ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

My understanding of the unit in build queue idea was that you stacked these up while waiting for stone to be connected. Once you'd got stone hooked you'd whip the first unit, using overflow on pyramids (hopefully with stone bonus), put a few turns into pyramids while recovering pop and some happy, then whip the next unit, rinse and repeat.
 
In any case, I feel that Chopping (Athens) is the best way to ensure the Pyramids. As long as the Oracle is built in Sparta (if at all) and the GL in Red City (easy enough with an Engineer, and a whipped Library) then there will be no purity issues.

Sparta is bad for Whipping because its Wheat and Cow are Plains tiles. The occasional whip might be OK.

PS don't think a Library would really be useful yet, right now is "gear up phase" hammer+food -> Wonders/Army. Once the Chinese are eliminated, go for the Science specialists, until then, get Priesthood (if you want try for the Oracle) and Pottery Then start on Writing. (for Science Specialists and the GLibrary)
 
Round 2: to 600 BC

What a difference 1000 years makes.

The round started with me attempting to implement as much of the advice I've been given as I could. I decided to stick with the Pyramids in Athens after all, especially since I'd already started them there. I also sent my lone Warrior eastwards in hopes of snagging a Worker from Mao. Look what he found instead:

ALCAlex600BC_01.jpg


My Scouts also confirmed that the AI is aggressively expanding while I build units and wonders. Normally I'd be worried, but since I'm playing as Aggressive Alex, I just think it's terribly nice of them to build all those lovely little cities for me.

Mao's Settler and Archer companion were headed for our next city site, however--the red site, destined to be our GL/science city, or at least in that vicinity. Now I could leave the city and take it later, then keep or raze it, depending on its location. OR I could attack him now and stifle him.

Let the dice fly high, as Caesar would have said. I declared war and attacked.

The Warrior was free anyway, popped from a hut. He had a very slim chance of beating the Archer, even though the latter was unpromoted and unfortified on open ground. But he managed to weaken the Settler's protector (down to 2 strength). Meanwhile, I sent Athens' Axeman out in that direction, and adjusted the build queue in Athens:

ALCAlex600BC_02.jpg


The whip cracked and I had two more Axes. I'm probably not doing this optimally; I certainly didn't queue up units in Athens as several of you suggested. But an opportunity arose and I decided to seize it, or at least make of it what I could.

My Axe got to the new Chinese city of Guangzhou on the turn after it was founded:

ALCAlex600BC_03.jpg


The Archer was still weakened from his fight with our Warrior, but look at that! A Chariot! I checked the map; Mao must have horses in Beijing's fat cross, somewhere in the unrevealed fog around it. Well, that just makes it a richer prize for the taking, doesn't it? But it also means I'll definitely need a Phalanx or two; in fact, as soon as I saw the Chariot, I changed the build queue in Sparta to get a Phalanx out the door ASAP.

Still feeling like fortune's favourite, I had my Axe attack and auto-raze Guangzhou, especially since I didn't like its location, taking up tiles best distributed between two cities, as per sigmakan's dot map. I half-expected to lose him to the chariot on the next turn, since he was down to 1.5 strength.

But in a typically-strange set of moves, the AI-driven Mao did not attack the Axe on the very next turn, when the latter was weak and on open ground. No, Mao waited a turn, until after I had both promoted the Axe (Combat II) to recover some of its strength, and moved it into defensive terrain (the forest tile NE of the former city). Of course he lost his Chariot. Fortune does indeed favour the brave.

A short time later, Sparta's borders popped, and I had my lone worker in position atop the stone:

ALCAlex600BC_04.jpg


As you can see, the Pyramids had 62 turns to go at that point, but of course, that wasn't helped by my whipping away 2 pop for Axes. Still, Athens has plenty of food available, so it recovered the population quickly. Since we were talking about not even working on the Pyramids until after the stone was hooked up, I thought I'd be okay. Especially since I was playing with my toes and fingers crossed, my lucky rabbit's foot ensconsed in my pocket...

As you can see, I was researching towards the Oracle. Once I had Priesthood, I began building that wonder in Sparta. (I should also mention that someone else beat me to Stonehenge) Now, with all this wonder-building and unit-whipping, I still only had one Worker, and the time was fast approaching when I would have to turn from improving tiles to chop-rushing. Who should come to my rescue but our friend Mao, as he sent another Settler my way--with two Archers this time, and a Warrior nearby too. For all the good it did him, since I had one of my whipped Axes (with Combat I/CRI) lying in wait in the woods nearby:

ALCAlex600BC_05.jpg


After that Axe took out the first Archer, I gave him that Cover promotion you see here. So he now has the unusual combination of Combat I, City Raider I, and Cover. But under the circumstances, it made sense. End result: a free worker, and Mao is still stifled:

ALCAlex600BC_06.jpg


Yes, he made it to Athens' fat cross, successfully evading that Chinese Warrior. Two moves to one is a wonderful thing.

