ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

Pete2006 said:
Swords with CR promotions will take cities much better than elephants. I usually use elephants and most other mounted units as escorts and leave one behind with an axe to protect a newly conquered city.

when there is 1 axeman in a city, your swords have a really hard time, it's happening here
+he already has loads of swords, if i see well ;)

I must say i have much better results with elephants than with swords, but it's also because when you have elephants you also have catapults...
the catapults get CR, the elephant get varied promotions (combat/medic/march, combat I,II,III, combat/shock, ...)

an elephant right out of the barrack is combat 1 (that's sure)
let's say you face a CG II archer

combat 1 jumbo is 8.8 vs 3( 1+50% city+45%CGII) =5,95 so A/D = 1,48
CR1 sword is 6 vs 3(1+50%city+45%CGII-20%CR1-10% sword vs city) = 4,95 so A/D = 1,21
Of course, the sword is cheaper, but i must say the jumbo has much better odds!

Of course, higher level is different

combat 2 jumbo is 1,61 times stronger than the archer
CR 2 sword is 1,42...

combat 3 jumbo is 1,75
CR3 sword is 2:blush:

It gets good for the sword only after level 4:eek: . In the meantime, my elephant did a nasty job, while the sword has died :lol:
 
Ok, played a couple turns shadow game, got lucky taking susa, lost one unit, swinged south while building more swords/catapults. Killed himm, but took heavy losses because of those pesky horse archers he sent towads frankfurt. I suggest - either a) get a lot of spear/war elephents(depending if you want to split stacks and attk from frankfurt too or not) and defend/premptive there. You may not get attked in your game, but the cities there are all too tasty a treat for the AI, and relativly lightly defended, while your stack is on the other side of the map. choice b) is to screw the original plan, and go for tarsus.

pros-
no more pillaging horse/chariot
You know what they are going to build(see below)
Don't have to move units all the way back up to deal with last city
Tarkus is probably lightly defended
cons-
They are going to build axe instead(and archers, because copper is only strategic recource they have)
More time at war away from major cities

My suggestion, build 2 stacks, the current one hits the northern cities, then swings south. The one you build reinforces frankfurt and hits arbela, then turns NW
 
Well, the problem is, the exact same tiles that would be good for a super science city would be good for a super wealth city

not true. super wealth you want lots of grasslands, preferably with lots of river tiles. super science you want lots of 4+ food spots (floodplains, food resources, etc.) and some decent production (for science buildings).

@ sisiutil: sorry it took me so long to weigh in. don't worry though, you had some great advice and the game is going smoothly. when i play i usually prefer to build the pyramids and use the GE on parthenon, but the oracle build is good. one thing some critics of it are overlooking is that it nabs you the pyramids and also DENIES an ai civ the benefits of the oracle! it also gives you a high-priced tech that you can trade instead of alphabet, denying the ai tech-trading for as long as possible.

here's what i would recommend going forward in your game:

1) try and capture as many cities as possible. don't delay CoL and get down courthouses and forbidden palace to handle maintenance. consider moving your capital, as others have suggested. use your capital for your super-wealth city (try and pick a high-grasslands area, preferably with a river running through it).

2) in ALL of your cities, you want to try and have at least one 4+ food spot, preferably 2. if you have 2, then you can use the whip fairly frequently and use the 2 food tiles to run your pair of scientists. if you only have 1, then i would suggest stagnating at the happiness limit for your 2nd scientist and avoid the whip here.

3) in classical prioritize: lit for GL, then construction for dealing with your creative neighbours, then CoL for maintenance costs. i usually trade for iron and math (you can count on monty to have at least one of these).

4) in medieval priortize: music. why? the GA will nab you nationalism after you research divine right meaning you can use liberalism on military tradition for cavalry. then use cavalry to cruise to a domination victory. after music, i would prioritize CS and Machinery for obvious reasons. theology and feudalism as well, also for obvious reasons. maybe one that is not so obvious is divine right. if you can get there first, i'd recommend building versailles to also help with maintenance.

5) Hold off on caste system until banking so that you can ensure all of your cities will have at least 3 scientists (no guarantee you'll have the food to support them prior to this).

6) I would suggest forgetting about research post-liberalism and astronomy, as others have suggested to me on these forums. Using liberalism to get military tradition and astronomy for galleons, this is all you need for an early domination victory. And you should have an early tech lead thanks to the specialist econ ensuring that you'll be facing only medeival units with your powerful and fast-moving cavalry.

