ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[pigswill]

At around 720ad in my shadow I was roughly on a par with you tech wise though I did have a stack of newly upgraded maces and a few cats so maybe slightly ahead. I was comfortably crushing Cyrus and about to head for his last 2 cities with KK declared on me!
I'm currently up to 1530, still haven't cleared the continent but got liberalism, circum nav and the usual stuff, got astronomy and grenadiers and three turns away from cannons. Been building lots of cottages, running binary research.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

As for a Second science city... a good idea but
1. Only settle GSs in the Major Science City (where the Oxford will be)
2. Only put the Academy in the Secondary Science city if putting it there will get you more Science than putting a Scientist in the Primary Science City

Quick analysis... Pre education
Primary Settled
=9+85% Library+Monastery+Academy=16.65
Academy in Secondary
50% of....34 to compare... that means the Secondary city needs to run 6 Science Specialists for an Academy there to be worthwhile... that means 12 excess food... I don't think you have any city that can run that.

So keep your primary Science city, and several "Others" all running 1-3 Scientists (after going to Caste) and concentrate all Great Scientists on Frankfurt itself

Cologne seems like a good spot for H.E. Other spots might be better long term, but Cologne has a good start, and is very decent.

I wouldn't put off crushing Cyrus too long, just make sure that the Army you do that with is ready to wheel back around to Finish off Kublai

As for Civics, I'd stick with what you have for the readjustment period (State religion, basic buildings...whipping a few in Frankfurt, like Monastery and Lighthouse)
then
->Caste, Theocracy... and just stay there, Bureaucracy is perfect for this strategy, This strategy it need minimal development of most cities (science improvements are barely needed) so OR isn't that necessary, Bureaucracy+Theocracy is a Better War combo than Vassalage+OR
(and Vassalage Theocracy isn't that good... the 4 extra exp are nice, but it doesn't get you a new promotion over 2 exp)

If you have already started on Monty and have most of your army once you get Banking, then it might be worthwhile putting off Mercantilism so that you can go to Mercantilism+OR... but that is probably unlikely, chances are you will be ready to start Gearing up to take on Monty and the Remnants so just switch to Mercantilism, and save the OR return for after Monty has ceased to be an issue.

(any units for the 'Oceanic war' should either be Westpoint or Cannon fodder)

 

[UncleJJ]

I played a few turns from your latest savegame and I must say I'm impressed and somewhat surprised. You have done very well militarily. But on the economic front it is another matter

You should not be mislead by the pile of gold you have. As an experiment I turned up the science rate to 100% and you then had about 200 beakers and losing 65 gold, which leads me to conclude that you have roughly 50% of your economy from commerce and 50% from specialists. In a cottage economy that is equivalent to the 50% research point where you should stop and consolidate and a specialist economy is no different in that resepect. Your long term expansion is as always dependent as much on your economy as it is your military.

Many of your own cities are horribly underdeveloped ... with for instance the capital still building a granary in 700 AD ! Only half your cities have the state religion. You have Markets researched and none built. Many of your cities are well below their happy limit and yet you are running scientists and stunting thier growth. Working more tiles will expand your economy and food is converted to hammers efficiently using Slavery especially with Organised Religion and Forges.

I see you are getting a lot of conflicting advice and mine is no different. The strength of the position you have at present is such that you can win many different ways. I would not use the Caste System in this position (too little food) and Theocracy is totally worthless as your army is big enough for the near future (especially if you upgrade to Maces and Pikes). I would stick with Slavery and Organised Religion, build some infrastructure and when you have both of Kyros's Holy cities spread his religions and maybe change to one of those when you eventually war with Monty. That will be giving money to your economy rather than Monty's.

I await your next move with interest.

 

[Eqqman]

Many of your cities are well below their happy limit and yet you are running scientists and stunting thier growth. Working more tiles will expand your economy and food is converted to hammers efficiently using Slavery especially with Organised Religion and Forges.

This is about the same point I run into with SE. I do really well setting it up, but then I start to peter out shortly after Civil Service. While you're growing to be able to support specialists, you have no science, and if you crank up specialists too soon, then your city growth is too slow. Especially a problem in cities where your food surplus has to come from grassland farms. I'm not sure if total beaker output is more from half science + half growth or all growth then all science. But I believe Futurehermit recommends always growing to happiness limits before running scientists.