I started researching Mathematics next--I was thinking better chops (I still have some forests left for both cities!) as well as Catapults.

Shortly thereafter Athens, after getting the quarry going and now two workers chopping...

Drum roll please...

ALCAlex600BC_07.jpg


YEAH, BABY, YEAH!!!

Now I did NOT change to Police State right away, in fact, by the end of the round, I still haven't. Remember I was building the Oracle in Sparta, and didn't want to lose a building turn to Anarchy.

Nonetheless, the time for that civic is fast approaching. Mao sent some Warriors my way to harrass me:

ALCAlex600BC_08.jpg


Heh. Free XPs for my Axes. Thanks, Mao! My Combat I/Medic I Phalanx also eaned his second promotion (March) thanks to a barb Warrior he encountered on the way to Shanghai.

Thanks to a couple of chops, in 600 BC, where this round ends...

ALCAlex600BC_09.jpg


PHEW!! What a relief. I took Metal Casting, with the idea of building a Forge in Athens to run an Engineer specialist, as well as getting Macemen that much earlier.

So here is what my two cities look like in 600 BC:

ALCAlex600BC_10.jpg


So one more Axe and then Athens starts on the Forge. I whipped a couple of Axes as soon as the Pyramids finished, so Athens has 2 more turns of whip-induced grumpiness left. Perfect timing; on the following turn, I can whip the Axe and have the overflow go into the Forge.

ALCAlex600BC_11.jpg


Now that the early wonders are done, it's time to start expanding again. Most of that will be done at the expense of my neighbours, of course, but I want to get the red (science) city near the floodplains built.

My army currently consists of the following units:

  • C1/Shock Axe - fortified in Athens
  • C1/Shock Axe - fortified in Sparta
  • C1/CR2 Axe, C2/Shock Axe - In Athens' fat cross
  • C1/C1 Axe - half-way to Shanghai
  • C2/Shock Axe, C1/CR2 Axe, C1/Medic/March Phalanx - fortified outside Shanghai
  • C1/? Axe - being built in Athens

I'm thinking that the C2/Shock Axe near Athens will head over to the red city site to become that city's first protector. The Axe being built in Athens will get a CR promotion and head east to China, following the other two CR Axes. The CR Axe who is halfway to Shanghai is in a forested tile and has spotted a barb Axe coming his way, so I'm thinking of fortifying him there in the hopes that the Barb Axe will attack him, lose, and earn my boy his CR2 promotion.

I lost one Scout to a Barbarian. The other two are fog-busting, one in the north, the other to the southeast, and they've acted as distant-early-warning systems for Mao's forces, too.

Here's a look at the map:

ALCAlex600BC_12.jpg


So I await your thoughts. Here are the discussion points I've thought of, but if you have others, by all means raise them:

  • With the Pyramids built, we're set for a hybrid economy of specialists and cottages. How best to achieve that? Looking at sigmakan's dot map (and beyond it, as most of the map is now revealed), which cities should have predominantly cottages, which farms and specialists?
  • Do my next couple of builds make sense? Do I have enough units for now, or should I get some more out before starting on the forge in Athens and the Settler in Sparta? How many? Of which types?
  • Related to that: Now that the Oracle is finished, I can change civics. Police State makes the most sense. Again, should I change civics, build more units, and then do some civilian builds? Or finish the Settler and Forge first?
  • I would really appreciate some advice on upcoming research paths. I have to decide between Code of Laws (to help defray the costs of the cities I plan to soon take from Mao) or Alphabet (towards Polytheism, maybe via a trade, then Literature and the Great Library) next. Or should I keep going on the war path tech-wise as well, and get Masonry/Construction?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts, as always!
 
Well a few ideas.... Specialist generation could be from
1. Floodplains
2. Food bonuses
Don't farm anything else.. just run random Scientists off of cities with a good amount of excess food.

