ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

ugh jet and others hard to keep up when you use specific terms like that.

but seems there is some consensus

pillage the hell outta the arabs, i'd go with 3 little stacks consisting of a phalanx, axemen, and horse archer so they can move and pillage on the same turn. those should cost him dearly if he wants to try to counter attack them, and 9 units isnt much cost to the empire.

meanwhile as long as you have enough army to defend the relevent borders, focus on city growth and settling into those empty spaces.

you're better at picking city specialization so i'm not going to comment there, only to reemphasize that theres a lot of wasted space between sides of the empire.. and should be filled in accordingly

NaZ
 
And while you're pillaging the Arabs back to the stone age, get some Cats up and running, and maybe take out (or just plain take) a city or two if you think you can get away with it...
 
Maybe what you could do is turn london into your cottage SS city, with all those floodplains. waiting for london to be under your control could cost you the GL. Unless your luck holds.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that you should avoid cottaging the tiles 1 square SE of Athens and 2 S of Athens, save those for farms
 
Praise the lord for taking out China that fast with so little units. Wish I would be so lucky. Good job on that especially with the great lighthouse as a bonus. NICE :)

I do believe that rushing courthouses in Beijing and shangai are priorities right now with their high upkeepcosts (or did you already do that?). Pillage war against saladin sounds about right, but maybe wait for the alphabet before going to war so you have a good chance of trading iron work with him and then pillage him back to the stone age. After that get set on machinery and CS and you won't have a lot of problems with England with your macemen.

GOGOGOGOGOGO!!!
 
Krikkitone said:
Bejing 3S 2 W would make an OK city, but not a Good Scientist city as some of its best tiles (floodplains) overlap with Bejing (I would try and settle somewhere to get that wheat-fish combo though, it makes a nice Whip/Fishing Village, it can work any Floodplains cottages Bejing is not, otherwise it just works the sea)

I don't think the Health bonus is really that important nor is the total size of the city. If we are planning on Winning Fast how much it can support at pop 15+ is irrelevant.
I don't think there's any better spot north of the jungle. The high food surplus should make it best at all sizes because it enables the city to whip buildings, run scientists, grow, and work cottages faster than any other site.

I think the harm from the the overlap with Beijing is very small. Beijing still has enough food to work all resources/cottages/coast except for one plains tile.
 
Alternative possibility:

Switch to Representation + OR. Set up specialists where possible.
Lightbulb Machinery. You'll probably miss out on Parthenon then but I think it's no more than a nice-to-have.
Research Construction while building CR axes and Drill crossbowmen. Why drill? Simply because you'll have to build less of them due to higher survival rate (they're not really cheap after all). Throw in a few chariots for fogbusting perhaps pillaging on the side, preferably in the former Chinese cities as they're lightyears from the common front with Sal anyhow.
Start cats on as soon as Construction is in. Beeline for Literature next.
In the mean time, settle crab/silver/marble city in the NW and science city. The former's really just for the marble, the main advantage being you merely need to quarry it to gain access since it's next to a river already connected to your trade network.
Once Literature's in, rush GLib with your second GE and feel free to plop down a now cheap (thanks to marble) HE somewhere.
For NE I'd wait until after attacking Sal because there's a neat GP farm spot 2 SE of Mecca (banana, rice and cow, and optionally another banana to take away from Mecca... it has plenty of rivers too) Moreover, that spot isn't 'polluted' with wonder GP points yet.
I'd attack Sal as soon as GLib's built because it'll allow for decent research rate even with increased maintenance from his cities.

London's a no-no at this point to me. Far too remote; keeping it will cripple your economy even with specialists. Moreover, you'd have Sal sitting right in the middle of your territory, no good either. Lastly, it'd take ages to get there.