 

[Sisiutil]

If you're playing a shadow game, that's cool, but I consider that information to be spoilers if it goes beyond the current end turn. So if you could please NOT post information about your shadow game until the ALC is done, I'd appreciate it. I like reading your posts, but I had to force myself to not read a couple of the preceeding ones lest they influence my choices.

 

[UncleJJ]

Although I did play a couple of turns to get a feel where your units were etc, my comments above pertain to the general state of the nation at the savegame. As such they can be considered comments or advice on your game and not a spoiler. Adjusting the Research slider is something you could do yourself at any stage of the game to get a feel for how well your economy is developed and is something I highly recommend.

 

[Betafor]

As an experiment I turned up the science rate to 100% and you then had about 200 beakers and losing 65 gold, which leads me to conclude that you have roughly 50% of your economy from commerce and 50% from specialists. In a cottage economy that is equivalent to the 50% research point where you should stop

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is flawed. I read your post 5ish ours ago, thought "there is something wrong with this" but couldn't place it. Now i have it (good thing too, because it seriously contradicts my theory)

Why? The simple fact that at a slider at 0, gold and beakers are COMPELETLY seperate.

In a CE, adjusting the slider has one purpose - it TRANSFERS MONEY TO BEAKERS AND VICA VERSA. It does NOT increase the amount of either you have. In a SE, however, gold and beakers are seperate. playing with the slider still transfers the gold to beakers, BUT as soon as you leave 0 percent, you no longer have seperation between beakers and gold. The conclusion is invalid unless you plan to hit enter with the slider above 0. Adjusting with the slider is not a good representation of the civ's econ anymore.

Lets see... I dont feel i've explained my point enough... In a SE, the only way to increase beakers is through specialists, and gold by cottages/traderoute/shrine.

It's your assumption in this quote-

"you have roughly 50% of your economy from commerce and 50% from specialists."

You still think of terms of YOUR ECONOMY, split into TWO PARTS. in reality, its TWO SEPERATE ECONS - gold and science

The so-called 60% rule for the CE is based on matinace and keeping your science rate up. Having less matinance=more gold in a CE means higher slider=more science. The 60% rule is made, not to make sure you are keeping matinance costs down, but to make sure that matinance costs arent keeping you from "teching at the right speed". this is IMPOSSIBLE in a SE. Because the beaker and gold econ are seperate, you could be running a deficit at 0% and still be "teching at the right speed". matinance has no impact on science. civic upkeep comes out of yoru gold tresury, not science. So long as you have a positive cashflow, you are good to go. It's not a "race to keep the matiance costs down" its a "race to get a big enogh profit so i can expand". while stopping and building matiance busters are nice, SO LONG AS YOU HAVE A POSITIVE CASHFLOW THE ONLY THING YOUR GPT AFFECTS IS RUSH BUYING AND UPGRADES Sure, your upkeep could be such that you are running plus ONE at 0%, but the only thing it affects is uprade and rush buying. In a CE, its a slow, dwindling process that kills your science gradually if you dont keep it up. In a SE, it's all or nothing. You don't HAVE to keep it up unless you want a gpt increase for buying upgrades and buildings.

Sorry for the long post- Ever had one of those times when you are trying to explain something and can't find the words, so have to talk around it so people get your drift?

 

[pigswill]

Point taken

 

[UncleJJ]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is flawed. I read your post 5ish ours ago, thought "there is something wrong with this" but couldn't place it. Now i have it (good thing too, because it seriously contradicts my theory)

You are both right and wrong . There is a mathematical error in my post which I'll correct later but the essentials of what I posted are still correct. It is possible to assess the strength of the economy (my definition) by adding the beakers to the gold and subtracting the costs. Let me be precise about the numbers since I made a mistake previously.

For the current game with science rate slider = 0% we get

Research 102
Gold 88
Trade 0
Costs 64


Adjusting the science rate to 100% we get

Research 209
Gold 0
Trade 0
Costs 64

And these figures support the first part of my statement that the commerce is (or can be) about the same as scientists... since it increases the Research from 102 to 209. Therefore it can be seen that slightly more than 50% of the "output" of the current economy comes from commerce.

