Alexander's Conquests development thread

[Virote_Considon]

1. You can't have 50% commerce/research/luxuries. It would have to be 50%.
2. Unless wales are on land, posideon won't work. Instead, just make it a "coastal instalation".

I really have no clue which to get rid of, though, so don't get rid of ANY

Indian:
Great Stuppa (GW): +2 in every city, contiental mood effects.
The Ramayana (SP?)(SW): Greater chance of leader appearence.
Mandir: (Flavour temple, maybe req. temple, +3 ?)
Stupa: (Another flavour temple. Maybe req. temple, +1 and 50% research?)

And I think you should go for your final idea!

 

[Keroro]

1. You can't have 50% commerce/research/luxuries. It would have to be 50%.
2. Unless wales are on land, posideon won't work. Instead, just make it a "coastal instalation".

I assume that you mean that I can't have 25% commerce/research/luxuries. And in that case alas, you are right. You're also right about the whales (I just tested this one) - you need the resource in the strategic resource box as well as in the city radius to build the temple. I will change the previous post to reflect that. The fact that I did research on the temples at work (without the editor to refer to) is showing pretty clearly.

I really have no clue which to get rid of, though, so don't get rid of ANY

Gonna take ages to get all those buildings into the editor.

Indian:
Great Stuppa (GW): +2 in every city, contiental mood effects.
The Ramayana (SP?)(SW): Greater chance of leader appearence.
Mandir: (Flavour temple, maybe req. temple, +3 ?)
Stupa: (Another flavour temple. Maybe req. temple, +1 and 50% research?)

Thanks for this, I think they're pretty good ideas. I'll play around with them a bit to suit the scenario though, then add them to the previous post. Only problem is with the Great Stupa - the one at Sanchi was constructed by Asoka, who was the grandson of Chandragupta, who is Alexander's main Indian enemy in the scenario. So it's a bit too late for the timescale. The Ramayana led me to another idea though, the Mahabharata. I also looked into the Jainist tradition and found that their temples are called Derasar.

And I think you should go for your final idea!

Cheers, it seemed a bit simpler than relying on the AI to upgrade units at the right time.

 

[Blue Monkey]

...I could do with some info on Indian religion at the time D Blue, if you're out there?), AFAIK it was pretty much Hindu, though Buddhism was on the rise. What would be the most important temples of the area to represent in a scenario like this. ...

...Indian:
Great Stuppa (GW): +2 in every city, contiental mood effects.
The Ramayana (SP?)(SW): Greater chance of leader appearence.
Mandir: (Flavour temple, maybe req. temple, +3 ?)
Stupa: (Another flavour temple. Maybe req. temple, +1 and 50% research?)...

Here's a start on images of the Great Stupa (primary site of Buddha's relics) located at Sanchi. Stupas are all over the place and are the Buddhist equivalent of saints' tombs. Yoda Power made a stupa (not the Great One).

Many sites important to Buddhists are not temples; for example the Deer Park at Sarnath, or Nalanda University. One potential wonder would be the Giant Buddhas of Bamyan that the Taliban destroyed. I've got links to lots of images of them.

Here's an old post of mine with line drawings of The Great Stupa, Temple of the Sun (a typical Hindu temple complex), and a classical era city gate.

Mandir is just the Indian name for a temple and is used of places built today as well as what we would think of as a classic temple architecture. Two sites with images and information on Hindu temples in general (Wiki and Templenet).

As to specific deities: There is the trinity: Brahma usually doesn't get a temple of his own. Shiva is the one with people putting ghee (clarified butter) and flowers on his lingam, mandirs all over the place. The images you see of homeless saddhus meditating by the side of the road are often Saivites. Vishnu incarnates over and over, the most well known avatar being Krishna; lots of mandirs also. Also popularly worshiped: Ganesha, the elephant headed god, is well loved; he's associated with material abundance and intellectual knowledge. There are many important feminine deities as well, including Kali and Lakshmi.

One note: in Vedic culture (early to your time frame) ceremonies take precedence over places.

Let me know if you want more, and what to focus on.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Only problem is with the Great Stupa - the one at Sanchi was constructed by Asoka, who was the grandson of Chandragupta, who is Alexander's main Indian enemy in the scenario. So it's a bit too late for the timescale.