Sal's a better target, if only because he has the most attractive resources. I wouldn't attack him right away though: with some luck he might research Iron Working and Calendar, which you both still need and could trade for. Also, he might chop some of that jungle for you in the mean time.
And pillaging war? Hmm. I doubt he'll become a threat even if you give him some time. With axes, crossbows and cats you should be able to take him easily even if allowing him to consolidate his position for a while. On the other hand you only have chariots for pillaging for now and they fare only moderately well by themselves against axes from what I've seen. Deviating research to HB doesn't tempt me either.
I'm more for building up a bit now, then finishing Sal off in one swift stroke and moving right on towards Vicky. If all goes well you should have Macemen too by then.
 
did you think of settling the GE?
under representation, it's not a bad deal for a science city...
This way you don't need to pop rush too much there, + you have free beakers.
Alternatively, you could select your top hammer city and put it there. HE will come just as fast as the GL, and one super engineer makes a lot of difference in your HE city.
 
Bah, that all sounds nice, but the Parthenon is there for the taking. You'll be feeling the positive effects of that baby all the way to Chemistry. People don't end up building it because it sucks, but because its really expensive and comes around(even if you have marble) when you really should be going to war or at least building up. You'll get more of everything. Seems a worthy sacrifice of a GE, seeing as the GL is cheap with marble...
 
Lance of Llanwy said:
Bah, that all sounds nice, but the Parthenon is there for the taking. You'll be feeling the positive effects of that baby all the way to Chemistry. People don't end up building it because it sucks, but because its really expensive and comes around(even if you have marble) when you really should be going to war or at least building up. You'll get more of everything. Seems a worthy sacrifice of a GE, seeing as the GL is cheap with marble...

well for a philo leader it's just not worth much...
 
cabert said:
well for a philo leader it's just not worth much...
I disagree. In the Mao ALC game I had GPs coming out of my ears, and having the Parthenon was part of that. As the game grinds on and GPs get more expensive, the Parthenon works with the trait to keep them a little cheaper than they would otherwise be.

(Frankly, the only time I've ever managed to build the Parthenon is with a Philosophical leader! I usually manage to get a GE early on thanks to the trait and something like the Pyramids or a MC Slingshot, and then used the GE on the wonder.)

I'm a firm believer in looking for ways to max out a leader's traits, not sit back and rely upon them. This is why I do a MC-slingshot for any Industrial leader, for example, or war and conquer as early as possible with an Organized one, or, of course, cottage like crazy if I'm Financial.

As for Saladin, I don't usually fight pillage wars, so this should be interesting. But the game conditions seem to be calling for some pointy-stick research, so off the mini-stack goes. NaZdReG, I'll probably use Chariots rather than Horse Archers since I don't have HBR, never research it, and rarely trade for it. Chariots are cheaper and serve their purpose of moving with the Axe/Spear (which provide the protection), then pillaging in the same turn.
 
A pillage war rocks! Looks like you are heading to Parthenon with GE to speed up the GS bonuses, attack the GL with marble. You have a silver mine. Spread your religion for the shrine? Looks like you are doing it all... I like. It'll be fun to watch.
 
Well, it shouldn't be fully pillaging. Don't forget the marble city...Medina, right? Take that and pillage him to the stone age.

And the Parthenon is enhanced by being Philosophical, IMO. In fact, I'd wager it has a little to do with there being no Ind/Phi. It would simply to easy to get it(and early!) and the effect would be insane. Throw in the fact its usually around long enough to built with the aid of forges, and you've got a single wonder that provides you with a veritable flood of GPs for very few hammers...
 
Medina has Walls, It'd be easier to get CrabMarbleSilver city with a Settler

The fact is Parthenon is not as good for a Philosophical leader as anon-Philosophical Leader.

HOWEVER, the Parthenon is better for a Specialist Strategy than a Non-Specialist Strategy, and a Philosophical leader is more likely to go for a Specialist Strategy.
 
Round 4: to 1030 AD

His resolve is not to seem, but to be, the best.
- Aeschylus

ALCAlex1030AD_01.jpg


So I want all the Great People I can get. If that makes me greedy, then I don't want to be unselfish.