Furthermore it's possible to see that strength of the economy with the slider at 0% is 102 + 88 = 190 total income versus 209 for the slider at 100%. This is due to the fact that most cities have a library and none have markets yet.

The mistake I made was compare the costs 64 to 190 income and conclude that it was equivalent to 50% in a CE. That is not true and a better estimate would be that a CE (in this situation) would lose gold at 70% and gain gold at 60%. However if Susiutil takes the remaining Persian cities and his population grows he will soon approach the 50% threshold I warned about... so he's getting close to it but is not there yet.

Why? The simple fact that at a slider at 0, gold and beakers are COMPELETLY seperate.

Nonsense. That is not a "fact" it is a false dichotomy that you perpetuate from something futurehermit said a long time ago and it is a position that I believe he has retreated from (but let him speak for himself). There is no reason that a SE should not use commerce to generate beakers as well as specialists. It is perfectly possible to run your economy for long periods with the Science slider at 100%. I will write an article explaining my ideas in another thread rather than clog up Sisutil's thread with unnecessary detail Obviously to use your commerce in this way you need to find other sources of gold... but believe me there are many, many ways to do this.

"you have roughly 50% of your economy from commerce and 50% from specialists."

You still think of terms of YOUR ECONOMY, split into TWO PARTS. in reality, its TWO SEPERATE ECONS - gold and science

There is only one economy in an empire but several ways to look at it. The fact that you can "transfer" gold to beakers via the sliders for commerce and by swapping specialist types indicates there is one economy consisting of beakers and gold produced. For most purposes it is fair to equate one beaker to one gold, but culture complicates the picture and 1 culture is in many cases not worth either a beaker or a gold. Fortunately culture need not complicate our analysis of this game at least at present.

The so-called 60% rule for the CE is based on matinace and keeping your science rate up. Having less matinance=more gold in a CE means higher slider=more science. The 60% rule is made, not to make sure you are keeping matinance costs down, but to make sure that matinance costs arent keeping you from "teching at the right speed". this is IMPOSSIBLE in a SE. Because the beaker and gold econ are seperate, you could be running a deficit at 0% and still be "teching at the right speed". matinance has no impact on science. civic upkeep comes out of yoru gold tresury, not science. So long as you have a positive cashflow, you are good to go. It's not a "race to keep the matiance costs down" its a "race to get a big enogh profit so i can expand". while stopping and building matiance busters are nice, SO LONG AS YOU HAVE A POSITIVE CASHFLOW THE ONLY THING YOUR GPT AFFECTS IS RUSH BUYING AND UPGRADES Sure, your upkeep could be such that you are running plus ONE at 0%, but the only thing it affects is uprade and rush buying. In a CE, its a slow, dwindling process that kills your science gradually if you dont keep it up. In a SE, it's all or nothing. You don't HAVE to keep it up unless you want a gpt increase for buying upgrades and buildings

Sorry, I don't really understand that at all. It seems to conceal some sort of voodoo economics that you seem to think gives you something for nothing and "empowers" a SE in some special way. There is nothing magical about having a research slider set at 0%. That simply consigns all your commerce to gold (assuming culture =0%) ... which might or might not meet the current costs of your empire. The commerce you earn is an independent variable from the costs of your empire. As far as the economic health of your empire is concerned saving 10 gold from your costs is as good as earning 10 gold more income.

The costs of an empire running a SE with say 10 cities and 60 population and an an army of 50 units are the same as the costs of an equivalent sized CE or any other type of "economy". But when this little empire doubles in size the costs will more than double (due to the way the game is set up) but obviously the commerce will only double (on average) and this is where the simplistic assumption that keeping the research slider at 0% fails. At some point the costs of a larger empire will become unbearable and the expansion will need stop until costs have been cut and / or income boosted.

There is much more to say... but it has all been said before by many good people so I'll stop and let you rest your eyes.

 

[Betafor]

BIG SNIP

Well, i think we are arguing about something the other person never said .

