ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[vormuir]

I glanced quickly at your saved game. Two micro-tips:

1) Why are you building a granary in Thebes? You don't need the health, and you can't get the growth. Switch to a worker, a settler, or research. (Switch back within 10 turns, and you won't lose any hammers.)

2) Once you get Fishing, go to Barcelona and crank out a couple of work boats.


Waldo

 

[Fetch]

@vormuir- Brilliant!
@Sisiutil- this word from vormuir is the best advice you'll get. If you can raze a small startup city you can also get some $ for your treasury.

And like he said, you know you want to.

 

[vormuir]

3) Use that southernmost WC (the one on the icecap), plus a unit from Madrid, to explore the English empire.

4) Consider sending a WC or two to sniff around for barb cities.


Waldo

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd have to say Vormuirs course sounds better, instead of attempting to out expand Vicky, Shut her down

1. keep/Build some WCs near your settled regions for Barbarian Defence (and Capture of well placed Barb cities), scout out Vicky for Spear Levels.

2. If Spear Levels are low, send the remainder of your army for English Harrassment... first goal=cut metal, second goal=pillage everything else, third=raze cities

3. Back at home... found Gold City (and maybe Marble City) and Cottage Spam [although more emphasis should be on getting Gold/Gem Mines..I'd put all the Workers into that now].. that should get you back on track soon enough.

4. Once you are positive again, get CoL and then Construction and shift back to expansion (and elimination of Vicky)

You will probably end up having to reconquer the Continent from Barbarians, but that shouldn't be too hard (they won't have the 60% defense cities)

 

[vormuir]

Okay. I played a little bit of Sisiutl's saved game.

I don't know how to set up a spoiler extension (can someone tell me?), so let me try rot-13. (Sis, you better not be one of those freaks who can sight-read this stuff.) To translate, go to rot3.com, cut and paste.


Svefg, gur onq arjf. Ivpxl unf gjb fcrne va bar bs ure pvgvrf, cyhf n guveq va ure pncvgny. Fcrnef zhapu jne punevbgf, fb gung'f abg tbbq. Gur vainfvba sbepr jvyy unir gb vapyhqr zrgny. Sbeghangryl, Fvfvhgy unf n srj nkrzra unatvat nebhaq... ohg vg zrnaf ur'yy unir gb ohyx hc uvf vainfvba sbepr sebz ~4 havgf gb ~6. Nyfb, ur'yy cebonoyl unir gb ohvyq n havg be gjb, fvapr JPf nybar jvyy abg ubyq bss oneonevna nkrzra sberire.

Zber onq arjf: Ivpxl unf n Fgnpx bs Qbbz jnaqrevat nebhaq ure rzcver... yvxr, guerr be sbhe Nkrzra naq na nepure. Pregnvayl abg haorngnoyr, rfcrpvnyyl vs gur JPf pngpu vg ba bcra tebhaq. Ohg vs fur fraqf vg abegu gb nggnpx Inaqny, Fvf pbhyq unir n erny ceboyrz.

Fb, jne jvgu Ivpxl, abg fb fvzcyr.

Ba gur bgure unaq: Ivpxl'f rzcver vf va tbbq funcr naq ernql gb rkcnaq. Va 20-30 gheaf fur'yy unir gjb arj pvgvrf, vapyhqvat bar gung jvyy geniry ol tnyyrl hc gur pbnfg gb n cnegvphyneyl naablvat ybpngvba. Ure grpu yrnq vf abg tbvat gb qvfnccrne, rvgure. Fb vs Fvf qbrfa'g nggnpx ure, fur'yy rzretr nf n frevbhf eviny. V qnerfnl ur pna gnxr ure bhg jvgu n zrqvriny jne va 100 gheaf be fb, ohg vg'yy or n unffyr.

V'q fgvyy fnl tb gb jne. Ohg vg'f tbvat gb or gevpxl.


Jnyqb

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

You're in a bit of a rut economically, and your army is comprised of war chariots. Unfortunately, Vicky probably has metal. Which means she probably has spearmen. You probably cannot take her out with WCs alone at this point. It seems to me you went a little too strong on the warmongering(I would know...I usually don't go hard enough!), and you're going to need more conventional arms to help with Vicky. You may wish to try and weaken her, but I don't think you can feasibly defeat her. Unless, of course, you raze all her cities, but then you'd have major barb problems and most your army dead from spearmen. That's not to say your war chariots are worthless. They fit beautifully into the combined arms approach, becoming instead flankers to soften scary defenders, pillagers to impoverish the enemy, and locusts to devour any unit foolish enough to stray into flat land. At this point...you should focus on getting your research up a little. Your economy likely wouldn't survive a war at this point, and Hattie really doesn't have much to offer as help. Stay nice with Vicky(for now!). Try to get a Great Prophet by turning on priests SOMEWHERE.
Get to CoL, get courthouses up, by then the cottages have become stronger, and the economy is good. Go for Sailing, as it may help enough to matter, and then start thinking about Vicky. You'll need some serious fogbusters in the meantime, and WCs can help this by patrolling the fog, hunting down barb cities, and generally keeping them from bothering your cities. You'll probably want to settle a few cities as well, particularly the double-gold site. That city'll pay for itself the moment it starts working one of those gold mines, and will revitalize your tech rate with two.

