verdict: Don't care. Either way.

 

[Fluxx]

Sorry Fluxx - I didn't miss reading your post, I just missed replying to it. Selecting multiple quotes sometimes screws things up a bit, I think.

No problem mate, you renewing the ALC thread is enough for me

If you have the time, it'd be great if you could check out the other version of option 2 as well - that is, if the first Work Boat goes to the Fish instead of the Clams.

I did a quick calc on the fish variation. The problem is you will end up with 16 idle worker turns,
You can work the lake instead of the pasture at turn 2, but then it will be about 12 idle worker turns and no hammers.
Didnt calc it all through though, but in the end the idle turns didnt seem to pay off imho.
I will try to make the total yield calc tomorrow, going to bed now though since I live in Europe. Cheers

 

[Kaosprophet]

First Work Boat to the Clams or to the Fish?[/b] The Clams give 1 less but 2 more , while the Fish gives 1 more but 2 less . It's a tricky one. Personally my hunch is that the Clams will be preferable to reduce the down-time for the Worker (by speeding up Mining and Bronze Working), but what do you think?

I tend towards the clams first, both because of the extra commerce and because it hooks up in one turn rather than two.

And I don't know if it's the 'right' move, but I would probably do the worker second, so he can get building the land and thus help get the second workboat out faster.

 

[Sisiutil]

Clams and AH.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

No math calculations needed! As someone already said, part of the point of the ALC isn't necessarily "optimal" play, but to showcase the leaders and their specialties. That is one of the things that sets this series apart from others. Hence, clams over fish, so you can start leveraging that financial trait earlier! Besides that, I actually think that IS the optimal play, because of the idle worker turns you'll get. You need that commerce.

I think worker 2nd over another workboat is probably the right move. Those cows will be spitting out workboats, for the fish and exploration.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I concur with the 2 work boats 1st. Food is power early on. Not needing to build a farm to gain food, you have a boot to your worker production at higher pop levels. The extra commerce that comes with using the clams/fish will boost research.

only if you have gold/gems/silver in BFC can research be boosted more. Delaying worker till size 2/3 helps HERE.

Seafood is easy to maintain, cheap to harvest and boosts research.

Note, Think long term in making an Isthmus cities linked with 2 forts, between Amsterdam and the Ocean to the North, that's if your continent spreads out enough to warrant that link.

 

[dirtyparrot]

No math calculations needed! As someone already said, part of the point of the ALC isn't necessarily "optimal" play, but to showcase the leaders and their specialties. That is one of the things that sets this series apart from others.

I don't agree. The point of this series is to develop the necessary skills to attempt to reach the optimal level. Ultimately, most of us will go based on a judgement call rather than nitty-gritty math calculations, but it's sure nice to be able to do it if needed (or desired). That will help to determine the optimal play so that next time you know right away the best course of action. In essence, the analogy that it's better to dress too warm than too cold imo applies here.

 

[Trystero]

I vote for clams (Financial) and AH > Mining > BW. I would have built a Worker after the initial WB, but Fluxx's analysis convinces me a second WB is better.

 

[bobbyboy29]

Clams, Fish, techpaths, build orders: none of that really matters to me, 3 letters will win you this game, GLH. 'nuff said

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I don't agree. The point of this series is to develop the necessary skills to attempt to reach the optimal level. Ultimately, most of us will go based on a judgement call rather than nitty-gritty math calculations, but it's sure nice to be able to do it if needed (or desired). That will help to determine the optimal play so that next time you know right away the best course of action. In essence, the analogy that it's better to dress too warm than too cold imo applies here.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, since everyone wants to ultimately get better, but Sis said MANY times that the goal was to showcase all the leaders and their traits (hence the ALL leader challenge)....I think maybe the Isabella game he even took the "suboptimal" techpath on purpose just to get the UB to beef up his siege units, although it's been awhile since I read that one.

And there were a couple of games where REXING made more sense, but he was agg so he rushed anyhow. Still, this baby is Lord Parkin's for now, so things will inevitably be different.

 

[Sisiutil]

One warning about relying on seafood to feed your cities: as of the latest patch, barb galleys appear very early. Just one more reason why Sailing (for defensive galleys) should be an early priority tech.

 

[raxid]

Clams and AH.

One warning about relying on seafood to feed your cities: as of the latest patch, barb galleys appear very early. Just one more reason why Sailing (for defensive galleys) should be an early priority tech.

I see how it is Sis, all this talk about not having time and this "real life" thing u keep talking about. In reality you just wanted to be the person to tell some one else what to do for a change... i got my eyes on u sir!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

One warning about relying on seafood to feed your cities: as of the latest patch, barb galleys appear very early. Just one more reason why Sailing (for defensive galleys) should be an early priority tech.

Probably necessary on archipelago, but let me point something out:

Barb galleys can only "see" 7 tiles into culture borders. If seafood is 8 or more tiles from the border, the barb galley will not enter to pillage it (unless it's chasing a work boat from the AI, but you could always close borders I guess).

I've had isolated starts where I never built any galleys, and got 0 seafood pillaged on this difficulty. Works well sometimes but due to the nature of archipelago and the preponderance of coastal seafood probably doable.

As for build order, I didn't realize we had a lot of idle worker turns going worker after fish. In that case, probably dual work-boats with fish improved first is best?