Alexanders' Conquests Testing thread

[Virote_Considon]

Erm... they'd probably think they were surrounded by cowardly archers

Another idea: Give them to the Western Greeks, because IIRC, Sparta and Syracuse were at least on good terms, with Sparta gaining military aid from them just prior... (making it at least 2 of the wertern Greek cities )

 

[Keroro]

Ah, the twisted alliances of ancient Greece. Problem would be that if I give Sparta to Western Greece then they will probably end up at war with Persia. That's something I'm trying to avoid. Sparta stays as a seperate civ for the new biq.

Speaking of which - NEW BIQ TIME. It just goes into your civ 3/Conquests/Scenarios folder. As always it has no effect on saved games. I may also be able to fix the resource bug soon, but my time is limited this week.

EDIT - and a change log for those that are into that sort of thing.

 

[Keroro]

Er, more news, I fixed the overflow bug yesterday with the help of Virote and EmbryoDead and others, and should be able to upload a newer fixed version tonight. I also realised that one of the major missing features was the espionage, and I promised to put that in this time round. Well I haven't, but I will put it in the new version. Honest.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I've only played the new version a little bit (most of my civ time has been devoted to the MesoAm map the last couple of days). Here's some first impressions:
Abdera still has the happiness problem at game start.
The Science rate seems in the ball park of what you wanted.
Memnon did show up in Miletus on first encounter, but I suspect he had moved there.

Having fun. Bug reports to follow.

 

[Stazro]

Hiho!
I don't really have the time for long playtest-adventures, but i couldn't stop myself from playing a couple of moves
I was/am playing in Monarch-difficulty with Debug mode enabled. I spotted Memnons Army preplaced in Miletus, but never encountered Memnon in battle: I managed to take Halicarnassus in turn 4 (rebase ability saves valuable time) and the initial Memnon disappeared after turn 1! I suppose, he boarded a ship which was sunk by the corinthians. That's the only way i can think of what happened and sadly debug mode doesn't let me see loaded units.
Haven't encountered any bugs, yet (only a couple o' turns ).

 

[Keroro]

Hiho!
I don't really have the time for long playtest-adventures, but i couldn't stop myself from playing a couple of moves
I was/am playing in Monarch-difficulty with Debug mode enabled. I spotted Memnons Army preplaced in Miletus, but never encountered Memnon in battle: I managed to take Halicarnassus in turn 4 (rebase ability saves valuable time) and the initial Memnon disappeared after turn 1! I suppose, he boarded a ship which was sunk by the corinthians. That's the only way i can think of what happened and sadly debug mode doesn't let me see loaded units.
Haven't encountered any bugs, yet (only a couple o' turns ).

Nice to see you around anyway Stazro.

That's a weakness of Memnon that I may have to address, especially now that I've set up the stealth attack units. I should mention that the Barbary Corsairs, Biremes and Dieres can stealth attack, and the AI is usually smart enough to target transports. Be careful! I have done a load of work on the civilopedia recently, I should be able to release a new text update soon.

[Sits back and waits for new bug reports to flood in.]

 

[Blue Monkey]

Caught most of these a few days ago; I’ve been fighting a cold so haven’t been too coherent until just today.

Game Mechanics
Can now happily make workers everywhere. Thanks.

To quote the changelog.txt: ”Alexander transport capacity 1 - only tactical missile. Potential Bride flagged as Tactical missle.” Yet they don’t seem to be able to join up in game.


For the most part the pace of tech research seems more like what you want. I do still get my research granted in clusters of 2. And I reached a point where the “timed” tech seems to be a prerequisite for the “named” tech.


For some reason this Hypaspist just doesn’t want to disband.


Game Aesthetics
Two problems in the Diplo screen. This guy consistently has no name. Secondly, I was startled by the transparency problem with the Keltoi. I don’t remember seeing that before; I’ll keep my eyes open to see if it shows up again.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I too have had a cold/flu over the last few days.

A couple of things I have noted, however:
-In the "Macedonian Palace" entry, "Capital" is spelt "Capitol" on the link.
-In the "Capital" entry, there is also the same mistake.
-All of the SS parts have the old SS descriptions
-A lot of the techs don't seem to do anything. Especially in the last era. Is there any reason to research them?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Also: "Public Space" (not sure why it's not Agora) doesn't seem to actually be a prereq. for anything, in spite of the protestations of the 'Pedia.