So, in short....wait on war. Settle and improve the gold site. Improve Vandal. Spam them cottages. Slog to CoL, after that, build courthouses like it's going out of style, maybe slap the FP somewhere(Madrid?), get a few economy boosting techs(like Sailing), have any city you wish utilize a priest specialist for a GP and that yummy shrine income, and THEN stick Vicky's fat head on a pole.....hehehe...not too different from what everyone else said. Remember, you have quite a bit of time before the AI shows up with Galleons brimming with Settlers bound for icebound cities! Hopefully there isn't some island paradise out there with Gandhi, Mansa Musa, and Cyrus, all sharing a religion, tech-trading every turn, and never going to war ever....

 

[Araqiel]

I have to concur with whats already been said. Found the gold city asap for a quick commerce boost. Then use your workers to cottage where it can. Get a priest in Madrid when you can to get a shrine built. Spread some WCs to suppress the barbs.

Then send your remaining WCs into Lizzy's land as others have suggested and pillage as much as you can. You'll make money and keep her under wraps as you dig yourself out of a hole. Peace gains you nothing. At the very least pillaging income will pay the extra costs and hurt the English. Just don't expect to be able to crack any cities.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sounds like good advice, and pretty much what I was planning to do, though I like the idea of crippling Vicky's economy rather than trying to take her cities at great cost. In fact, that's a fallback to what was supposed to be the original strategy--except the WCs proved very adept at capturing Rome's and Spain's lightly-defended cities. One WC will be dispatched to sniff around English territory post-haste before making any final decisions.

Yes, Alphabet WAS a mistake. Lesson learned.

A bigger lesson learned here, though, is the cost of an early-early war. Usually I build up infrastructure and economy first, then go to war. Unit maintenance costs are covered by ratcheting the research slider down a notch or two. I think the unstrategic civilian builds currently going on in my cities is evidence of creeping panic on my part. That's why it's helpful to stop the game for awhile and take a breather.

This time is the first time I did an early war the other way around: ramp up to war first, build infrastructure/economy second. It makes it clear to me that this sort of warmongering requires coupling with an early financial strategy. There are two options I can think of for that, which could conceivably be implemented in concert:

1. While other cities pump out units, devote one to building the Stonehenge and Oracle. Grab a religion (CoL -> Confucianism most likely) with the Oracle, build a shrine with the Great Prophet.
2. Make Pottery an early research priority, capture more Workers, and have them build cottages, even before some resource tiles are improved.

If anyone has any refinements or other suggestions along those lines, feel free. I thought I should verbalize those strategies because if I keep doing these ALC games, I'll come across some other early UUs (Incan Quechas and Persian Immortals come to mind) which will likely also result in very early warmongering. Next time, I want to get it right.

So once again, I have dug myself into a hole and have to find a way out of it. One good thing about posting these games is they keep me honest. Come on, how many of you in this situation would be tempted to quit, or go back to a previous save, in these circumstances? I know I would be. Or perhaps not; I'm beginning to find I enjoy the challenge of recovering from my own stupidity. Civ parallels real life in that regard.

 

[Araqiel]

Both of your strategies to avoid a post conquest economic crash are valid, and necessary. I've found that the most important thing to remember in early warmongering is to beeline for code of laws after you get necessary worker techs and ironworking (as well as any others needed for your UU perhaps).

Your current situation isn't dire by any means though. You have 3 times the land any AI rival is likely to have, and have a powerfully promoted military. When you elminate Elizabeth you'll have a crushing advantage in land which I'm confidant you can easily convert into the victory of your choice (except cultural probably).

 

[Sisiutil]

Both of your strategies to avoid a post conquest economic crash are valid, and necessary. I've found that the most important thing to remember in early warmongering is to beeline for code of laws after you get necessary worker techs and ironworking (as well as any others needed for your UU perhaps).

You'd think I would have remembered that, seeing how fond I am of playing as Rome, where CoL and courthouses are a critical part of the overall strategy.

