ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Jet]

n°3 could build a pyramid without oracle in the same time frame

Aha! For example: build on the stone and work crabs + 2 mines. I'm not sure whether the mystery tile is hills or flat, but assuming it's flat, 1 plains mine and 1 grass mine. Hammers = 3(city tile) + 4 (plains mine) + 3 (grass mine) = 10. x2 = 20. Pyramids (cost 450) in 23 turns with zero delay for stone hookup. That's brilliant (of you, not me )!

 

[ese-aSH]

@sisiutil : your spot for city 4 --> 1 food ressource but only 1 irrigated tile (plains are useless anyway), you will get short on food
berlin looks like your production city (that is good, let your capital produce and other cities run specialists). Just hambourg spot seems bad to me... could you explore a bit more NW from berlin ?

edit : I have a question too... whats the use o queue switching eggman ??? you say : 'prepare obelisk to 28/30 and then whip it to comlpete oracle with the overflow'... okya but : if the overflow is okay to finish the oracle, why not whip directly the oracle ??? well i dont really understand the benefits of queue switching yet :/

 

[Eggolas]

The Scout has not revealed enough of the map to determine where the city placements should go. There is a flood plain revealed to the west of Berlin and where there is one flood plain . . .

There is food for a specialist city. Send the scout west and let's see what else is over there. Also, it wouild be helpful to know where Cyrus is located in relation to Berlin. It's usually a good idea to expand towards your neighbor and fill in behind later, but let's see what's revealed before making too many plans.

 

[cabert]

Aha! For example: build on the stone and work crabs + 2 mines. I'm not sure whether the mystery tile is hills or flat, but assuming it's flat, 1 plains mine and 1 grass mine. Hammers = 3(city tile) + 4 (plains mine) + 3 (grass mine) = 10. x2 = 20. Pyramids (cost 450) in 23 turns with zero delay for stone hookup. That's brilliant (of you, not me )!

are you having fun on me? Or are you serious?
I did not say anything brilliant yet, and I don't think i'm a brilliant cIVer.

However founding the city on the stone and sending 2 workers to chop the pyramids there maybe much faster than teching priesthood. That was my idea. I don't think you can grow the city to size 4 in time to build it the way you wrote it, but i'm pretty sure you can build the city in the same time frame than you tech masonry, and chop all those woody things much sooner than you would get the Oracle, the forge ,...

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

One last thing, since you got Mysticism for free I'd replace Meditation with Polytheism so you have a faster eventual path to Literature.

It also gives you an outside shot at founding Hinduism. The times I've tried this approach on Prince, I've made the Hindu holy city. If you do succeed at that (and/or maybe if you don't), it's worth considering removing the engineer specialist after you build The Pyramids. That would change the timing so you'll get a prophet instead of an engineer for your second great person. If you really want to get fancy, you could remove the engineer only for exactly the right number of turns (which I have not calculated for you ) to miss the great engineer by one turn.

 

[cabert]

It also gives you an outside shot at founding Hinduism. The times I've tried this approach on Prince, I've made the Hindu holy city. If you do succeed at that (and/or maybe if you don't), it's worth considering removing the engineer specialist after you build The Pyramids. That would change the timing so you'll get a prophet instead of an engineer for your second great person. If you really want to get fancy, you could remove the engineer only for exactly the right number of turns (which I have not calculated for you ) to miss the great engineer by one turn.

if the game goes this way I very much plead that we go towards a cultural win (ie : build the GL in a 3rd city, build the hindu monastery ASAP in the 3 big ones, ...)

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Its a risk reward situation. Oracle/MC/GE/Pyramid sequence has a pretty high probablilty of going wrong compared to hooking up stone and just building the pyramids.

I think you're overestimating the chance of failure. My gut feeling is that if you can get The Pyramids built by 1000BC, you have virtually 100% chance of success. I think the only way you would miss it is in a truly diabolical situation like Industrious nation that starts with Agriculture founds their capital on a plains hill next two 2 corn tiles and stone and/or marble.

You're building The Oracle pretty much as fast as possible. This plan is pretty much a beeline to Priesthood followed by chopping and whipping The Oracle. About the only way you could speed that up would be if you don't build the worker or settler first, and at that point you've totally trashed your empire. Also, I don't think the AI would ever start a wonder before building a settler, so you don't need to rush that quickly.

The Pyramids will be built no more than 6 + 17 turns later and hopefully before 1000BC. Eggman, have you or futurehermit ever failed to get The Pyramids when you've made that deadline? I get the impression you haven't.