Edit: Something is creeping around the Mediterranean attacking my ships that I can't see even when next to it, although I can attack it and, from the sounds, apparently sink it.

 

[Virote_Considon]

@Blue: could that be a Corsair?

 

[Keroro]

Caught most of these a few days ago; I’ve been fighting a cold so haven’t been too coherent until just today.

I too have had a cold/flu over the last few days.

I've been a bit unwell too, just to complete the set. I'm suffering from a dreadful sore throat as well.

Game Mechanics
Can now happily make workers everywhere. Thanks.

To quote the changelog.txt: ”Alexander transport capacity 1 - only tactical missile. Potential Bride flagged as Tactical missle.” Yet they don’t seem to be able to join up in game.


For the most part the pace of tech research seems more like what you want. I do still get my research granted in clusters of 2. And I reached a point where the “timed” tech seems to be a prerequisite for the “named” tech.


For some reason this Hypaspist just doesn’t want to disband.


Game Aesthetics
Two problems in the Diplo screen. This guy consistently has no name. Secondly, I was startled by the transparency problem with the Keltoi. I don’t remember seeing that before; I’ll keep my eyes open to see if it shows up again.

1 - No problem.
2 - Damn. I'll test that again and get it working.
3 - This is the most serious bug ATM. When you say you get techs in clusters of two, how exactly do you mean? Do you get one tech through the Great Library and one through research? The Death of Hephaestion tech does require one of the timer advances.
4 - Some of the units can't be disbanded, the Hypaspist is one of them. Do you think this is a good idea? And were you really trying to disband them, or did you just think it was an error?
5 - The Keltoi is easily fixed now that R8FXT has helped me work out how to deal with palette issues. If you notice any more like that then please let me know. I think that the problem with the other guy was fixed in C3C, but clearly not. There is a thread around here somewhere explaining about how to fix it, I'll sort it out for the patch.

A couple of things I have noted, however:
-In the "Macedonian Palace" entry, "Capital" is spelt "Capitol" on the link.
-In the "Capital" entry, there is also the same mistake.
-All of the SS parts have the old SS descriptions
-A lot of the techs don't seem to do anything. Especially in the last era. Is there any reason to research them?

1/2 - I tend to alternate between the two. I'll standardise the pedia for the next patch.
3 - I haven't really set up the SS perfectly yet, the parts should all only be buildable in the appropriate cities, hopefully I'll get it sorted for the next patch.
4 - Some of them will be requisites for new stuff to go into the scenario. North African Trade Route will allow you to build fast workers in Egypt that can build roads across deserts, The Temple Building advance will enable a number of Wonders. Some of the others will be linked to other improvements and units. Also you need to get through the Carthaginian, Arabian and Indian campaigns to enable one of the victory types.

Also: "Public Space" (not sure why it's not Agora) doesn't seem to actually be a prereq. for anything, in spite of the protestations of the 'Pedia.

It should be a requisite for some of the advanced buildings. I'll update that, and the pedia, for the next patch. I called it Public Space because any civ can build it, and I wasn't sure that the Indian or Barbarian civs should end up with an 'Agora' in their cities. What do you think, change to Agora or stay as it is?

Edit: Something is creeping around the Mediterranean attacking my ships that I can't see even when next to it, although I can attack it and, from the sounds, apparently sink it.

@Blue: could that be a Corsair?

That certainly could be a Corsair. Your Dieres should be able to see the corsairs though, have you still got some or are you just using Trieres and larger?

Thanks for the reports all, very helpful in working out what needs to be changed.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Here's the fix for the leader problem: Link to DL database

 

[Blue Monkey]

Game Mechanics

Alpha

Something is creeping around the Mediterranean attacking my ships that I can't see even when next to it, although I can attack it and, from the sounds, apparently sink it.

That certainly could be a Corsair. Your Dieres should be able to see the corsairs though, have you still got some or are you just using Trieres and larger?