My analysis assumes that we keep it at 0% the entire game. In this case, since they ARE seperate (your argument otherwise assumes moving the slider) You can feel free to expand w/o hurting your science until you run a negative. This is NOT to say that building your income to pay for future matinance/rushbuy/upgrade is a bad thing, and that you have to expand to the breaking point before you build. I'm just saying you CAN do this with a SE w/o killing your econ. The 50% you see from adjusting the slider is based on the imbalance(as you have said) of X% boni in the ciites (more library than market)

You analysis assumes that the slider is not "fixed" at 0. This means that at some point, the "value" of a coin is less than the "value" of a beaker (50% actually )

It's almost like the value of a dollar vs the value of the euro. If the EU and America never interacted, lived on seperate worlds, never affected each other, the % difference between them is negligable(discounting the interior problems of inflation, but thats a diff topic) Because all of America would be on the same basis and all of EU would be on the same basis. However, if they do interact, it is a cause for concern. Because now the value of the dollar is 50% of euro or vica versa, meaning happy tourists one end and sad the other

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well in a SE, even with the slider at 0% more expansion will kill your Science... because eventually you are running a deficit.... which means you need to change scientists into merchants.

The fact is this Is definitely comparable to a Cottage Economy being run at 50% (with a surplus)

The sole advantage to the SE is that almost all of your science is being channeled through the Science city giving it the maximum possible benefit.... in a corttage economy running at 50% you can't specialize that way because every city is producing equal gold and science... a Marketplace+a Library is needed in each city for the benefit of a Library in one city and a Marketplace in others for a Specialist city.

(actually Mercantilism weakens this specialization... but it basically gives free stuff, so you don't complain)

 

[Betafor]

Well in a SE, even with the slider at 0% more expansion will kill your Science... because eventually you are running a deficit.... which means you need to change scientists into merchants.

The fact is this Is definitely comparable to a Cottage Economy being run at 50% (with a surplus)

Yes. for the fist, No for the second. Count the bad effects in a SE of having a lower, but not deficit, profit(econ wise)- 0. In a CE, you have to keep the matinance down/gold up in order to keep the slider running for science, so having the "percentage slider" at 50 is worse than 60 is worse than 70 is worse than 80, ect. because the lower you go, the less science you are producing. In an SE, it's all or nothing, because anything short of a deficit will NOT affect your economy.- In this case, econ wise, a "percentage slider" of 90 is exactly the same as 10. (I'm talking about the 50% number here, not what the actual slider is on). Because the only thing that is affected as you go from 90 to 80 to 70 is how much GOLD surplus you have, NOT how much beakers you are producing.

You cold theoretically expand until you run a deficit, then build.(provided you have enough gold stored to keep you afloat until you get the problem fixed.

Now. I'm goign to say something that may sound counterproductive. Eventually, running enough SE games, you will get to the point when you should find when you need to build in anticipation of expansion, so you dont hit a deficit. Therefore(i haven't looked at the numbers yet) it actually may be best to build and bring up your gold to pay for the matinance (commerce city, anyone?). BUT the reason you would do this is PREVENTION, whereas in a CE it would be to keep your econ strong. In a SE all or nothing scenario, your efforts should be one goal-keeping it a plus(assuming you dont want more of a plus for buying, upgrade ect). How much of a plus is irrelavent. So the question here is not "What percent slider is it at?"(50%) it's "how much matinance would it take for me to have x more cities? Do I have that amount of gold i want to spend? Will I have that much gold to spend by the time i get the cities?"

The sole advantage to the SE is that almost all of your science is being channeled through the Science city giving it the maximum possible benefit.... in a corttage economy running at 50% you can't specialize that way because every city is producing equal gold and science... a Marketplace+a Library is needed in each city for the benefit of a Library in one city and a Marketplace in others for a Specialist city.

(actually Mercantilism weakens this specialization... but it basically gives free stuff, so you don't complain)

It's a major advantage, but not the sole one, ty very much

 

[UncleJJ]

Well in a SE, even with the slider at 0% more expansion will kill your Science... because eventually you are running a deficit.... which means you need to change scientists into merchants.

The fact is this Is definitely comparable to a Cottage Economy being run at 50% (with a surplus)

The sole advantage to the SE is that almost all of your science is being channeled through the Science city giving it the maximum possible benefit.... in a corttage economy running at 50% you can't specialize that way because every city is producing equal gold and science... a Marketplace+a Library is needed in each city for the benefit of a Library in one city and a Marketplace in others for a Specialist city.