Update on generating a prophet: The basic question is how many turns do you need to remove the engineer in order to reach 100 points from The Oracle (at 4 per turn) before you reach 192 points from the engineer and The Pyramids combined (at 10 per turn). Since it will take The Oracle 25 turns, I think the algebra works out something like this, where N is the number of turns without the specialist.

192 > 4N + 10 * (25 - N)
192 > 4N + 250 - 10N
6N > 58
N > 9.67

So if you want a prophet, you would need to remove the engineer for 9 or 10 turns (probably 10 to be safe) out of the 20 to 25 it would take to generate your second great person.

 

[Nares]

This is obviously perfectly fine but I think a player has more net advantage in their corner if they went with a really strong MC/P than just making the Pyramids.

I'm unsure why you consider the slingshot to be so much more powerful. All it does is net you Metal Casting, and a source of ancient culture plus some Great Prophet points.

Metal Casting is nice if you can use it. Forges are expensive for non-Industrious civs, and even with the Silver down south, I doubt it will be accessable early enough to warrant a MC slingshot.

The extra GPP are unnecessary, and actually serve to complicate the process of generating Great People as GPs are otherwise undesirable when working towards GEs and GSs.

Besides, it blows the Great Engineer you could be using for The Great Library on The Pyramids.

 

[Fetch]

It wasn't mentioned, but in regards to popping the techs from the huts:

IIRC, 1.61 update has a "feature" in it such that what is given by the first hut is most likely given by all huts. In your case Tech > tech. Now, I'm not sure whate effect reloading the game will have on that, but I would actively pursue more huts with your scout and with the chariots you plan to build. I believe they will be very beneficial.

 

[Nares]

Its a risk reward situation. Oracle/MC/GE/Pyramid sequence has a pretty high probablilty of going wrong compared to hooking up stone and just building the pyramids. This is of course balanced by the gain of an extra technology and wonder. As well as a hammer advantage because you avoid putting in 225 hammers into pyramids. (assuming you'd get stone in the other case).

Yes, there are things that can go wrong in the slingshot, though I find it unlikely that they will happen on this difficulty. The biggest risk is that Cyrus, or another wonder inclined (perhaps even Industrious) leader with access to Stone and having a Government civic has his or her favorite civic may build The Pyramids before Sisiutil does.

This happened in ALC6. I consistently saw Cyrus complete The Pyramids, because Representation is his favorite civic, and he had access to Stone, and he is rather inclined to build wonders (tied for second with some other leaders; only Louis XIV is more inclined to start a wonder).

Keep in mind that, offsetting the 225 hammer cost of The Pyramids with Stone by pure building is the 150 hammer cost of The Oracle and the 120 hammer cost of a Forge under the slingshot. While the Forge can be whipped, and must be whipped in order to have it running in time to pick up enough GEP to overcome the 4GPPpt The Oracle will generate (I believe it's a seven or eight turn window here, and without Industrious, the 120 hammer cost of a Forge is prohibitive), this would serve to stagnate the GE city, especially with the low food start at hand.

 

[carl corey]

I don't know, they've pretty much mapped the Forge-GE-Pyramid tactic some time ago, I guess they know what they're doing. As for me, I love netting Metal Casting. In my experience, on Prince, if I go for it I'm the only one to have it for some time, so I quickly beeline to Alphabet and Currency instead of the "usual" CoL and CS. That way I have a really good tech to trade for the CoL-CS line and I have early forges in the cities which can afford them. I guess it's just another way of playing.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I'm unsure why you consider the slingshot to be so much more powerful. All it does is net you Metal Casting, and a source of ancient culture plus some Great Prophet points.

It also saves you 450 hammers (or 225 if you're lucky enough to have stone). When you look at it that way, it basically gains you a barracks, a monastery, and nearly 10 axemen.

It's also just a different approach than the standard recipes for a win, which can make the game more entertaining, even if it isn't the best strategy (which I'm not conceding , but even if ...).

Also, keep in mind that this was originally being tried with Mao where Metal Casting gets you a major step along the way to Cho-Ko-Nus, so there's an extra advantage in that situation.

Besides, it blows the Great Engineer you could be using for The Great Library on The Pyramids.

That's true, but

• You have another Great Engineer on the way 20 turns later which should be plenty soon enough for The Great Library.
• The Great Library costs 350 hammers compared to 450 for The Pyramids. Assuming you want both (and if you're running a specialist economy, you do want both), which one is a better use of the engineer? Before you answer, make sure you also consider that by the time you discover Literature, your empire will be better developed and more prepared to build a wonder from scratch. Also you'll be prepared to research Mathematics for improved chopping if you like.