I decided to keep researching towards Literature; along with everything else we discussed, the kicker was that the longer I put off the Great Library, the more expensive those Great Scientists were going to get. Towards that end, I finally founded the science city:

ALCAlex1030AD_02.jpg


Its first build was a library, and I'm farming the floodplains to maximize the specialists I can run. I chopped those 2 forests and when I got close enough and had enough pop, whipped to finish the library.

I did a little horse-trading--literally--with Victoria, as some of you urged. I'm hoping I won't regret that; I tend to doubt it.

Once I had Alphabet, I went shopping:

ALCAlex1030AD_03.jpg


Not a bad haul! I also obtained Calendar from Saladin, also for MC.

I don't mind trading away Metal Casting. I'm coming to prefer it to Code of Laws as the Oracle tech for that option alone. I find if I trade away CoL, the recipient of my largesse will inevitably beat me to Philosophy and Taoism. But Metal Casting doesn't yeild quite the same advantages. Consider: forges are expensive. If the AI is building them, it's not building units. The Colossus, while nice, is not exactly a must-have wonder. And Machinery is of limited value without Civil Service for Macemen. All told, I don't consider myself to be trading away as much of an advantage as I am with CoL.

Anyway, with my tech trading done, I felt it was time to start doing a little pointy-stick research, even though my economy, as you can see, is somewhat improved. My target was my nearest neighbour, of course:

ALCAlex1030AD_04.jpg


This was the start of something of a "phony war". I think Saladin has sent a grand total of one Swordsman at me. I put together a Medic I/March Phalanx, my best Axe (Combat II, Shock, Cover), and a Flanking I Chariot to go do a little pillaging. I took out most of the improvements around Medina with impunity, then went south along the cost to worry Mecca. I decided to haul tail back to my own territory when Saladin finally grew a couple and sent a stack of 4 Catapults my way.

During this time, some other important developments occurred. I still didn't have marble, so my next GE from Athens got used as planned:

ALCAlex1030AD_05.jpg


And shortly after that (to ensure Corinth had a lead on GP production), Beijing finished its 2nd wonder:

ALCAlex1030AD_06.jpg


I'm not sure how ships are gonna make it in and out of the harbour with those two wonders in the way, but whatever. I'll probably get a Great Merchant out of this later in the game. I'll probably see if I can manipulate that right when a trade mission's cash infusion would allow me to upgrade a whole whack of my veterans.

With the wonders complete, Construction researched, and a decent army built, I decided it was high time for a civics change. I researched Monotheism (2 turns) to further justify the change and amplify its benefits:

ALCAlex1030AD_07.jpg


Organized Religion, of course, is for faster buildings; and Representation is great since I now have most of my cities running at least one specialist (scientists, mostly). Corinth is running two specialists and slowly building the National Epic. (I really need some marble...)

Meanwhile, my next Great Person was a Great Prophet out of Sparta. Since I was researching Currency, I was clearly in a monetary state of mind, so I used him for the Confucian Shrine:

ALCAlex1030AD_08.jpg


I should also mention that Iron showed up in the tundra at the northern edge of Shanghai's fat cross. It's a pity, but with 2 low-food resources and so much tundra, Shanghai is just not going to run specialists until maybe Biology. So I'm going the cottage route around the city.

Then my first Great Scientist appeared. This is usually a dilemma for me: get the Academy in place in the science city, or snag Philosophy for another religion, a head start on the later Liberalism race, and the option of building Ankor Wat?

Well, that's just too much fun to pass up, isn't it?

ALCAlex1030AD_09.jpg


Again, reflecting on the game in a larger sense--if I can't found Taoism, I'll often just build the Academy. I can't help wondering if the AI reacts the same way--that getting beaten to a religion-founding tech takes some of the shine off of it. That would certainly enhance your chances in the Liberalism race: you not only get Philosophy early, you dissuade the AI from also researching it.

