Alexanders' Conquests Testing thread

[Blue Monkey]

Game Mechanics:

ITEM ONE: Science is advancing at quite a clip. Every 2-3 turns I get at least two of the “year” techs and at least 2 of the techs in the line I am researching, sometimes as many as four.


ITEM TWO: The upgrade sequence Worker > Engineer > Siege Engineer: I don’t understand why the Engineer can’t build roads among other things. The Siege Engineer seems to have even fewer abilities. And only very occasionally a city will be able to build a worker. It seems usually to be a city that is not connected by road to my heartland.


ITEM THREE: The Phalanx upgrades to Argyaspedes which does not have “army” functions; once I was able to build Argyaspedes no more Phalanxes seem to appear via the Alexander’s Leadership wonder. EDIT: That last is not true - I miscounted the turns; I just got a new Phalanx. The point remains that an army should upgrade to an army.


ITEM FOUR: You’ve got two terrain types without entries in the ‘pedia - Cedars and Passes. Apparently nothing can build a road through a pass. And check out the graphic I found for one square of Cedar.


ITEM FIVE: There’s what I perceive as a problem with the relative costs for city improvements. for example the research related buildings.

Library.................80 shields.....1 gp maint......+50% research
but
Mithra’s Temple.....40 shields.....1 gp...............+50%
Apollo’s Temple.....30 shields.....1 gp...............+50%....+1 happy face
Minerva’s Temple...30 shields.....0 gp..............+50%

I can build Mithra & Apollo (in the same city) for less than the cost of an

Academy..............120 shields....1 gp..............+50%

ITEM SIX: I don’t understand the mechanics of how to use the Potential Brides; do I keep them in place until they become Heirs? Do I move them to a particular location (and if so where)?

ITEM SEVEN: So far as I know, only the Statue, Theater, and Ampitheater add culture. Is that your intent?

Game Aesthetics

ITEM EIGHT: I remember the daughter with “great tracts of land” in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Is this guy a tribute to her?

 

[bd41094]

I would defidently help you but I've already promised to people with two mods that I would help them.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Item 8 is a problem with Diplomacy.txt

 

[Synobun]

I'm going to install this mod, but just to play it.

I might pull out a thing or two which has an impact.

 

[Keroro]

It's been too long since I posted here, my apologies to all. I have rather limited time on my computer ATM. Great work to the people testing and giving feedback though.

1 - I'm SURE he starts in Miletus (I thought this was strange...) Also, I've never seen him come out to attack me...
2 - I'm sure it won't matter too much- the Scythian Merc is too expensive for Sardis when you have just taken it, TBH
3 - Ah. Thanks. I think I will just let the AI research the 1st era techs next time, then...

1 - In fact you're right, I put him in Miletus to get him into the game earlier. The Wonder that spawns him later is in Halicarnassus though.
2 - The problem with ghost resources is that they multiply out of control in games where not every city has a trade link to your capital. I've got to get rid of that bug.

Game Mechanics:

ITEM ONE: Science is advancing at quite a clip. Every 2-3 turns I get at least two of the “year” techs and at least 2 of the techs in the line I am researching, sometimes as many as four.

Damn, I though I had got rid of that problem. You should only get a second age tech every 8 turns and a Timer tech every 26 turns. I'll look into that for the next version. Again. Curses.

ITEM TWO: The upgrade sequence Worker > Engineer > Siege Engineer: I don’t understand why the Engineer can’t build roads among other things. The Siege Engineer seems to have even fewer abilities. And only very occasionally a city will be able to build a worker. It seems usually to be a city that is not connected by road to my heartland.

In the next version you will be able to build workers normally, and I will also give the engineer the ability to build roads. The siege engineer is not really an engineer in the traditional sense - they are intended to be used in sieges as artillery. You have to choose whether you keep the engineers or if you get the siege engineers instead.

ITEM THREE: The Phalanx upgrades to Argyaspedes which does not have “army” functions; once I was able to build Argyaspedes no more Phalanxes seem to appear via the Alexander’s Leadership wonder. EDIT: That last is not true - I miscounted the turns; I just got a new Phalanx. The point remains that an army should upgrade to an army.

As with the Engineer, this provides the player with a choice. If you want the best unit available then you will need to sacrifice an army to get it. The Argyaspedes is rock hard though, and probably more than a match for the phalanx armies.

ITEM FOUR: You’ve got two terrain types without entries in the ‘pedia - Cedars and Passes. Apparently nothing can build a road through a pass. And check out the graphic I found for one square of Cedar.

Yep, nothing can build a road through a pass. This is to stop the Empire being linked together into a single homogenous entity (until later in the game anyway). The different regions should maintain a different character since they will have access to different resources. This is why it is very important that I get rid of that Ghost resource bug.

ITEM FIVE: There’s what I perceive as a problem with the relative costs for city improvements. for example the research related buildings.