Your current situation isn't dire by any means though. You have 3 times the land any AI rival is likely to have, and have a powerfully promoted military. When you elminate Elizabeth you'll have a crushing advantage in land which I'm confidant you can easily convert into the victory of your choice (except cultural probably).

Quite true. The power graph, which I haven't posted, is ridiculous; if it reflected promotions (apparently it does not), it would be even more so. All those WCs under 10 XPs are going barb-hunting to get up to Level 4. Killing those annoying barbs is going to be most satisfying. As will pillaging Vicky back into the stone age, yes, vormuir.

And I'm not ruling out a cultural victory, or any other, at this point. The other civs seem a little slow off the mark to me, not that I expect that to last.

 

[Araqiel]

Believe me I've made similar errors many times. I eventually trained myself to fight early wars better after several painful prince games as Kublai Khan.

Took a failure in a game to learn each lesson a conqueror needs.

1. Raze piddly AIs cities
2. Get Code of Laws
3. Have at least one city cottaging very early (unless you have lots of gold/gems but still a good idea even then)

I'm still much more comfortable building until the medieval era and then using Maces and Catapults to vault ahead of the pack score wise.

I suppose you could go cultural, I just don't see why you would when you have a whole large continent under your thumb. Cultural victories are really rather boring even when you have neighbors who could threaten you. With oceans as your borders even that wouldn't spice up the game.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

There are two options I can think of for that, which could conceivably be implemented in concert:

1. While other cities pump out units, devote one to building the Stonehenge and Oracle. Grab a religion (CoL -> Confucianism most likely) with the Oracle, build a shrine with the Great Prophet.
2. Make Pottery an early research priority, capture more Workers, and have them build cottages, even before some resource tiles are improved.

Along the same lines as #2, you could have prioritized commerce more when selecting the location of city #3. That's when you built next to copper, which may not have been that important. As Hans keeps pointing out, your war chariots are as good as axemen but with extra movement. Having some city raider swordsmen might prove useful soon, but you could certainly have fought both of your first wars without metal if it had come down to that. Founding double gold or Vandal earlier might have helped.

 

[uncarved block]

Yep, Sisiutil, when Soren said he wanted to kill REX as much as possible, he meant early war REX too. I've run into the same problem over and over again, as I go after the AI before the city defenses get too numerous. The early diplomatic penalties can be a killer too, especially if you play on contiguous maps of the kind I prefer, as that extra "-1 You declared war on our friend" penalty can push a belligerent leader like Alex over the edge to war when you don't need one.

One thing you might try is building a Galley and finding out if that continent really does run from pole to pole, as it appears it does. If nothing else, they're untouchable fog busters (I haven't seen a Barb Galley after any of the patches. The problem is that the only port city I can see is Barcelona, and you might not be able to afford the 50 hammers gambling that you'll be able to get around the other side and contact another civ to rescue researching Alphabet. Having an invulnerable fog buster might still justify the cost, though, especially as Tundra seems to spawn more Barbs.

Yes, your economy is shot, but on the plus side, you have nowhere to go but up. You haven't shown a power comparison lately-- is Lizzy any kind of a threat? If you've doubled her up in power (and since she's the only civ you know about, the Demographic page should give you good figures), the early pillaging campaign sounds like a good strat. If she's close, though, the problem will be that she'll concentrate on building units after you declare war, and with the way your economy is going, you won't be able to out-tech her on the battlefield for a while-- and if she beats you to Macemen, things could get very, very ugly. OTOH, if you're the only enemy in sight, she may attack you anyway, and it will be better to fight on your terms, and on your schedule.

Empty thoughts from an empty season, perhaps, but thought I'd throw out the Galley suggestion to hear the reaction.

 

[pigswill]

Haven't had time to continue a shadow and your game looks more interesting. I could say 'told you so' but that wouldn't be helpful. You want to keep Madrid but Barcelona is expendable in the short term (let the Barbs have it? Gift it to Vicky?). Gold and gems give you instant commerce hit, cottages are more long term. Build oracle before stonehenge. Let Barb cities grow a bit so you can pillage them for more. Tech-wise still CoL via oracle. Is it worth looking at early calendar for plantations?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Empty thoughts from an empty season, perhaps, but thought I'd throw out the Galley suggestion to hear the reaction.

For exploration, a Workboat beats a Galley on two counts
1. Cheaper hammers (50 Galley, 30 Workboat)
2. Cheaper Flasks (Sailing required for Galley, Fishing for Workboat)

Otherwise not a bad idea, with slavery, Barcelona could pretty easily get the Workboats needed to start growing and explore the continent. (the first two giving the food for whipping the exploring one... or two)

Tech-wise still CoL via oracle.