I'll probably have more to add later, but I think this should help :)
 
Originally Posted by William III
Question: Why do you need hammers in science cities? Is it not much more practical to that occasional building(at the moment you need only Lib. and Granary in Science cities; later add Monastery, Uni., etc.)? You only need 2 buildings/science city at the moment, so why bother getting up production???


William III

when you switch to caste system, needed for a SE, you don't have slavery anymore

Yes, when you switch to caste system. As futurehermit pointed out here:

5) Hold off on caste system until banking so that you can ensure all of your cities will have at least 3 scientists (no guarantee you'll have the food to support them prior to this).

You'll have to be able to support 3 scientist in most of your cities to make it worthwhile. If you can support 3 scientists, you've got enough food and growth to have whipped that library and granary long ago, don't worry. Besides, if you go on a conquest tour, which is not unlikely, the cost of caste system is definitely against it, and you'll want to wait for the war to be over and courthouses to be built; and the AI's cities will have enough hammers. That leaves at least 20 years for whipping: Really, I would concentrate on food, and food alone in my science cities.
 
I'm sorry it's taking so long to get the next round posted. I keep coming home from work only to discover all these errands requiring my attention. :sad:

Thanks to everyone for the excellent discussion and advice. As Stan the Man would say, Excelsior! (whatever the heck that means). I will do my best to get the next round played and posted ASAP.
 
The shades of night were falling fast,
As through an Alpine village passed
A youth, who bore, 'mid snow and ice,
A banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!

His brow was sad; his eye beneath,
Flashed like a falchion from its sheath,
And like a silver clarion rung
The accents of that unknown tongue,
Excelsior!

In happy homes he saw the light
Of household fires gleam warm and bright;
Above, the spectral glaciers shone,
And from his lips escaped a groan,
Excelsior!

"Try not the Pass!" the old man said;
"Dark lowers the tempest overhead,
The roaring torrent is deep and wide!"
And loud that clarion voice replied,
Excelsior!

"O stay," the maiden said, "and rest
Thy weary head upon this breast!"
A tear stood in his bright blue eye,
But still he answered, with a sigh,
Excelsior!

"Beware the pine tree's withered branch!
Beware the awful avalanche!"
This was the peasant's last Good-night,
A voice replied, far up the height,
Excelsior!

At break of day, as heavenward
The pious monks of Saint Bernard
Uttered the oft-repeated prayer,
A voice cried through the startled air,
Excelsior!

A traveller, by the faithful hound,
Half-buried in the snow was found,
Still grasping in his hand of ice
That banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!

There in the twilight cold and gray,
Lifeless, but beautiful, he lay,
And from the sky, serene and far,
A voice fell, like a falling star,
Excelsior!

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
 
Nice poem! A guess concerning the meaning of the word 'Excelsior': In Latin, the verb ex-cello means 1. To rise (above)(i.e. in statue/heighth etc.), 2. to surpass or 3. to excel in. The word excelsus comes from this verb and means 1. High/tall or 2. Excelling. The end of the word Excelsior, -ior, signifies a superlativus in Latin. Excelsior therefore means: excelling above those who excel. Eqqman, is this correct? I don't know how good my Latin vocabulary still is, so perhaps I mixed it up.

William III
 
It's the name of Stan Lee's (Spiderman etc.) autobiography about the days of Marvel Comics in the 60's. Apparently the expression was made famous in a column he wrote. I think it just means "Awesome!", only in a slighly more eccentric phrasing.

:scan:

/Sibben
 
Main Entry: ex·cel·si·or
Pronunciation: ik-'sel-sE-&r, -or
Function: noun
Etymology: trade name, from Latin, higher, comparative of excelsus high, from past participle of excellere
: fine curled wood shavings used especially for packing fragile items

Somehow I don't think Stan intended the second meaning.

We are SO far off-topic now... :rolleyes: :lol:
 
Sisiutil, PLEASE don't tell me you are watching Sci-Fi's "Who wants to be a superhero?" hosted by Stan Lee... I know that guy's voice by heart, and i dont even like comics... must be a video game i played once...

Ahem... ON TO THE CYRUS BUSTING!

EXCeLCi0Rz!!
 