(actually Mercantilism weakens this specialization... but it basically gives free stuff, so you don't complain)

The advantage of a SE is that you can choose which city to make the change from scientist to merchant. Obviously you do that first in the city with the best gold bonusses and then proceed in a way that raises the gold needed while still getting as much science as possible. A CE can't be so selective and applies his commerce changes to all cities regardless of how good they are at making beakers or gold. It is this ability to pick and choose that is the advantage.

Also you can decide what to build first in each city to boost its main role... so if you intend to run mainly scientists build library, university and observatories plus as many monastries as you can and only build a market and grocer if needed for health and happiness. Similarly if you intend to run merchants be sure to build a bank. This allows you to get an early advantage over a CE.

 

[Araqiel]

Most gold modifiers come late enough that I don't think that it'd qualify as an early advantage.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 6: to 1200 AD

Build, war, build. That about sums it up. It also tells you what we're in for come the next round.

I started by making a wee diversion on the tech path. It was only going to take one turn, a trade for it would have been very lopsided, and it would allow me to build some more science multipliers in addition to libraries:

Then I went back on the path to Banking. I immediately changed build orders in Frankfurt to a Confucian monastery. I later spread Buddhism there and built a Buddhist monastery as well. Meanwhile, the Heroic Epic was built in Cologne.

I tinkered with the slider, but I would have had to set it at 100% research to make a significant difference and would have had a large deficit that would eat through my gold in no time. So I left it at 0% the whole round.

Meanwhile, my next wonder finished in Hamburg:

That was handy. I did a tour of my cities and was able to increase the number of scientists in a couple of them while still keeping growth at a reasonable level (+2 food per turn in almost all my cities). As has been pointed out, I'd delayed some vital infrastructure--granaries in particular--in favour of military, so the pop boost helped offset that opportunity cost somewhat.

Kublai, mired in his war with Monty, also came by for a visit:

Ah...no, you're on your own, big guy. I'm keeping Monty as happy with my as I can until I'm ready to take him down. You, on the other hand, are expendable. Later in the round, Monty captured one of Kublai's cities and then they made peace. They're now pleased with each other again, but Monty has declaring war on Kublai as an available option in the diplomacy screen. I'm pretty far ahead of Monty in tech and cash, so later on, I should be able to bribe him into attacking if I want.

But I had a war of my own to finish.

He was just about to plunk down another city just south of Pasargadae (there was a Settler and an Archer accompanying the Spearman you can see to the left in that screenshot). I hemmed and hawed and decided that I didn't want to waste time bombarding and capturing three cities instead of two, so I took them down before moving on to besiege Arbela. And, of course, I got a free Worker for my trouble!

I also got some more Great People.

I got three Great Scientists this round--two from Frankfurt and one from Hamburg. Two settled in Frankfurt for additional research. I regarded the one from Hamburg as a bit of a freebie since I was expecting a Great Engineer whom I would have saved for a worthwhile wonder. So instead of settling him, I used him to acquire Philosophy, especially since Taoism had not been founded yet and I wanted a leg up on the Liberalism race. Munich became the holy city. Unfortunately, the free missionary failed in his attempt to spread Taoism to Frankfurt so I could build another monastery. I'll have to try again later, and with Christianity as well.

You can weigh in on whether burning a GS for a tech is the best use of him in the specialist economy or not. I suppose not, since it's all about specialists, and I just burned one instead of making use of him for the rest of the game. But as I said, I wanted a leg up on the Liberalism race. Eggman had agreed with me that my research was progressing more slowly than expected, and I was making a research diversion to Banking (which I usually don't research until AFTER Liberalism). So, as with several things in Civ, it was a trade-off.

Shortly thereafter, Herr Cyrus was finally kaput:

Yes! The southern half of the continent is now MINE. Very satisfying.

Just a few turns after that, a very significant technology was discovered, one I'd been working towards in order to further boost the specialist economy:

With everything now in place, I made a civics change:

Representation for the continued research boost per specialist, Bureaucracy for the boost in the capital, Caste System for the unlimited scientists, Mercantilism for the free specialist, and Organized Religion for the help infrastructure buildings.