No more Dieres. If the Corsairs are the fast ones with the triangular sails, that have the white civ color ring I normally associate with barbarians (or maybe it's Cretan "pink"), then I can see them fine when I'm next to them. This is something completely invisible even while I’m being attacked or attacking it.


Beta

Some of the units can't be disbanded, the Hypaspist is one of them. Do you think this is a good idea? And were you really trying to disband them, or did you just think it was an error?

I just noticed the missing button (I’ve been trying to keep an eye on unit abilities). I’m curious why you want them “eternal”, don’t really have an opinion without knowing your motivation.

On the subject of Hypaspsists, look at this:

It’s veteran, and I didn’t name it with the “1st”. I did an auto upgrade to Successors. Is this a starting unit you gave a special name to?


Gamma
The Temple of Eshmun does not seem to be functioning as a granary, by the evidence of the city screen (no dividing line in the food box).



Delta

This is the most serious bug ATM. When you say you get techs in clusters of two, how exactly do you mean? Do you get one tech through the Great Library and one through research? The Death of Hephaestion tech does require one of the timer advances.

I always get the “named” techs in clusters of two, normally on the turn I would expect to complete a tech. The second can’t be because of the Library; that’s currently being built by the Mauryans in Madurai. The “timed” techs went screwy on me after being predictable early in the game; at a certain point I received 3 on the same turn. Also I get unexpectedly get an early return on my investment every once in a while:

To tell you the truth, because of the nature of your tech tree I wasn’t paying much attention to science/research other than to keep the basic rate close to 8 turns. I haven’t even built the “science” improvements this time around, except when I wanted the happy face of an Apollo temple. Consequently I can’t tell you accurately when all these events are happening.

If you want I’m willing to start a game from scratch and take turn by turn notes focusing on the research rate and the tech tree. I’d play that game not towards victory goals, but to experiment for causes and effects relative to tech discoveries.


Game Aesthetics

Epsilon

I'll standardise the pedia for the next patch.

A spot check for text overruns in the in-game display is probably called for. I think Nubia’s entry is a little long, for example.


Zeta

I called it Public Space because any civ can build it, and I wasn't sure that the Indian or Barbarian civs should end up with an 'Agora' in their cities. What do you think, change to Agora or stay as it is?

Most of the names you’ve Hellenized already. I’d definitely call it Agora. Brings to mind Socrates and Diogenes and all that. “Public Space” is too generic.


Eta
Speaking of names, how about renaming the Norsemen with something more “period” and Helleno-centric? Maybe something to connect them with Thule?


Theta
How about Helots instead of slaves? I know it started specifically Spartan, but it did come into more general use, even being adapted in English as an equivalent of serf.

Iota
Also, why “Africa” instead of Numidia? And is this guy’s first name “Tim” by any chance?

 

[Keroro]

Game Mechanics

Alpha


No more Dieres. If the Corsairs are the fast ones with the triangular sails, that have the white civ color ring I normally associate with barbarians (or maybe it's Cretan "pink"), then I can see them fine when I'm next to them. This is something completely invisible even while I’m being attacked or attacking it.


Beta
I just noticed the missing button (I’ve been trying to keep an eye on unit abilities). I’m curious why you want them “eternal”, don’t really have an opinion without knowing your motivation.

On the subject of Hypaspsists, look at this:

It’s veteran, and I didn’t name it with the “1st”. I did an auto upgrade to Successors. Is this a starting unit you gave a special name to?


Gamma
The Temple of Eshmun does not seem to be functioning as a granary, by the evidence of the city screen (no dividing line in the food box).



Delta

I always get the “named” techs in clusters of two, normally on the turn I would expect to complete a tech. The second can’t be because of the Library; that’s currently being built by the Mauryans in Madurai. The “timed” techs went screwy on me after being predictable early in the game; at a certain point I received 3 on the same turn. Also I get unexpectedly get an early return on my investment every once in a while:

To tell you the truth, because of the nature of your tech tree I wasn’t paying much attention to science/research other than to keep the basic rate close to 8 turns. I haven’t even built the “science” improvements this time around, except when I wanted the happy face of an Apollo temple. Consequently I can’t tell you accurately when all these events are happening.