Excelsior would make a good board-name (as long as you don't have the whole poem as your sig)
 
Round 5: to 720 AD

Before I even started the next turn, I made a few adjustments to my cities' tile assignments and builds. In Frankfurt, in particular, I did as Eggman suggested and added a second scientist:

ALCFred720AD01.jpg


This sped up the arrival of the Great Scientist, of course, as well as research. But it also throttled city growth, so I had to deal with that a little later as well.

Meanwhile, I attacked Susa. Emboldened by Betafor's success story, I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best:

ALCFred720AD02.jpg


ALCFred720AD03.jpg


I achieved similar results: 1 Swordsman lost, three promoted to CRII, and all without catapults! I posted an Axeman to guard the city; once the other units healed, they went south.

Meanwhile, I generated my next Great Person--as expected, a Great Scientist from Frankfurt:

ALCFred720AD04.jpg


I immediately used him to build an Academy in that city. That done, I put the scientist back to work until the city grew. Three turns later, I had enough population in Frankfurt to run two scientists AND a food surplus. Building a lighthouse rather than a barracks also helped.

A few turns later I got another GP, a Great Prophet in Berlin this time. He's asleep--once I have a holy city and a shrine to build, he'll be used for that. (He would have popped for Meditation--not the best use for him.) He may wait quite some time. I'd be surprised, frankly, to get another Great Prophet for a long time. And I'm thinking that unless Monty builds the Mahabodhi (the Buddhist shrine), I should save him for that. If Monty does build it, I can just use him for either the Confucian or Christian shrines.

Once I finished researching Code of Laws, Montezuma came by looking for a tech trade:

ALCFred720AD05.jpg


I thought it over and went for it (though I did try negotiating for some of those other techs). I could have given Monty Alphabet, but I want him nice and backwards when I finally take him on, so the longer he lacks it, the more likely that will be. HBR will be handy later on--it means I can upgrade my Chariots that have Combat I/Shock, and take full advantage of my horses. I haven't built any Horse Archers or upgraded to them, but it's good to have that as an option.

Kublai also came by, demanding Construction from me and offering nothing in return. I thought that over carefully and turned him down. I had checked the power chart and saw that I was a little ahead of him, so I figured I was safe for awhile. Besides, since he's my next target, I don't mind if he's ticked with me. It would be extremely convenient if Kublai gets annoyed enough to declare war once I'm finished with Cyrus.

Nevertheless, I managed to work out a decent tech trade with Kublai:

ALCFred720AD06.jpg


After a few turns of inactivity, Cyrus got a little aggressive. Not overly so; he sent some Horse Archers towards Hamburg and Frankfurt to do some pillaging. I had to do some deft micromanagement to keep enough science specialists going. So much for not needing Spearmen!

I switched builds and whipped a couple of Spears, one in Berlin, the other in Cologne. The Warrior I had obtained from a goody hut got upgraded to one as well. By the time I dealt with the pillagers I had lost two Spears, but the remaining one had been promoted to Medic I; Frankfurt's Chariot had finished off a Horse Archer and now has a Shock promotion.

Right around this time, I finished researching Civil Service changed civics:

ALCFred720AD07.jpg


CS and Organized Religion. OR? Yep. Buddhism had spread to my lands! I quickly converted. Montezuma immediately became "Pleased" with me! Excellent...right according to plan.

Meanwhile, the war with Cyrus continued to unfold. I captured Persepolis, and along with it, obtained not only Stonehenge, but also Chichen Itza! Cyrus has been a busy boy...he also founded Christianity. Tarsus is the holy city, making it even more attractive, though I've left it alone for now as I swing south and east.

Pasargadae was next:

ALCFred720AD08.jpg


So now Cyrus was down to two cities. I've seen the AI get very stubborn when its demise is obvious--say, only one city left. So I decided to see what I could get from Cyrus. Tarsus, unfortunately, had disappeared from the list of available items probably because it had become the capital. He was unwilling to give up both Arbela and a tech. But I did manage to extort what I think is a pretty good deal from him:

ALCFred720AD09.jpg


Not bad, eh? Theology and a nice amount of gold. Thanks to the slider running at 0% and the war booty, I have nearly 1000 gold now--plenty for some upgrades when I get Machinery in a few turns. I'm busy researching towards Banking, and I'm picking up several useful techs like Currency, Guilds, and Feudalism along the way.