Actually Oracle's Gone... although a Prophet Can get CoL if Polytheism has been discovered and Masonry Hasn't... however that will take ~34 turns After Priesthood has been discovered (running one Priest)... enough time to get CoL normally. assuming you can make ~10 Flasks.

BTW your Total cost to get CoL is about 540 Flasks (this will be altered downward somewhat because of bonuses for other civs knowing the techs and prerequisite bonuses and upward slightly for the higher difficulty level)... once you get the Gold and Gems going, then get the Cottages, and you could probably be making a good surplus sayt 30 Flasks once the Cottages are going... so I'd say that given an initial 10-15 turns or so for Getting the Gold City, you should be able to get CoL within the next 40 turns from now. Then just keep expanding while Vicky is reduced to cowering defenders... and then Finish her off with Elephants.

Actually a few thoughts on units she may have v. your WCs in her cities, assume Capital is 60% rest are 20%, and no Hills

Archer
Cap: 3+75%+60%=3+135%=7.05
Other: 5.85

CG archer
Cap: 7.65
Other: 6.45

Spearmen
Cap: 4+125% +60% =4+185%=11.4
Other: 9.8

Axemen
Cap: 5+25%+60%=5+85%=9.25
Other: 7.25

Definitely not what ytou want to attack until Elephants/Catapults.. which make it all OK.

A few factors, once you are actually positive (ie +gold with 10% Research, then remember to build Monasteries after Libraries... nowhere will probably have 10 Science Monastery First), but many places could end up with 4 (Library First)... and a combo of the two gives a boost to 3 Flasks)



One other issue, CoL may not be the cure all either, It will be necessary, but you probably want to start expanding more as soon as you are Positive... assuming you can keep up development wise

Any city that has a good number of Jungle Free flat rivers or a Food Bonus plus Water tiles would be worthwhile. (Nova Roma, IronClams and Fish might all Work)


As for Victories... you can probably get at least 2 more religions on this Continent (assuming you lose Christianity and Confucianism you can probably get Islam and Taoism) that should allow for a good cultural Victory.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

So once again, I have dug myself into a hole and have to find a way out of it. One good thing about posting these games is they keep me honest. Come on, how many of you in this situation would be tempted to quit, or go back to a previous save, in these circumstances? I know I would be.

Are you kidding? You've got a winning position, why on earth would you want to unload it?

Possible answer: you don't think the rebuilding period you are looking at is much fun. OK, I'll buy that. I think you are kidding yourself that this position doesn't cruise. Maybe I'll try it for myself - its possible that I'm wildly optimistic here.

Yes, your economy is in the tank right now. Vandal is about to grow to size two. I would probably let it stagnate there, working the two luxury mines while (which by itself is a 33% boost to your economy). Later when you have other horses to pull the load, you can take somebody off the goldmine and try to grow that city. (Note: the proper order of your priorities there is: mine the gold, road the gold, connect the city, connect the ivory, mine the gems - roading the bananas is way way down the list).

Get your cottages built in the cities where they are most useful first (ie, those places that have a library). Goldville will pay for itself pretty quickly - if you have the workers on hand to mine the gold immediately.

Or go stomp on vicky for a while, if you like. But check the demographics - you are way behind someone in GNP right now, and it isn't Vicky.

 

[pigswill]

Sneaky and dishonourable option. If you're planning on pillaging war against Vicky then first give her Barcelona and gold to try to improve her disposition to get some tech-trading (it may be ok to trade alphabet if she's got no-one else to trade with). Then capture Barcelona back (will you get pillage?) as first act of war, either keep or raze.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Sneaky and dishonourable option. If you're planning on pillaging war against Vicky then first give her Barcelona and gold to try to improve her disposition to get some tech-trading (it may be ok to trade alphabet if she's got no-one else to trade with). Then capture Barcelona back (will you get pillage?) as first act of war, either keep or raze.

1. He can't give gold, and the AI may not take Barcelona

2. Barcelona is a probably profitable city.

But if you can get some techs for Barcelona and Alphabet, go ahead.


One final Idea, In cities that don't have much to build, Build Research... its terribly inefficient, but if you can't get anything else useful there.. go ahead.

 

[pigswill]

Quick clarification: gold resource (if get NE gold city and Vicky has none)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Quick clarification: gold resource (if get NE gold city and Vicky has none)

Good point, gifting resources may be a good idea (any non strategic resource he has multiple of would work....) probably do that now to help build up happiness.