Techwise...Go for CoL first Then Literature. (I wouldn't plan on extorting anything from Mao... just crush him fast, so you won't need Construction... try and make Saladin your Temporary best friend/trading partner (make sure to adopt His religion... since he will have one)

Civic wise... I'd get the Forge+Settler first and Then go to Police State. You seem to have a decent Army for Mao's secondary cities

As for what to do with your G.E. I'd say use one to rush the GL and the other to Rush Machinery (after that make sure it is Scientists all the way.)

Ater Literature, Research Macemen (Civil Service*), and Cats(Construction), and prepare to hit Saladin. (who should have a nice shrine for you by then)

*Machinery should be Popped

After that you don't really need any tech so you can go to Full Specialist Economy (ie 100% Gold from Commerce)
 
Interesting, Krikkitone--I think I've been playing with a hybrid economy strategy for a long time, I'm just refining it in this game.

I agree on CoL next (I might even found Confucianism if my luck holds--though I'll try to adopt Saladin's religion, as you suggest). After that, Alphabet--I'd like to see if I can trade for Polytheism rather than researching it.

And a good point about the GE, though I can see later in the game, when I'd like a GE to come along, that I might be running that specialist to try to get one rather than a scientist again. I doubt that I'll manage it, but I remember in the Mao game I had a GE appear just in time to snag me the Parthenon, which I otherwise almost never manage to build. I had GP coming out of my ears in that game as a result!

Sidebar: Doc EJ has urged me to mention, in case all of you ALC contributors and lurkers have missed it, that I have a thread with a poll on future ALCs--whether they should be on Warlords (which I haven't bought yet). You can find it HERE. The Warlords proponents are currently leading by a wide margin.
 
I cannot BELIEVE that you got BOTH pyramids AND oracle at around 600 BC :o :o :o :0 :0 :0 :O :O :O !!!

In terms of mixed econ--which I now think is a good way to go--your best bet is to run 2 scientists in each city and then specialize as normal (commerce, production, etc.). You should have 1 super science city with GL (use your GE on it...hopefully you'll get a GE and not a comparatively sucky GP). Bump up to 3 scientists per city with caste system once you hit banking and go back to slavery when you hit astronomy (unless you go SoL to go up to 4 scientists per city in which case you might want to keep caste system...I really wish there were more scientist buildings)
 
lol lucky your not playing warlords or your axes would of been target pratice to those Chariots ... I always forget Chariots have an advantage over axes when I Play Warlords :S
 
kniteowl said:
lol lucky your not playing warlords or your axes would of been target pratice to those Chariots ... I always forget Chariots have an advantage over axes when I Play Warlords :S

I looked at the screenshot and thought "OH !@#$" to myself until i realized this wasn't warlords.
 
futurehermit said:
I cannot BELIEVE that you got BOTH pyramids AND oracle at around 600 BC :o :o :o :0 :0 :0 :O :O :O !!!

Sisiutil scoring wonders is akin to Jimmy Thudpucker collecting stamps. "Gee, that was fun, I think I'll do Bolivia now".
 
I'm with Betafor on the Chariot thing. Still wise to have Spearmen with your stack of death when you remove the Chinese from the game...
 
Re tech path.

Research CoL while your forces march towards Beijing. That tech will be useful in any case and when you see the full extent of Mao's forces, you can decide whether catapults are needed.

Also, don't capture other Chinese cities than perhaps Beijing. The other AIs are far away and you can block off your part of the continent if you build your next city east of Sparta. That city would get rice, horses and cows so it wouldn't be total junk either. Then you can backfill at your leisure.
 
one comment : if you want your specialists to give you something worthwhile, switch to representation fast (= right now!)+ you need the happiness (no gold! no silver! no gems! = no happiness from forges)
 
Police state right now is not bad. Both cities need to grow a bit and churn out units. Best served by police state. After that switch to representation to get the hybrid economy going. Good job on crippling Mao. This is something I neglect way too much at start. Taking out 2 settlers is just plain great. Normally when I loose 1 settler I already want to throw in the towel but loosing 2.......OUCH. I do think CoL is the better tech especially with Beijing being captured.

P.s. if you are going to switch to warlords make sure you give a call because it will propably be posted in the other forum and I am learning way too much from these threads.
 
Happiness:

Check the map: Shanghai has silver in its fat cross. I'll be taking and keeping it in addition to Beijing. I'm pretty sure those are Mao's only two cities.

Also, there are gems just a little southwest (2S, 1W) of Sparta. Thanks to the Oracle, that city's next border pop should happen soon, and it looks like the third ring will claim them. The danger there is, of course, that Saladin may found a city closer to them, but he'll have something of a culture-border fight on his hands. And I'm going after him next anyway.