Edit: You make a good point about the hammers for The Oracle and the forge offsetting the savings from The Pyramids, though I don't think it's a one-to-one comparison. That is, you can't just say 450 - 150 - 120 = 180. You get some side benefits from The Oracle and the forge, so it's not like you're just throwing hammers away on them. Also note that he has both gold and silver, so the forge will generate 2 happy faces, not just one from the silver.

 

[cabert]

i don't like the "going around" strats much, because you always have some unwanted side effects. Here the side effect are :
- the biggest risk of failing;
- the unwanted Great Prophet points;
- the next GP will be more expensive;
- the GE generating city will be stagnant at size 1.

But IF (i don't vote for it) this going around strat is used, it should be pushed as far as possible :
- forges are great buildings when you have gold and silver!
- if you (we?) get a religion on the way (and you should try to get one if you go around the pyramids), this religion can be used for even more happiness + culture (one more thing : the holy city will most certainly go to a later city, ie not Berlin, so you'll have one more source of pollution to the GPP. Either you'll get less GE or you'll get less GS)
- multiple wonders should be in 3 big cities, preparing for a cultural run

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

- multiple wonders should be in 3 big cities, preparing for a cultural run

The main worry I have with this is that I'm not sure how big any of the 3 "big" cities will be able to grow.

Berlin is horribly food challenged. If I counted correctly, it has 28 food without improvements. Pastured cows gives it 29, leaving 11 to be made up elsewhere.

If we assume that all of Hamburg's (assuming Hamburg is 1S of the gold as shown in Sisiutil's dot map) foggy tiles are 2 food (a generous assumption, I think), then I count 34 food without improvements. Farm the rice and flood plains and farm one more tile to bring water to the rice, and you get 4 more food (3 farms plus rice). Then Hamburg only needs 2 more food, but note that it shares 4 tiles with Berlin, so that will limit the growth of one or both cities.

City #3 has 36 food without improvements but with a lighthouse. The crabs will add 2 more, so that city is pretty good in terms of base food; however, if you go the cottage spam route to culture, there are only 12 tiles that can take a cottage. That goes down to 10 if you consider the missing 2 food. If you go the specialist route to culture, there are 10 farmable tiles and 3 that can take windmills -- enough for 11 extra food and 5 specialists.

City #4 has 37 food without improvements but with a lighthouse. The clams will add 2 more, so that city is pretty good in terms of base food; however, if you go the cottage spam route to culture, there are only 9 tiles that can take a cottage (assuming the ivory is out of play). That goes down to 8 if you consider the missing 1 food. If you go the specialist route to culture, there are 8 farmable tiles and 1 that can take a windmill -- enough for 8 extra food and 4 specialists.

None of these cities is terrible. I'm not suggesting they should be built elsewhere, but none of them strikes me as a cultural powerhouse. It might be possible to achieve a cultural win, but I don't look at this setup and think that it screams out cultural win.

 

[cabert]

The main worry I have with this is that I'm not sure how big any of the 3 "big" cities will be able to grow.

Berlin is horribly food challenged. If I counted correctly, it has 28 food without improvements. Pastured cows gives it 29, leaving 11 to be made up elsewhere.

If we assume that all of Hamburg's (assuming Hamburg is 1S of the gold as shown in Sisiutil's dot map) foggy tiles are 2 food (a generous assumption, I think), then I count 34 food without improvements. Farm the rice and flood plains and farm one more tile to bring water to the rice, and you get 4 more food (3 farms plus rice). Then Hamburg only needs 2 more food, but note that it shares 4 tiles with Berlin, so that will limit the growth of one or both cities.

that's why i advocate building n°2 (hamburg) 1E of the gold.

But you're right the map doesn't scream cultural. But the going around strategy screams "backward teching" and "religion", so ...
My opinion is either going for a SE through building the pyramids or have fun with going around strat but don't expect a solid economy.

 

[Jet]

are you having fun on me? Or are you serious?

My intent was not to make fun of you, but to exaggerate for humor because I was pleased by your brilliant idea to build the Pyramids there! Even though it is fairly obvious, I hadn't thought of it myself!

Edit:

I don't think you can grow the city to size 4 in time to build it the way you wrote it,

Only need size 3, actually!