While I lost several GPT from the lack of foreign trade routes, the multiple scientists I'm now running in several cities has been a huge boost to research, especially as the captured Persian cities become productive in that regard. I'm being careful to ensoure the cities can still grow. But WOW--4-5 scientists in several cities is making a big, BIG difference. It's obvious that those two civics really unleash the power of the specialist economy once you have enough farms in place.

I'm teetering on a deficit at 0% on the slider, but I'm managing to stay afloat even without any merchant specialists. I'm building some markets and courthouses to help with that. My large standing army probably isn't helping, so I really should get some use out of them shortly.

I played a few more turns to get things settled out (including researching calendar just to get Munich's bananas plantationed). Here's the map at 1200 AD:

And since I'm getting all antsy to go to war again, a look at the power grid:

I considered diverting research again, from Education towards Engineering, in order to gain the road bonus as well as Pikemen before attacking Kublai. But then I checked the resource screen and saw that poor Kublai apparently doesn't have any horses! No Keshiks for you! says the Civ nazi! So instead, I'll stay on the Liberalism track...

But what should the free tech be? Printing Press is not going to be very useful this time, with no cottages to speak of. If I want Astronomy, I'll have to make a detour to Optics. That may not be a bad idea, so I can get a couple of Caravels out to find the remaining civs and potentially circumnavigate the world. It's only three turns. Sounds like a plan.

Since I'm still building some infrastructure, I think it may make sense to bribe Monty to attack Kublai. This would divert some of Kublai's forces away from his borders with me, as well as potentially weakening him. The problem might be that Monty would be TOO successful, but then again, that would only spread his forces more thinly when I do take him on.

I also have a bit of empty space south of Tarsus where I really should put another city to grab the wheat and the copper. Hmm, yes, I razed one that Cyrus put there in the first war, and now I think I probably should have kept it. Live and learn. I also should eventually found a coastal city south of Pasargadae just to snag that whale tile. Kublai has a galley with an Archer and a Settler just starting to travel down my east coast, so he may do it for me.

Here's the saved game, and I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Yes. for the fist, No for the second. Count the bad effects in a SE of having a lower, but not deficit, profit(econ wise)- 0.

This didn't make any sense to me as I read it, so let me try to write it, and you tell me if I have the right idea.

Assumption: in a specialist economy, commerce is concentrated in cities specialized for wealth. Until the gold multiplier buildings become available, these cities are primarily dedicating their hammers to units, forsaking the usual assortment of science multiplier buildings.

Therefore, to first order, the efficiency of the economy is not affected by the research slider; that is - commerce gets converted to (gold+beakers) at the same rate no matter where the slider is set. Yes, I'm ignoring trade routes here, I did say first order. The efficiency of the economy does still depend on the culture slider.

In a commerce driven economy, lowering the slider shifts the allocation of commerce from research to gold; this reduces the efficiency of the economy during this period.

In other words, a 500 GNP commerce based economy goes becomes a 400 GNP economy when you switch from 100% science economy (multiplied by libraries) to a 100% wealth economy (multiplied by nothing). A 500 GNP specialist economy is still running at 500 GNP regardless of where the science slider is set.

Do I have the argument right? I don't agree that anything I just wrote is relevant, but I would like to be sure that I'm understanding the stated position correctly.

 

[pigswill]

Sisiutil: for purpose of comparision could you post your Gold/beaker/hammer output when you get to 1500ad (its about the only save I've kept).

 

[Betafor]

This didn't make any sense to me as I read it, so let me try to write it, and you tell me if I have the right idea.

Assumption: in a specialist economy, commerce is concentrated in cities specialized for wealth. Until the gold multiplier buildings become available, these cities are primarily dedicating their hammers to units, forsaking the usual assortment of science multiplier buildings.

Therefore, to first order, the efficiency of the economy is not affected by the research slider; that is - commerce gets converted to (gold+beakers) at the same rate no matter where the slider is set. Yes, I'm ignoring trade routes here, I did say first order. The efficiency of the economy does still depend on the culture slider.

In a commerce driven economy, lowering the slider shifts the allocation of commerce from research to gold; this reduces the efficiency of the economy during this period.