If you want I’m willing to start a game from scratch and take turn by turn notes focusing on the research rate and the tech tree. I’d play that game not towards victory goals, but to experiment for causes and effects relative to tech discoveries.


Game Aesthetics

Epsilon

A spot check for text overruns in the in-game display is probably called for. I think Nubia’s entry is a little long, for example.


Zeta
Most of the names you’ve Hellenized already. I’d definitely call it Agora. Brings to mind Socrates and Diogenes and all that. “Public Space” is too generic.


Eta
Speaking of names, how about renaming the Norsemen with something more “period” and Helleno-centric? Maybe something to connect them with Thule?


Theta
How about Helots instead of slaves? I know it started specifically Spartan, but it did come into more general use, even being adapted in English as an equivalent of serf.

Iota
Also, why “Africa” instead of Numidia? And is this guy’s first name “Tim” by any chance?

Alpha - There are two pirate ships, one with a double sail and one with a single sail. You could be getting them confused. I might remove the double sail one from the next version in fact, since I don't actually think it's needed.

Beta - The three Hypaspists that you begin the game with are named 1st, 2nd and 3rd, when you upgrade them they retain their old name. I wanted to make a lot of the Macedonian units difficult to get rid of, so the Hypaspists and Argyaspides cannot be disbanded. The Argys in particular were historically impossible to get rid of, and the Diadochi ended up sending them on suicide missions to get them out of the way. Despite this the silver haired vets kept winning and gaining more power and influence for themselves.

Gamma - I believe that the Granary line only appears once the box is over half full. Check again in a few turns.

Delta - Damn. Don't start another game though, not until the patch is ready and released. The Great Library I meant was actually the 'Shrine of Achilles' if I remember right. I'll explain - in this scenario the SoAchilles has the flag that the Great Library has in the standard game, while the Great Library in this scenario (which shouldn't be buildable outside Alexandria thanks for the heads up on that) has different flags assigned to it. It looks like you're receiving some of the Alexandrian techs from the SoAchilles, which shouldn;t be possible. Back to the editor for me.

Epsilon - That's probably true.

Zeta - That's probably true too.

Eta - I'm open to suggestions on the naming of that civ, but Thule is a bad one. The map I worked from had Thule in the far North Western corner, well out of the way. I guess Pannonia might work?

Theta - You've given me an idea, I should somehow distinguish between citizens, Metics, and slaves in cities. I should also swap the worker and the slave in the unit list so that slaves can be traded but workers can't. I'm uncomfortable with the term Helot, as most slaves in this scenario are from battles and the Helots were a specific group in the Peloponese. Perhaps Dmos is the best term?

Iota - It will be a she when I get a chance to change the graphics. Timbuktu is a perversion of Tin-Buktu, which means the place Buktu is from. Therefore the LH name is Buktu.

 

[Keroro]

A quick question - should the rebase option stay for all the units, or does it make things too easy? It was meant to represent Alexander's capability to get his troops into the right place at lightning speed, but if things are just too easy now then I could get rid of it.

I'm reading a book about the Battle of Salamis ATM, and shoud be able to get some good quotes from it for the galley civilopedia entries. It's by Barry Strauss and it's a pretty good read. Following that will be a new biography of Alexander by Paul Cartledge. Following this I will be available as (another) expert ancient Greek history dude of the CFC forums.

 

[Virote_Considon]

For the tech "problem", do you have any wonders with the "gives +2 advances" flag? That could be the problem, instead of the SoA.

EDIT: I too am reading a book by Paul Cartledge, only mine's on the Spartans. I'm info-extracting as we speak!

 

[Keroro]

For the tech "problem", do you have any wonders with the "gives +2 advances" flag? That could be the problem, instead of the SoA.

I'm pretty sure not, but I'll check. I can't quite remember whether the Macedonian civ had access to the Alexandrian tech tree. If so then I might need to stop that access. Otherwise I'll just have to playtest more thoroughly to work out where Alex is getting his techs from.

EDIT: I too am reading a book by Paul Cartledge, only mine's on the Spartans. I'm info-extracting as we speak!

I started reading some stuff ("The Greeks") by him when I did Greek classics at University, but I haven't come across the Spartan one yet. I'm sure that it's very interesting anyway, since he seems to have the knack of making the subject pretty readable.