Speaking of techs, here's a comparative look at the known civs' technologies in 720 AD:

ALCFred720AD12.jpg


And relations:

ALCFred720AD11.jpg


Notice something? Yes, Monty declare war on Kublai, despite their sharing the same religion! Good ol' reliable Monty. Although that does remind me that sharing his religion may not count for much diplomatically. Oh well, it keeps them out of my hair. There is also a chance that Monty may soon ask me to join in the grand Mongolian butt-kicking festival. I may leave Cyrus alone for awhile if the opportunity arises. Persia has been relegated to a non-entity; the only thing they have going for them is two holy cities.

And a look at the map:

ALCFred720AD10.jpg


Yes, the war's been going so well that I've turned to a few much-delayed civilian builds. I can build the Heroic Epic now, and I'm thinking of putting it in Cologne. But if someone thinks of a better location is in order--maybe one of the captured Persian cities?--by all means, let me know.

Since I'm running OR, I plan on building a few Buddhist missionaries once the current builds are complete and spreading the good word to as many of my cities as possible. Then I can switch to Theocracy to build some units with additional XPs for the next war. I would particularly like to get my usual 4 Catapults with Accuracy promotions to remove those pesky city defense bonuses--especially since I'm up against a couple of creative civs.

Now, once again, I'm not sure how well I'm handling the specialist economy. Granted, I have a lot more gold than I usually do at this point in the game, and I'm doing respectably well in comparison to the other civs...but Kublai and Monty aren't exactly tech fiends, and a lot of my pace has to do with trades. I've had some delays farming the floodplains near Susa and Hamburg because, well, I've been at war, and Cyrus had those HAs sniffing around.

I am generating 102 research points per turn at 0% research. Machinery is up after Feudalism, and at my current tech pace, it will take 9 turns to research. Then Guilds will take 14, and Banking, 10. Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and Frankfurt are the cities running science specialists--2 each in the first 3 cities, while Frankfurt also has the GL scientists, plus a merged scientist (my 2nd GS).

Oh, speaking of GPs, I should mention that Monty built the Parthenon. I'm looking forward to taking it from him, though it may be close to obsolete by the time I do.

So while the war has gone quite well, where I really need commentary is on the specialist economy and whether I need to make any changes or adjustments.
 
Nice set you have played there Sisiutil. Impressive. You could be considering turning up the research a bit but that is maybe against the specialist economy. Too bad you aren't religious otherwise you could switch between representation and US to rushbuild stuff. BTW did you already said thank you to Cyrus for the stonehenge and Chiczen Itza? He is such a nice guy and then even Theology in the peace conference. If only things were this easy in the middle east. Finish him off after 10 turns and then get the parthenon of Monty.
 
about the HE, Pasergadae (could be renamed to a more germanic thing like ironcow ;)) may become a quite decent production city. The only problems are:
- it's inland
- it's far from your next fronts
- it's not out of revolt yet.

Well, if you don't mind those little problems, it's perfect :lol:

About your turns :goodjob: good trade, perfect diplomatic situation. I don't think there is much you could have done better.

About SE, you do good too, but now that your pockets are full, there really is no need to stay at 0% research. Most of your commerce tiles are seadfood :lol: but the few turns you can win are welcome in the race to macemen, if i understand the goal.

About next war, where are the elephants?
Against keshiks, you need them (well, you can use spearmen, but elephants are twice as strong!)
 
For the amount of the scientists you say you're running the tech rate seems to be a little slow. If Frankfurt can start developing more of a food surplus to make it pay off, it may be time to switch to caste system soon. I don't think you can afford to wait for Astromomy or Education to have your next opportunity to run more specialists, and trying to run too many cities with 2 scientists each is going to slow down your growth. But you might be okay if Banking is close on the horizon, you'll have to see how much of a tech boost you get from mercantilism.

I don't know if it will be worth fiddling with the slider to squeeze out faster research unless it makes more than a couple of turns' difference. It's just going to be too handy having a stockpile of cash when you're ready to crank out the upgrades. With specialists, fiddling with the slider doesn't make much of a difference anyway unless you have it at one end or the other, but it will make a lot of difference to your gold supply. This will seem to contradict my earlier complaint that your tech rate is too slow, but we need to find ways to speed it up significantly, not just by a turn or two here and there.

How bad was war weariness accumulating during the fight with Cyrus? It would be a shame to have to switch to police state when you're doing such a fine job raking in the cash with representation + war.