And I'm still wonder-crazy! In Athens, I went for another GE-generating wonder:

ALCAlex1030AD_10.jpg


Over time, as a wonder, the Hanging Gardens are growing on me. (Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.) The AI usually doesn't build the HG, making them low-hanging fruit; they provide a handy health bonus to a non-Expansive civ; and the population boost is very flexible. It can be used for whipping if you get the HG early; in my case, I need more people to work the cottages and other tiles, and/or to serve as specialists. It strikes me then that the HG must be an even bigger boon to a pure specialist economy. I'm still running slavery, but I'm not using it very often. Like I said, I need the tiles to be worked.

Ah, yes--I got construction several turns back. What of that? Well, I had to build several Catapults, and move them into position. Get this: I took out Medina's defenses, then attacked its three Archer defenders with three Catapults. All three Cats survived! That's the first time I've taken a city entirely with Catapults. Behold the mighty Greek Catapult rush!

ALCAlex1030AD_11.jpg


So the war with Saladin has begun in earnest. I offered the poor sap a peace treaty when I was done pillaging, but he won't part with any of his techs. Foolish. So the war went on, albeit coldly and quietly, until I could turn up the heat.

I have Civil Service--I switched to Bureaucracy--and I'm working on Machinery, so I'll have Macemen very soon. Meanwhile, back home, I'm working on Markets, then it's back to units.

A look at the map:

ALCAlex1030AD_12.jpg


So the road for the next few turns is a little clearer: keep taking Arabian cities, pausing to see if Saladin will give up some of his juicy techs like Compass.

Speaking of techs, after I have Machinery I think Engineering would be wise for the movement bonuses. Then I'd like to look into Optics for the Circumnavigation bonus and to find my other victims. Bwa-ha-ha.

I have fog-busters up in the north now, so barbs aren't really a problem anymore. Research is firmly hovering around the 50-70% range depending on how many units I have in the field. I'll have to rebuild the quarry I pillaged way back outside Medina (hey, Saladin had Literature before me, okay?); once that's done, Iceburg is a much lower priority. I'm thinking of founding a city 3S 2W of Beijing. Yeah, it's out in the desert, but it will have iron, wheat, and fish, so it'll be a decent little fishing village. Working the fish will also let me glean a little more of the benefits of the Colossus.

Whaddya think?
 
Sisiutil said:
once that's done, Iceburg is a much lower priority

Much lower. Iceberg was going to get you marble, silver, and crabs. Now you already have marble and silver, and although I haven't opened the save, I'm guessing health isn't a problem for you. I count about 6 health resources, including all 3 grains, plus The Hanging Gardens. Fish should be on the way shortly, and that should more than cover your health needs for a while.
 
Sounds good, Iceburg and Cowfish are the Last cities that can truly be said to be 'Good' in your home territory, the only other one is a Horses/Silk. And Cow Fish is Better, but I'd get Iceburg anyways, its a worthwhile investment for the Silver Commerce (as the English will settle there anyways if you don't)

An Idea, after you're back to making units, and have the Epic in Corinth, you could Really pump up the GPs with Pacifism... run 2 Scientists in Athens, Bejing, Thermopylae [and Corinth]
[The GPP per turn would be 21 Thermopylae, 35 Bejing, 42 Athens and 67 in Corinth... Athens would be 60% Engineer, and Bejing 50% Merchant, but those are OK Great Persons
a new GE could lightbulb Engineering/Feudalism/Guilds or Hagia Sophia or ...HS might be useful with the Arabian Jungle coming up, and would keep you in a Wonder rush.
a new Merchant would lightbulb Paper or Guilds.. or a Trade Mission to London would give ~1000-1500 gold, enough to Research whatever you want/upgrade.

The fact is even with a decent sized Army, Pacifism will probably be Cheaper than OR, and you probably won't have that Many units anyways. (Quality over Quantity)

PS what city is Getting Heroic Epic? I'd suggest Sparta if the decision hasn't been made yet... it has decent production tiles, and it looks like it has the Hammer right now [plus its lousy for anything else, for commerce the best it has are 2 Silks].. just remember to chain the Wheat.