In other words, a 500 GNP commerce based economy goes becomes a 400 GNP economy when you switch from 100% science economy (multiplied by libraries) to a 100% wealth economy (multiplied by nothing). A 500 GNP specialist economy is still running at 500 GNP regardless of where the science slider is set.

Do I have the argument right? I don't agree that anything I just wrote is relevant, but I would like to be sure that I'm understanding the stated position correctly.

The basics are right, but i have a nit pick- you say "no matter where the slider is set" In fact, the subtle change is -

SE - 500 GNP econ - 400 specialist beakers, 100 raw gold.
Moving the slider Only affects the 100 raw gold - What you notice as the 500 GNP "still running at 500 GMP" is really the 400 beakers.

CE - 500 GNP econ - 500 raw gold
Moving the slider affects the entire 500 raw gold.

 

[Eqqman]

I also have a bit of empty space south of Tarsus where I really should put another city to grab the wheat and the copper. Hmm, yes, I razed one that Cyrus put there in the first war, and now I think I probably should have kept it. Live and learn.

I wouldn't fret too much about it. Since those people would be yearning to rejoin the motherland during the second fight with Cyrus, if it wasn't a great city to begin with it's no loss. One of those cases you mentioned where you have to weigh your long term benefits vs your short ones.

I think Futurehermit's numbers only needed something on the order of 6 settled specialists in the super science city, so if you're on track for pulling that off burning one on tech is probably wise. If you're close to getting another one you may even consider using him on Liberalism. If you can arrange the techs to use a GS on Liberalism, you may want to stagnate Frankfurt for a while to run enough scientists to make sure you get one when you need it. This can help offset the tech diversions of Optics & Engineering. I think getting Astonomy for free will be wise, since we need those Universities & Observatories right away.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The basics are right, but i have a nit pick- you say "no matter where the slider is set" In fact, the subtle change is -

SE - 500 GNP econ - 400 specialist beakers, 100 raw gold.
Moving the slider Only affects the 100 raw gold - What you notice as the 500 GNP "still running at 500 GMP" is really the 400 beakers.

CE - 500 GNP econ - 500 raw gold
Moving the slider affects the entire 500 raw gold.

Well, we aren't close yet, because I don't agree that for a cottage economy 500 GNP goes to 500 raw gold. Are we confusing gold and commerce? Let me try again.

A hypothetical specialist economy, running at about 500 GNP, would look like specialists worth 320 raw beakers, running in cities with a 25% modifier, plus 100 commerce, which runs with no modifier at all. We don't bother to build libraries in the commerce towns, so that 100 commerce is converted to 100 beakers, 100 gold, or some mix, depending on where the slider is set - but regardless of the setting, the total GNP is still 500 (320*1.25 + (100-gold) + gold).

A commerce driven economy, matching this at 100% science, would need to have 400 commerce (400 * 1.25 = 500 beakers = 500 GNP). But as you start moving the slider, GNP falls - every 10% on the slider lowers the GNP by 10, so that when you are running 0% science, instead of 500 GNP (all research), you have 400 GNP (all gold).

So the question: is this loss of 100 GNP the effect you were trying to describe when you wrote:

Yes. for the fist, No for the second. Count the bad effects in a SE of having a lower, but not deficit, profit(econ wise)- 0. In a CE, you have to keep the matinance down/gold up in order to keep the slider running for science, so having the "percentage slider" at 50 is worse than 60 is worse than 70 is worse than 80, ect. because the lower you go, the less science you are producing. In an SE, it's all or nothing, because anything short of a deficit will NOT affect your economy.- In this case, econ wise, a "percentage slider" of 90 is exactly the same as 10. (I'm talking about the 50% number here, not what the actual slider is on). Because the only thing that is affected as you go from 90 to 80 to 70 is how much GOLD surplus you have, NOT how much beakers you are producing.

Sidenote: my apologies to everyone - I should have looked more carefully at tech costs before setting up this example, which while possibly illustrative is hopelessly out of scale - I ought to have been aiming for economies producing 150-200 beakers per turn, because what we are really talking about here is the era between libraries and markets/grocers/banks. 500 GNP is too strong for that era, I ought to have scaled things to the 1 tech/5 turn standard. Something to correct going forward, assuming that I'm getting agreement on the basics of the topic.