Excelsior! ;)
 
Killroyan, I'll have to go through Kublai to get to Monty, so the Parthenon will have to wait awhile. But yes, it was awfully nice of Cyrus to build a couple of wonders for me, even if CI isn't one of my favourites.

Cabert and Eggman, I'll fiddle with the slider a bit in the next round and see where it gets me. As you said, Eggman, there's no point adjusting it unless it shaves off a significant number of turns for research. But I felt that research was indeed slower than in should be, and you've confirmed that. I'm currently 38 turns from Banking, though as the cities grow and Cyrus' come out of revolt, that could change. Even so, it's a long time to wait for a needed civics change.

So on that topic, what I think makes sense is to stick with OR for a few more turns, churning out Buddhist missionaries to spread my SR to my other cities. Then, right around the time the peace treaty expires, switch to Theocracy and Caste System. I will have Vassalage by then too, but I'm wondering if it would really be worthwhile to switch away from Bureaucracy? Perhaps just until Banking/Mercantilism is available, since I'll be switching civics then--about 25 turns later or so.

I am planning on going after Kublai almost as soon as Cyrus is done and will need the units, after all. On that note, I have to say that I'm positively rubbing my hands with glee over that pile of gold the SE is accumulating as I anticipate all those promoted Swords, Axes, and Spears turning into Maces and Pikes. :goodjob:

War weariness has, thus far, been non-existent, so I don't think a change to PS is really necessary. Perhaps if the war versus Kublai drags on. I have been trading gold to Monty for wine for a happy boost, but I should prioritize getting my own vineyard operational. Perhaps Monty has something else I could buy from him.
 
I hate how they named them macemen, they are holding FLAILS!

*cough* anyway - Playing a shadow game from your recent save, i have to admit i spent a lot more turns than i needed to taking out cyrus. Just moving units back and forth.. and you have to keep some units in the south, then bring htem ALL the way up north before you attk... I think it's probably better to leave cyrus as-is and go after kublai. Cyrus will probably build a settler and go to the far SW (there is like 4/5 non tundra tiles), allowing you to possibly extort somethiing else when you go after him again, but even if you can't, he is no threat. You dant need the happiness majorly for your super ciites. another reason - In my game MONTY IS KICKING BUTT! he's taken 2 cities the same turn i finish machinary! I realized my mistake, i had to get over there asap and not waste turns in the double digits finishing cyrus. Why? To a)claim some of the land before its gone and b)get xtra diplo points w/ monty.

On a side note, the city you have your CR2 swords in (forgot the name, how come cyrus has to name his first 2 cities almost identical... monty does this 2 :'( ) Looks like a great spot for a wealth city... look at all the cottages!

On another side note, about a slow tech, this is mostly to do w/ u not switching to caste system earlier. However, i AM worried. Your "Science city" has a bunch of grassland. I've been experimenting with specialist econs, and I agree w/ futurehermit. Floodplains don't just > grassland, they PWN grassland. It's only a 1 food difference per tile, but the math works out to HALF as many specialists! Well, this whole thing was a big exeperiment, and the point is that it wouldnt be perfect, but I would like everyone's opinion of starting a SECOND science city! Pros-cons-

Pro-
More science(duh)

Con-
Have to use a GS for second acadamy
Oxford can only be in one place
have to split settling GS(see below)

The data seems to suggest- Make another science city, but make it a secondary science city. Acadamy is only used when you have upwards of 4 scientists, NO settling GS there, No oxford, ect.

Also, in the all of (4-5) SE games i've played, I've found there is one thing that ALWAYS helps science - expansion. Because for every city, you can have on average 1.5 scientists, which equates to 11.5 beakers per city- meaning if you have 40+ cities, that DEFINITLY can pull some slack off your one/two major science cities. And the great thing is- You can AFFORD TO EXPAND RECKLESSLY- upkeep will NOT hurt your science AT ALL! You are currently running a profit of 23 gpt W/O a major commerce city! w/ one major commerce city, you should be able to upkeep a city for every nook and cranny. Once you have the continent unifited, or maybe even now, build settler.. settler... settler and more settler. build a city w/ all tundra and a deer/silver! or even just the deer! build a city in order to pick up 2 grasslands to stagnate at 2 specialists(well, one extra food, but....). Remember back to the good old days of Unlimited City sprawl? Not quite that extreme, but definitly fill the gaps, as if you had to have the orginal 9 tiles of a city to count for the land for a domination win.
 
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