As for Techs.... there's a few different paths after you have Machinery

Engineering->better Roads, for a quicker war
Optics->Circumnavigation, contact for trade
Education->Liberalism (and Cheap universities plus Oxford)

I think that Order is good. Engineering+Optics are each about 1000 flasks from Machinery, Education is about 2400 flasks

Engineering and Optics are also Wartime Techs, there are minimal buildings unlocked, and so you can continue to pour out Mace-Cat combos from your cities.

By the time you get Education, you Should have unified the Continent, and can get yourself Universities and Oxford (to go to 5 in Corinth) and then Liberalism, to get Astronomy to make your new 'Friends' see the light.

I think Engineering is definitely the best because you have a significant military advantage, you want to push it as fast as possible. (the only problem is it will make your Phalanxes much more expensive and not much more effective)
 
All in favor of lightbulbing a lot of techs especially if you have pacifism also. GP will come out of your ears with so many wonders. This will put you in the tech lead so far it won't be funny anymore. Well actually it will be funny because England will soon feel the combined power of MACCATS troops :p Saladin is already toast from what I can tell. Science city looks very powerfull already. 350% GP points with National Epic (all scientists). Get those Acadamies in place. 1 for Corinth and propably 1 for Athens. It is looking very good. Optics and engineering are techs the AI prefers so you can propably trade them anyway so you might start to think about education -> liberalism and maybe even snag the great merchant from currency. Another option is to merge great merchants with the science city so you can even support more specialists as they provide 1 food.

Keep it going. It is looking incredibly good so far.
 
Sisiutil said:
Iceburg is a much lower priority.

nothing to do with the gameplay (I'm not expert enough:( ) :

I think Iceburg is funnier than Iceberg :lol:

the joke is better that way IMO

(I've a question for english-speaking people: is the pronunciation of the two identical, quite identical or not at all? : quite hard for a french guy to really understand how english people say each thing...:crazyeye: )

oh : I love this thread... :) (the 1st of the ALC that I'm following).. I will start to read the others :mischief:
 
Good game sisiutil :goodjob:

This pillage then conquest war looks like a "slow rush" . You even managed a surprise attack after a few hundred years of war :lol:.

About the cat kills archer thing, it's not uncommon at all. If your first cat kills his opponent, the odds start climbing high, from the collateral damage.
I usually do stacks of overwhelming numbers of cats and just a handfull of melee for nutcracking (top defender!), +anti melee +anti mounted. In most situations (= no river crossing, not on a hill, no level 4 archer), my catapults take the cities without any help (other than defending the stack, then the city).
With something like 8 catapults, 2 mace, 1 elephant and/or 1 spear/phalanx, and 2 new cats after each city you can storm archers with ease. When longbowmen show their ugly noses, the deal isn't as good = You need 3/4 new cats after each city :lol:.

About engineering, maybe you should spam phalanxes before you get it? I would say you need 2 phalanxes /stack (i usually go with 2 stacks on home continent, don't know if it's enough/ too much here) + 2/3 for home defense.
3 movement phalanxes beats 2 movement HA/knight, so that should be enough = not too expensive.
Pikemen are more expansive, and don't do better. If you want 35 hammers phalanxes over 60 hammers pikes, you can also make it so you have copper and no iron, but that's tricky if you want swords or crossbowmen.

About parthenon (and even more so with pacifism by the way) : giving all cities a push towards GPP make the national epic not too overwhelming, so you'll pop GP all around the place (+350 % isn't massively superior to +250%, only about 1/4 faster, whereas +200% is 1/2 ahead of +100%).
It can be a good thing, allowing you to waste less GPP.
The "bad" thing is you can't avoid prophets, merchants and engineers, unless you push your GP farm very hard.
Meaning you'll get more GP faster, but not more scientists (probably even less).
I have the feeling you don't cry when you get a great engineer, so it shouldn't be a problem :goodjob:
(wow, what a long post for saying goodjob :()
 
Back
Top Bottom