The "Great Stupa" as we know it was indeed built under the auspices of Asoka. He did what most Indian benefactors did at holy sites - build something new and suitably more impressive over a preexisting shrine. The Great Stupa is like one of those Russian dolls - shell after shell surrounding relics. So there would have been something there at Sanchi during Alexander's time, although Buddhism didn't really hit its stride until the time of Asoka and later.

I also looked into the Jainist tradition and found that their temples are called Derasar.

Mahavira was a contemporary of Buddha. If you want me to track down images of Jain tirthas (pilgrimage sites/temple complexes) let me know.

 

[Gaias]

Well I will start converting the RTR units for you Keroro, as their is quite a few of them you can use for this mod. I have yet to get any confirmation from the creator of the units in the Extended Greek Mod, though I will work on them while I am waiting for a response.

I do not know how far you are taking the historical aspect of this mod, but there are a few game mechanics that can be used to persuade the player to follow historical routes. The idea would be to make the Macedonian units unable to travel over most terrain types, except for those that you put down specifically. This would allow you to move the player through historical routes and ultimately to appropriate sites for battles.

An idea for the historic battles that happened out in the field could be simulated with the preplacement of cities and units. You could place a city of one and place negative food growth resources around the city to discourage growth. You could name the city to the effect "General _____ Fort" and place the appropriate army with in the city from the chosen civ. To encourage the player to attack these sites, you could put a unit there that represents a captured captain\royalty\noble that is worth a "ransom" when brought back to a Macedonian city. This worth is simulated by a high production cost that benefits the city it was disbanded in, ala 'ransomed'.

Though I am not against unique and varied units, but having alot of them tends to bog down the late game. It would be nice to see units mean something and not to have to micromanage literally 100s of units later on. It would be good to have the 'elite' units to have a high production cost to simulate the training and time it takes to recruit them. Overall units should have a high production rate to slow down rate of units gained and make each unit the player has more valuable.

You could simulate mercenary units from other regions, by requiring these units to have a specific resource. You could make these resources invisible and place them under each city that is within the region. This way, these mercenary units would only be buildable in these cities. This would allow the player to add to their ranks faster but it would cost more in the short term.

These are just a few ideas that I had while I was sitting here. I do not know if any or all are feasible to do within the limits of CivIII. Even if any are doable I am sure their would be a need of finetuning to make it balanced for gameplay.

 

[Keroro]

Indians
The Maharabhata (Epic), Pre placed GW, Double effect of Derasars
The Ramayana (Epic), Pre placed GW, Double effect of Mandirs
Derasar (Jain Temple), requires Indians in radius, 2 happy faces
Mandir (Hindu Temple), requires Indians in radius, 2 Happy faces
Tirtha (Jain pilgrimage site), requires Indians and Indian Elephants in radius, 50% Commerce
Stupa (Buddhist Temple), requires Indians, very expensive to build to represent the recent introduction of Buddism into India, 3 Happy faces

@ Blue Monkey - This is what I came up with for the Indians. I guess that I could fit in the Great Stupa too as a GW. I recon that the buddhist stupas could potentially spread beyond India more easily than the Jainist and Hindu temples, so they don't require Indians in the city radius. The Tirtha requires Indians and Indian elephants in it's radius just to limit their avaliability. According to Wiki they could be just about anything, but I assume that they would tend to get a structure built around them for ease of viewing. Some images of these would be useful if you've got them, as I really don't know what they should look like.

 

[Keroro]

Well I will start converting the RTR units for you Keroro, as their is quite a few of them you can use for this mod. I have yet to get any confirmation from the creator of the units in the Extended Greek Mod, though I will work on them while I am waiting for a response.

That's good to hear. Quite a lot of the units I'm using are pretty old cut and paste units - good for their day but pretty bad compared to recent standards. So once again, Thanks.

I do not know how far you are taking the historical aspect of this mod, but there are a few game mechanics that can be used to persuade the player to follow historical routes. The idea would be to make the Macedonian units unable to travel over most terrain types, except for those that you put down specifically. This would allow you to move the player through historical routes and ultimately to appropriate sites for battles.

With historical mods there is always the balance between forcing the player down particular routes and allowing them freedom to make different choices. I'm forcing the player towards certain campaigns by making certain directions impossible to go in until certain techs are researched. I'm also putting impassable mountains (impassable to all units) round some areas of the map to stop the player or the AI from moving troops into the wide open spaces of northern Asia.