Military:

Regarding the Chariot, the Axe, and Warlords, good point. I'll have to be careful when I get the expansion pack. Like a lot of vanilla players, I'm used to Axemen fearing nothing in the early game. Don't worry, I have one Phalanx with my nascent stack now and I will build several more. They are Alexander's UU, after all.

On Phalanxes, as I thought about them, a couple more of their advantages occurred to me. First off, when I take an enemy city, I usually leave my Combat I/Medic I Spear there with the units that need to heal. I think the Phalanx, with its extra strength point, could serve as the captured city's lone defender for awhile, something I rarely do with Spears. Also, that 5 strength means the upgrade to Pikemen is much less urgent. I would assume that's not necessary unless I'm facing a lot of Knights.

Research:

Sounds like the consensus is for CoL next. I agree. I'll cross my fingers and hope to found Confucianism, though even without it, the tech is very valuable and worthwhile for a number of reasons.

Expansion:

I like stuge's idea of sealing off the northeast portion of the continent by placing a city in the southeast. Since that area was still in fog when sigmakan made his excellent dot map, we have no plan for it. Just glancing at the map, the coastal tile 1 SE of the horses holds appeal--horses, rice, more gems, coastal access, and several grassland tiles. It misses the cows to the north, but with all that desert, they'll be difficult to include in any city's fat cross. Should this be the next city, allowing me to backfill, or should the science city on the floodplains come next? Either way, I think one will have to quickly follow the other.

Miscellaneous:

VoiceofUnreason said:
Sisiutil scoring wonders is akin to Jimmy Thudpucker collecting stamps. "Gee, that was fun, I think I'll do Bolivia now".
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, you should take a bow too, along with all the other ALC contributors. If I've gotten adept at this (among other things), it's very much thanks to the awesome power of the group mind.

That being said, this is why the next ALC game will be on Monarch. I'm playing an off-line game as Rome on Prince/Continents/Epic and it's making Prince feel like Settler level. I should be ashamed of myself, I really should, but I have an ulterior motive for that which I'll reveal later...
 
you may want to start on the science city first, IMO. you're losing $ at 100% and don't really have a whole lot in the bank. Taking Mao's cities will be of further detriment to your gold, until courthouses.
 
I think you should found the southeast city first. With the gems and being on the coast, it'll be bringing in a pretty penny fairly quickly, and let's you fill in the rest of the northern lands as your economy allows. Both that and the science city should be founded fairly quickly as both will be very profitable cities fairly quickly, it is just that the SE site is more urgent..
 
Guangzhou's ruins are no longer floodplains, but Desert bordering a river. Building a city permanantly removes any overlays (forest/jungle/floodplains), otherwise founding on floodplains would give you a city with a 3:food" core.

Whether this affects will affect the settlement plans, I don't know, but that tile is now permanently ruined by the cursed chinese, fit only for...another city?

That's the question. Do you want to build a city on that spot so as to make the most of it (the chinese thought that was a good idea), or do you want to just write it off as a loss and continue standard settlement patterns?
 
One thought on the Hybrid economy, I would not use Caste System, the benfits of slavery are significant, and 2 Specialists can usually easily be supported with any food bonus... 3 specialists begins straining the city. I can Only see Caste System as useful for the super science city itself. And I don't think that is enough gain. (also it would take a turn of Anarchy to adopt, not worth it.)
 
Krikkitone said:
One thought on the Hybrid economy, I would not use Caste System

I find myself questioning whether it's even possible to use Caste System in a hybrid economy. Seems to me that if you're running enough specialists to need Caste System, then that's a specialist economy. The hybrid is based on the idea that you allow yourself to work cottages when possible.

I can Only see Caste System as useful for the super science city itself

And assuming you get The Great Library, you'll already be able to run 4 specialists in the super science city. That's probably about all you can support food-wise in most early to mid-game cities.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
I find myself questioning whether it's even possible to use Caste System in a hybrid economy. Seems to me that if you're running enough specialists to need Caste System, then that's a specialist economy. The hybrid is based on the idea that you allow yourself to work cottages when possible.



And assuming you get The Great Library, you'll already be able to run 4 specialists in the super science city. That's probably about all you can support food-wise in most early to mid-game cities.

agreed on all counts - the hybrid won't be 50% 50%, more like 1 super city of each type and cottages where applicable(grassland) and specialists where applicable(food recource/floodplain)
 
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