 

[Sisiutil]

That's the whole crux of the argument of when and how many GP/GE's you end up getting that popped up in this thread. It's vital you don't pollute your Great Person pools with mixed sources. So the Oracle goes into Berlin, and the Forge + Pyramids go into Hamburg.

That's what I thought, but given the precise detail of your plan, I wanted to make sure I had it right. The first couple of ALCs (Monty and Mao) indicated just how important and powerful dedicated GP points in each city can be, so that is my preference as well. Having Hamburg producing GEs would be very handy since I'm not Industrial. Remember all the GEs and resultant Wonders I was able to build in the Mao game? That was fun. I may try to build the Hanging Gardens and Hagia Sophia there later on for more GE points.

I agree that a little more exploration is needed before the final city sites are decided. I think the Scout will head northwest, so we can determine the exact site for Hamburg before the Settler appears. Though I like Jet's suggestion for building right on the stone and making that site the science city.

On the bigger picture regarding strategy selections, Doc is correct. With all of us getting more skilled, to the point where an ALC ending in a win has become a foregone conclusion, my thoughts are to make the games more interesting and challenging by trying some different gambits. Even if they result in a sub-optimal game, we can all, nonetheless, learn a lot from that. Though if this plan comes together, I doubt the result will indeed be sub-optimal.

 

[Nares]

It also saves you 450 hammers (or 225 if you're lucky enough to have stone). When you look at it that way, it basically gains you a barracks, a monastery, and nearly 10 axemen.

But it doesn't save you 450 hammers. It comes to 450 - 150 (The Oracle) - 120 (Forge), which comes out to 450 - 270, which is only a 180 hammer difference, 90 with stone.

As I said, it does give you Metal Casting, and it does give you a source of ancient culture (8/16pt), and it keeps The Oracle out of your enemies' hands.

But it blows a GE, increases your future GP costs, pollutes the GP pool in an additional city, and delays your GSs.

I'm still not sold on it, besides it being typically far slower than advertised, though I will agree that it is the more "interesting" option.

 

[Sisiutil]

But it doesn't save you 450 hammers. It comes to 450 - 150 (The Oracle) - 120 (Forge), which comes out to 450 - 270, which is only a 180 hammer difference, 90 with stone.

As I said, it does give you Metal Casting, and it does give you a source of ancient culture (8/16pt), and it keeps The Oracle out of your enemies' hands.

But it blows a GE, increases your future GP costs, pollutes the GP pool in an additional city, and delays your GSs.

I'm still not sold on it, besides it being typically far slower than advertised, though I will agree that it is the more "interesting" option.

Since I'd usually want to build the Oracle and a forge anyway, I'd still be spending those hammers, so I think this gambit is saving a huge amount of them.

As for the other costs--well, just remember that in the last few ALCs I haven't bothered pursuing the Pyramids because of the multiple costs involved in building them. Why are the Pyramids so attractive to capture rather than build? It isn't just because of the wonder's effects. It's because you know the civ that built them had to devote much of its production in one of its best cities, for several turns, to the 'mids rather than to other things, such as the Axemen you will use to take them.

The appeal of this strategy is that you get to have your cake and eat it too. You get a wonder (The Oracle), a tech (Metal Casting), and a building (Forge) you'd want anyway. You might change the order in which you do things, but over the course of the gambit you avoid directing your production to the Pyramids.

For a Philosophical civ, delaying other Great People is not as big a deal. But having the Pyramids to help generate more Great Engineers IS a big deal.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Since I'd usually want to build the Oracle and a forge anyway, I'd still be spending those hammers, so I think this gambit is saving a huge amount of them.

Exactly. You probably want The Oracle, you definitely want a forge eventually, you're going to research Metal Casting at some point, and if you want to run a specialist economy, you need to build (or capture, I suppose) The Pyramids. You aren't spending the 280 hammers to get The Pyramids. You're spending them to get The Oracle, Metal Casting, a forge, and The Pyramids.

I'm not really sure why using a great engineer to build a 450 hammer wonder that gives you Representation is wasting it. The fact that it increases the cost of future great people is irrelevant unless you never want to generate any great people in your game. Whatever your first great person is and whenever he appears, he'll increase the cost of the next one.

The only thing you're really losing compared to an alternative approach is that depending on your terrain, your cities might not grow quite as large as they otherwise would, since you're emphasizing hammers for a while and occasionally using the whip. You're trading hammers for commerce and/or food, which I'll admit is a tradeoff, but it's not necessarily a bad tradeoff. It's just a decision to go one way instead of another. It's not substantially different than going for Construction quickly instead of founding religions.