An idea for the historic battles that happened out in the field could be simulated with the preplacement of cities and units. You could place a city of one and place negative food growth resources around the city to discourage growth. You could name the city to the effect "General _____ Fort" and place the appropriate army with in the city from the chosen civ. To encourage the player to attack these sites, you could put a unit there that represents a captured captain\royalty\noble that is worth a "ransom" when brought back to a Macedonian city. This worth is simulated by a high production cost that benefits the city it was disbanded in, ala 'ransomed'.

Hmm. I'm using pre placed immobile princess units round the map to represent Alex's love interests, I'm not sure about the fake cities though.

Though I am not against unique and varied units, but having alot of them tends to bog down the late game. It would be nice to see units mean something and not to have to micromanage literally 100s of units later on. It would be good to have the 'elite' units to have a high production cost to simulate the training and time it takes to recruit them. Overall units should have a high production rate to slow down rate of units gained and make each unit the player has more valuable.

I hope that the core units like the companion cavalry, hypaspists and phalanx armies willl be really valuable to the player. There will be limited opportunity to build them and the player will have to rely on auto-producing wonders later in the game. These will be supplemented by troops raised from the conquered territories (a bit like the difference between colonial and imperial forces in Age of Imperialism 3.0). The supplemental troops will not be quite as good as the Macedonian core, but will probably have to make up the majority of the army by the time you reach India. There will also be a strong tendency to keep provincial forces in the conquered territories as garrisons, which is historically good.

One of the things that can get really tiresome in civ 3 is moving the colossal amounts of units towards the end of the game. Not sure if I can get round that too easily, but unit upkeep will be higher than in the normal game (should help a bit).

You could simulate mercenary units from other regions, by requiring these units to have a specific resource. You could make these resources invisible and place them under each city that is within the region. This way, these mercenary units would only be buildable in these cities. This would allow the player to add to their ranks faster but it would cost more in the short term.

I've got a ton of Mercs available, possibly too many I think. They don't have a population cost but cost more than regular troops to raise.

These are just a few ideas that I had while I was sitting here. I do not know if any or all are feasible to do within the limits of CivIII. Even if any are doable I am sure their would be a need of finetuning to make it balanced for gameplay.

Thanks for the input (units and ideas) Gaias. Some of the ideas are certainly doable, though as you say they need careful finetuning. If you have time for any playtesting...

 

[Blue Monkey]

Jains withdraw from the quotidian; Mahabharata totally would not work as a Jain-related wonder. That would be like having Hollywood double the effect of Quaker Meetinghouses. The Tirtha (pilgrimage sites) have several temples (Derasar) located on them. I'm not sure you need seperate items. There's a cool Jain wonder - a colossal statue (I'm working on getting the image for you + generic Jain temple images).

Stupas are totally believable outside India since they can contain relics of any Buddhist saint, not just "The Buddha".

 

[Ozymandias]

I just had a random thought: I think I mentioned details making the Macedonian side akin to a "Treasure Hunt" (Gordian Knot; Roxane; Persian Royal Family; etc.) - How about a (modified) Starship Victory? IIRC there's an American Revolution mod where the Founding Fathers replace starship components. There could be some (most) critical "components" in Persia; maybe one in India; and one in Macedon (to deny the Persians a quick, easy, and utterly unrealistic early victory). I have no clue how it would be to moldify the gfx, but it apparently can be done.

... & now I see it's 2:45 AM & I've plainly had too much java today ( + = )

Yours Now Forcibly Yanking My Eyeballs Out Of Cyberspace,

Oz

 

[Keroro]

Jains withdraw from the quotidian; Mahabharata totally would not work as a Jain-related wonder. That would be like having Hollywood double the effect of Quaker Meetinghouses. The Tirtha (pilgrimage sites) have several temples (Derasar) located on them. I'm not sure you need seperate items. There's a cool Jain wonder - a colossal statue (I'm working on getting the image for you + generic Jain temple images).

OK, I'll change the Mahabharata's effects, maybe it could reduce WW accross the Mauryan Empire? I think I'll keep the Tirthas in, I like the idea of them being dotted randomly accross India. One of the problems with standard games of civ is that every city seems to get the same improvements by the end of the game - I'm trying to avoid that.