Library.................80 shields.....1 gp maint......+50% research
but
Mithra’s Temple.....40 shields.....1 gp...............+50%
Apollo’s Temple.....30 shields.....1 gp...............+50%....+1 happy face
Minerva’s Temple...30 shields.....0 gp..............+50%

I can build Mithra & Apollo (in the same city) for less than the cost of an

Academy..............120 shields....1 gp..............+50%

I can see that I'm going to have to re-balance these. I wanted some of the Temples to be cheap to build but only available in certain places. I will alter them for the next biq.

ITEM SIX: I don’t understand the mechanics of how to use the Potential Brides; do I keep them in place until they become Heirs? Do I move them to a particular location (and if so where)?

ITEM SEVEN: So far as I know, only the Statue, Theater, and Ampitheater add culture. Is that your intent?

Yes, I'm limiting culture since 1 - if all the temples and other improvements added culture then cities would be able to get ridiculous amounts of culture very quickly 2 - The cities keep their culture on capture anyway, so you don't need to rebuild your territory after conquest 3 - A single city culture win is one of the Victory methods and if a city was generating masses of culture it would mess it up. Talking of cultural victory, the princesses should be upgraded into heirs and then sacrificed to gain culture in one city (probably Babylon, which should be your capital by the time the heirs can be made).

Game Aesthetics

ITEM EIGHT: I remember the daughter with “great tracts of land” in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Is this guy a tribute to her?

Item 8 is a problem with Diplomacy.txt

Yep, that's a txt problem. Will be fixed for the first big patch.

Talking of patches - I'll try to get the first update of the game out for the end of the week. It will just be a new .biq for now so you won't need a big new download. I will eventually need a 'big patch' to add some more stuff to the game that is not there yet, like a range of Indian and barbarian Temples and the LHs for the new Tamil civ and African civ. That will not be coming for a while yet though, since I'm concentrating on making sure that the basic structure of the game is stable and more or less bug free.

 

[Keroro]

I would defidently help you but I've already promised to people with two mods that I would help them.

We all have limited time (unfortunate), but thanks for dropping in.

I'm going to install this mod, but just to play it.

I might pull out a thing or two which has an impact.

You're unlikely to enjoy it yet. Has too many bugs.

 

[Virote_Considon]

We all have limited time (unfortunate), but thanks for dropping in.

You're unlikely to enjoy it yet. Has too many bugs.

What are bugs doing muscling in on the RNG's turf?

 

[Blue Monkey]

I think I get what's going on with the ridiculously high cost in shields and pop for both Argyaspides and Siege Engineer - they'll only ever be produced by a wonder, right? But why on earth can't I be allowed to build a settler? Even if you set the cost high enough that it becomes unattractive to the AI, there ought to be a way to let the player found a new city more often than once every 24 turns. Otherwise you've wasted a lot of effort placing resources that will never be utilized (too far from cities, too few workers to waste converting them to 3-4 colonies when a single settler would put all the surrounding territory into play.)

 

[Blue Monkey]

Yep, nothing can build a road through a pass. This is to stop the Empire being linked together into a single homogenous entity (until later in the game anyway). The different regions should maintain a different character since they will have access to different resources.

Another effect I've noticed is that the isolated regions cannot build Garrisons. And I can link two areas - I can Settle a pass.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Apologize for multiple posts; but I wanted to give you a crack at this before you post an updated BIQ.

I'm glad you'll be adding road-building to engineers; hopefully they'll also be able to mine and irrigate.


In spite of the admonitions of the 'pedia, a city with a port can still build a river port.


I understand that it's because it has no wood; but do you really want Salamis to be unable to build a harbor?


There's a problem with how you have the various Hellenic nationalities, leagues, etc. named that shows up in diplomatic dialogues and in the colorblind help. They're all "Greek". I could all too easily start a military alliance against my friends.


EDIT: The Pillars of Hercules really ought to be passable.


Edit 2.0: Why isn't this man smiling?

 

[Keroro]

I think I get what's going on with the ridiculously high cost in shields and pop for both Argyaspides and Siege Engineer - they'll only ever be produced by a wonder, right? But why on earth can't I be allowed to build a settler? Even if you set the cost high enough that it becomes unattractive to the AI, there ought to be a way to let the player found a new city more often than once every 24 turns. Otherwise you've wasted a lot of effort placing resources that will never be utilized (too far from cities, too few workers to waste converting them to 3-4 colonies when a single settler would put all the surrounding territory into play.)

You're right with the Argyaspides and Siege Engineers - they need to be on the build list otherwise you will never be able to upgrade the armies and engineers into them - but they shouldn't ever be built in a city. The settlers are limited for two main reasons 1 - To limit Alex's city building to it's historical extent (you should have enough settlers to settle on all the areas with the 'Alexandria' resource, which is where the historical Alexandria cities were founded 2 - Large games of civ are often problematic towards the end due to the huge amount of micromanagement involved in a large empire, I am trying to avoid that.