 

[Kyriakos]

Trapesous should be Trapezous (just looked at the pic)

 

[Blue Monkey]

Alpha - There are two pirate ships, one with a double sail and one with a single sail. You could be getting them confused.

I should have taken a screen shot of the naval battle I was in last night. I’m pretty sure I saw both double and single sailed ships attack my transports crossing from Rhodes to attack Cyrenaica. Then a turn later 3 of my penteres hit the “invisibles” on the Egyptian coast.

Beta - The three Hypaspists that you begin the game with are named 1st, 2nd and 3rd, when you upgrade them they retain their old name. I wanted to make a lot of the Macedonian units difficult to get rid of, so the Hypaspists and Argyaspides cannot be disbanded. The Argys in particular were historically impossible to get rid of, and the Diadochi ended up sending them on suicide missions to get them out of the way. Despite this the silver haired vets kept winning and gaining more power and influence for themselves.

One of the things I’m enjoying about the playtest is learning a lot more about this period. I know enough about Greek theatrical techne to bore people at cocktail parties, I’ve read Xenophon (in English), etc., but there’s huge gaps in what I know. So I see this mod with open eyes, and you give me eye-openers.

Gamma - I believe that the Granary line only appears once the box is over half full. Check again in a few turns.

You’re right. I intended to amend my post, but you guys beat me to it.

Delta - Damn. Don't start another game though, not until the patch is ready and released. The Great Library I meant was actually the 'Shrine of Achilles' if I remember right.

The offer stands to run a narrowly focused troubleshoot on this issue, but also others. To me that’s part and parcel of play testing.

Eta - I'm open to suggestions on the naming of that civ, but Thule is a bad one. ... I guess Pannonia might work?

To quote Wikipedia “Pannonia is an ancient country bounded north and east by the Danube, conterminous westward with Noricum and upper Italy, and southward with Dalmatia and upper Moesia. Pannonia was located in the territory of the present-day countries of: Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.” so it’s not far enough north for the Norse is it? At least not during the Classical era? I know during the Hanseatic League era they settled that area, but during this period wasn’t it settled by Keltoi and other tribes? After a quick peak I would recommend Varni or Geatai as names covering the right area and period.

Theta - You've given me an idea, I should somehow distinguish between citizens, Metics, and slaves in cities. I should also swap the worker and the slave in the unit list so that slaves can be traded but workers can't. I'm uncomfortable with the term Helot

Agree with the slot swap - follow your own judgement on the name, I’d just Hellenize as much as you can, like referring to the Indian Bramhins as Gymnosophists, for the sake of the flavor of the mod.

Iota - ... Timbuktu is a perversion of Tin-Buktu, which means the place Buktu is from. Therefore the LH name is Buktu.

See, another eye-opener. But I still wonder why not Numidia?

A quick question - should the rebase option stay for all the units, or does it make things too easy? It was meant to represent Alexander's capability to get his troops into the right place at lightning speed, but if things are just too easy now then I could get rid of it.

Can the rebase be limited to particular elite units? Maybe Alex & the boys, the companion cavalry and the Phalanxes? It does seem necessary to have some ability to rapidly redeploy.

But check out this exploit - I’ve given you a visual of a short-range case; some of the units can do this trick from much farther away. And as I’m thinking about it now, I wonder if I could do a multipoint leapfrog with the really fast units to cross the whole pond. I'm not sure you can get rid of that without eliminating the rebase.


I want to thank you again for the opportunity to playtest a mod with someone who is both open and responsive to my input.

 

[Keroro]

I'll reply to most of the points you've raised tomorrow, but I'm interested in the exploit that you've found in the rebase ability. I must admit that it had not occurred to me that units would be able to use it more than once a turn. I might take it away from some of the 'provincial' units and the slowest moving like heavy infantry. i might remove it from the armies too. These units will be movable via the great ports that you can build later in the game. Sound OK?

I want to thank you again for the opportunity to playtest a mod with someone who is both open and responsive to my input.

Aww, thanks. So you're spending hours of your life testing my unfinished project and you're thanking me?? If your input wasn't valuable then I would ignore it, but most of the points that you're coming up with are good.