Stupas are totally believable outside India since they can contain relics of any Buddhist saint, not just "The Buddha".

That's good, Alex can now introduce Buddhism into Europe. Historically ridiculous, but good fun.

I just had a random thought: I think I mentioned details making the Macedonian side akin to a "Treasure Hunt" (Gordian Knot; Roxane; Persian Royal Family; etc.) - How about a (modified) Starship Victory? IIRC there's an American Revolution mod where the Founding Fathers replace starship components. There could be some (most) critical "components" in Persia; maybe one in India; and one in Macedon (to deny the Persians a quick, easy, and utterly unrealistic early victory). I have no clue how it would be to moldify the gfx, but it apparently can be done.

... & now I see it's 2:45 AM & I've plainly had too much java today ( + = )

Yours Now Forcibly Yanking My Eyeballs Out Of Cyberspace,

Oz

I had been working on a modified starship, and have got most of the (rather poorly produced by myself) graphics to work OK. The big question that I need to get an answer for is how to move the co-ordinates of the list of SS components on the SS progress screen. IIRC there are 6 components listed down the left and 4 down the right, I need to move them to the top. I think that this was done before in TAM by Thamis, but I can't work out a way of doing it. Anyone know?

Oz, the items that you mention will be essential, but not as SS components (unless what I'm planning doesn't work in which case I might change my ideas).

Oh, and less coffee for you in future.

 

[Ozymandias]

Oh, and less coffee for you in future.

WHAT!?!? :suicide:

- Oh, and why not start a separate thread asking about Starship modification?

My Crazed Best,

Oz

 

[Blue Monkey]

That's good, Alex can now introduce Buddhism into Europe. Historically ridiculous, but good fun.

Actually, the whole idea of halos in Xian art was borrowed from Buddhism via Ghandara. Example images here. That's just the tip of the iceberg of influence.

 

[Keroro]

Actually, the whole idea of halos in Xian art was borrowed from Buddhism via Ghandara. Example images here. That's just the tip of the iceberg of influence.

Historically ridiculous in the sense that if anyone was unlikely to ascribe to the tenets of buddhism it would be Alexander, especially during his Indian campaigns. But then perhaps he was just getting ready to settle down and live a quiet life with Hephaestion when the two of them died.

But I think I should make the Bactrian / Sogdian region more suceptable to Buddhist influence. Allowing a land route between Bactria and Taxila (Ghandara) should help encourage that. At the same time I need Bactria and Sogdiana to remain very rebellious until very late in the game, so the high cost of the Buddhist Stupas should remain.

Anyway, it's too late to keep my eyes open any longer, I will sleep well in the knowledge that we may finally have a way of stopping city razing.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Expect Jain-related images late tomorrow.

 

[Gaias]

I was thinking about the units I am going to convert for this mod and an idea came to me. There are alot of defensive type animations in RTW that would normally be wasted on CivIII, as it doesn't translate well. Considering that this is a single civ game, I could essentially make the battles more interactive. That is, by giving Macedonian units and attack then defense animation and giving the AI units defense then attack.

What do you think?

P.S. When do I expect to get my copy of the mod for testing...

 

[Virote_Considon]

Oh, Gaias, if you didn't know already, it was recently descovered that the "DEFEND" slot in the .ini file works!

 

[Ozymandias]

I guess that I could fit in the Great Stupa too as a GW. [...] Some images of these would be useful if you've got them, as I really don't know what they should look like.

Although a bit off the mark, you could always use one of the several Angkor Wat GWs already made for a Great Stupa - it is, after all, principally a complex of Stupas evincing Vedic and Hindu motifs.

Best,

Oz

 

[Blue Monkey]

Although a bit off the mark, you could always use one of the several Angkor Wat GWs already made for a Great Stupa - it is, after all, principally a complex of Stupas evincing Vedic and Hindu motifs.

The architectural styles are radically different. While the dome of the Great Stupa would pass in the Bactrian region where Alexander encountered Buddhism, all of the Angkors are from about a thousand years later and clearly Southeast Asian.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Could one of the many mosques around here work?

 

[Blue Monkey]

click on the link in post 103 (third from top on this page) you'll see what the Great Stupa looks like. The dome goes all the way to the ground and is closed (it's a tomb not a temple). The closest thing here is Yoda Power's stupa although that has a more Tibetan feel.