ALC Game #7 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Frederick

[futurehermit]

I always play on normal these days, so no worries. I have a pretty good build for getting pyramids w/out industrial and w/out stone.

And, feel free to read my newest thread (Detailed analysis part II) in addition to the ones mentioned. I've got the latest numbers in there.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I had figured that Archery is quicker to research than Bronze Working, and Archers are cheaper to build than Axemen. As such, I was considering delaying Bronze working until I had a rudementary economy rolling. We don't want an early fight if we can avoid it. We'll see what kind of luck we have though. Cyrus and Ceaser have been jerks in prior attempts, and one game marred by power outage saw Monty as my next door neighbour...

 

[Killroyan]

I would love you to see a specialist economy with Frederick. I just lost a game running that but that was mostly of my crummy start with very little resources and no religion untill 400 AD or so (never took that long). My capital was running 5-7 specialist without problems though. I never had so many GP ever in a game. But sadly I was lacking in this specialist economy strategy and I lost the tech race I hope you can do better.

In my game I missed out on the pyramids but did get the oracle (metal casting for Colussus and 4 coastal cties) and stonehenge. Also missed out on the GL on 1 turn, grrrr. Also on the sistine chapel by 3 turns. Terribly dissapointed of course but hung in there but to no avail.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I had figured that Archery is quicker to research than Bronze Working, and Archers are cheaper to build than Axemen. As such, I was considering delaying Bronze working until I had a rudementary economy rolling.

If you aren't going to build axes as escorts, I think Archery while training a scout then BW while training a worker makes a lot of sense.

 

[futurehermit]

In my game I missed out on the pyramids

This is your problem. If you don't get the pyramids, a cottage econ is superior.

Why?

With representation, each scientist gives you 6 beakers/turn. A scientist requires you to work a food tile to support it, so it's 6 beakers/2 pop. Two cottages give 2 coin and grow to 4 coin in a reasonable amount of time. At 100% science this is 4 beakers/2 pop. So, cottages don't become superior until size 4, which takes quite a long time, especially in a newly captured city.

Without representation, a scientist only gives 3 beakers/turn, and 2 cottages are superior at size 2 (4 b/turn @ 100% science), which takes far less time to develop.

Now, of course this assumes you're running @ 100% science, which is not always possible due to maintenance cutting into your $ flow (another benefit of the specialist approach).

Also, cottages on a river are not a better argument for a cottage econ, because a farm on a river also gets that +1 commerce, which gets put towards maintenance costs in the specialist econ.

 

[Murky]

I haven't ever played Frederick but the AI always seems to do well with him. He's usually one of the largest and most advanced civs in my games. He can also be a tough political rival. He will bribe your friends to turn them against you if you don't beat him to the punch.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Choices, choices...

Higher score = Earlier victory [but] Using Panzer = playing long enough to get the unit = lower score.
Go for multiple wonders = GE or stone/marble

Ah, I see pyramid/representation as your preferred direction. That will be fun to watch. I haven't built pyramids since I moved to Monarch (different focus), though I have stolen it early enough to get a new government civic.

 

[carl corey]

I agree with those who said to totally drop the Panzer idea and focus on finishing the game earlier. For the Panzer to have any benefits it would have to fight against tanks. Now why on Sid's Terra would you want to go to war with someone who already has tanks? I'm sure there will be easier targets out there.

Anyway, I'd love to see that specialist with representation strat done. Can't wait for this to start.

 

[futurehermit]

Doesn't the panzer do well against anything other than tanks? I mean it does have +4 strength over a regular tank...

 

[carl corey]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure it has the same strength, though I might be wrong.

---

I just checked the Units tab on this site and it lists it at 28 strength, the same as the tank. Was it modified at some point?

 

[futurehermit]

Well, judging from this:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/leader_picker.html

It says tank has base strength of 24 and panzer has 28.

If that's incorrect, my apologies, that's where I was getting the numbers from.

 

[carl corey]

Yeah, it's wrong. Someone should tell them. The tank most certainly has 28, I thought maybe the Panzer went up to 32 in one of the patches and I missed it.

The only way I'd see a real use for the Panzer would be a late start (I've always started at 4000BC, so it's just speculation) and then you could end up needing to fight equally strong AIs in the modern era.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Well, judging from this:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/leader_picker.html

It says tank has base strength of 24 and panzer has 28.

If that's incorrect, my apologies, that's where I was getting the numbers from.

Looks like a bug in the leader picker. When in doubt, go to the XML ... Civ4UnitInfos.xml lists both tanks and panzers as 28. So does the manual.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure that matters as far as your question goes. "Doesn't the panzer do well against anything other than tanks?" Yes. With a strength of 28 and +50% vs. armored, it does well against pretty much everything except mechanized infantry and gunships. Even modern armor are hardly better than a 50/50 battle against a panzer.

 

[carl corey]

Dr Elmer Jiggle, the thing is, you'd rather not fight mechanized infantry and tanks, so that makes the whole +50% vs. armored bonus pretty useless, right? And at 28 strength, yeah, it can do well against earlier units, but it would be the same as the usual tank. What I'm trying to say with all this is that waiting to use the Panzer won't give you some ground-shaking advantage.

 

[Murky]

I would have to concur on the use of the Panzer. It comes way too late in most games to be all that useful.

If you are going for a military victory, the game should be decided by the time you get to calvary.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Dr Elmer Jiggle, the thing is, you'd rather not fight mechanized infantry and tanks, so that makes the whole +50% vs. armored bonus pretty useless, right? And at 28 strength, yeah, it can do well against earlier units, but it would be the same as the usual tank. What I'm trying to say with all this is that waiting to use the Panzer won't give you some ground-shaking advantage.

Two things:

1) The advantage is that when you start the war and the enemy beelines to Industrialism to get tanks and gets them halfway through the assault, you don't need to go, "Oh, crap, I've lost my advantage." That +50% means you still have an overwhelming military lead until he discovers Rocketry and/or Robotics, which if he just got Industrialism should be a long way off. I'm not saying that you should plan to wait until they get Industrialism just so you can use your panzers, but you should plan to wait until you get it. Keep in mind that this will be a continents game, so conquest by maceman/knight may not be practical.

2) My impression of the ALC is that a big part of the point is to explore the things that make each leader different. If you just want a Philosophical/Creative leader with Hunting and Mining, then play Peter and build Stonehenge. If you play Frederick and try to win before you get panzers, then you've missed out on 1/3rd of what makes him Frederick.

 

[carl corey]

You do have a very good point there about missing out on something, especially in the ALC context. I'm just not sure this strategy - waiting to get Panzers for a late war - is really worth much. Sometimes you just have to count your losses and move on. Ultimately, it's Sisiutil's decision anyway, let's see what he thinks. For me, running a specialist economy is already a big change and it will be made possible by (most probably) forgetting about Stonehenge. Hence my (notice the personal opinion ) problem with the Peter analogy.

 

[Sisiutil]

The Panzer is a very late unit and is pretty much impossible to bee-line. By the time it shows up, at this level, I should be well on the way to a chosen victory condition. Yes, I want to exploit it, but I'm not going to sit back and base my approach to the game upon it.

What I expect will happen is we'll be well into the game with a victory path and strategy chosen when we get close to Industrialism, as usual. How relevant the unit will be to that strategy will determine how much I prioritize and use it.

In a way, the Panzer is similar to the mid-game UUs like the Cossack and the Redcoat. You play most of the game without them and make do with the vanilla units available at the time. The difference is, with Russia or England I usually expect a big mid-game war once I get the UU, and therefore plan for it. Panzers, like SEALs, come so late that it's tough to plan an overall game strategy around them.

Thus, I think the wait-and-see approach will work best.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

The main thing I think panzers influence (if you choose to use them) is your choice of victory condition. That's the point I made originally, and I think it somehow got twisted into a recommendation that you sit back and do nothing until the end of the game just so you can kill a few tanks with a panzer.

My real point was simply that diplomatic and cultural victories probably don't lend themselves to use of the panzer, since you're probably hoping for a fairly peaceful industrial era. Space race could, though a war at that stage of the game might prove to be a distraction from your primary goal. Domination might or might not, depending largely on the size of your initial continent (if your continent is big enough, then you might be able to dominate before the panzer becomes necessary). Conquest, on the other hand, I think is likely to require panzers for the final assault.

 

[pigswill]

If you have a choice between 1700ad victory and panzers then choose 1700ad victory. Otherwise its worth thinking about leveraging panzers.