Another effect I've noticed is that the isolated regions cannot build Garrisons. And I can link two areas - I can Settle a pass.

I'll check the garrisons and make sure that they don't need any resources to build. And I'll make sure that the passes terrain can't be settled.

In spite of the admonitions of the 'pedia, a city with a port can still build a river port.

They have the power plant flag, so when one of them is built you will lose the other.

I understand that it's because it has no wood; but do you really want Salamis to be unable to build a harbor?

I think that I have changed that for the next version already - will check.

There's a problem with how you have the various Hellenic nationalities, leagues, etc. named that shows up in diplomatic dialogues and in the colorblind help. They're all "Greek". I could all too easily start a military alliance against my friends.

Ah, an unexpected 'feature' of the scenario - random wars. Added value right there. Will be changed.

EDIT: The Pillars of Hercules really ought to be passable.

In RFRE testing it was found that the Carthaginian navy will very quickly p*** off into the Atlantic leaving Carthage powerless unless the pillars are closed. It is an unfortunate necessity in this case.

Edit 2.0: Why isn't this man smiling?

A bit strange, though the barracks do cause one unhappy face. I can only guess that it's because you're at war with Persia. I think that if you double click on an unhappy face it gives you a breakdown of factors affecting happiness. You also have no luxuries, I may change that for the next version so that you have a few luxes in that area.

 

[Blue Monkey]

To limit Alex's city building to it's historical extent (you should have enough settlers to settle on all the areas with the 'Alexandria' resource, which is where the historical Alexandria cities were founded 2 - Large games of civ are often problematic towards the end due to the huge amount of micromanagement involved in a large empire, I am trying to avoid that.

You can encourage us to build in certain spots by the lushness of resources; But...

when the tech tree has no branches and we're only supposed to build in certain spots and we're in locked alliances and locked opponents and we're impelled to attack certain cities or face overwhelming odds and can't build key units... it gets to be more like Sonic the Great than like Civ. ("How do you do level 330 BC? Jump, Kick, Run, Grab The Ring, Run, Jump,...") At some point you have to give a Civ player freedom of choice, or else no one will play more than once.

A bit strange, though the barracks do cause one unhappy face. I can only guess that it's because you're at war with Persia. I think that if you double click on an unhappy face it gives you a breakdown of factors affecting happiness. You also have no luxuries, I may change that for the next version so that you have a few luxes in that area.

I teased you a bit on that one. That shot was from the very turn I captured the city, which was isolated from the rest of the empire. The next turn he moved from unhappy to content.

 

[Keroro]

I've nearly finished getting an update of the .biq ready, but can't finish it off and upload till Monday because I left something important at work (a re-arrangement of the civ traits). This should give me enough time to check that I've finally fixed the tech tree problems that everyone has encountered.

@ Blue - I take your point about some of the city locations, I'll make them a bit more appealing.

In the early parts of this scenario I am trying to lead the player into making the kinds of decisions that Alex made, and if someone played the game without founding Nile Alexandria then I would get pretty upset. I believe that the game opens up more in the latter stages, and you get a lot more freedom with what you get to do. I've included as many little historical touchs as I could, because I think that some people will love that stuff and be disappointed if it's not there. Like the clues to where Alex himself founded his namesake cities - even if you choose not to settle there it's a good little history lesson. Like the Argyaspides - if you choose not to upgrade the armies then hopefully the civilopedia (when it's finished) will at least tell you something about who they were and what effect they had on history.

Also, please bear in mind that I'm just trying to get a playable mod ATM. I'll be able to do loads more work on the balance between player freedom and historical accuracy later.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm learning. I'm having fun. I'm just suggesting. A good civilopedia (I know that's a goal you're working towards) as to effects of units/improvements/resources helps to nudge the player a lot. I didn't know until 2 days ago that those fat red Xs were where you expected us to use the few settlers.

This time through was just exploratory for me anyway. I'm waiting for your new BIQ to start a fresh game which I will do my best to play as you intend us to. I'll be shifting up a difficulty level now that I grasp some of the mechanics.

 

[Virote_Considon]

OK, I have some suggestions for some city changes:

1. Either a) get rid of Messina, or b) give it to the League of Corinth. This city was, by now, in the League, and was used as a piece of anti-Spartan propaganda (because the Helots were now running it). If you want to replace it with something, you should use Sparta's only colony (who was still under Spartan control, and who the Macedonians used as a big source of Mercenaries), Taranto (who you have given to the Western Greeks).

2. Ilium. It had long ceased to be a city at this period in time, and wasn't re-build until the Roman period (or was it the Byzantine?). Instead, you should use Abydos instead.

I hope this helps

 

[Keroro]

OK, I have some suggestions for some city changes:

1. Either a) get rid of Messina, or b) give it to the League of Corinth. This city was, by now, in the League, and was used as a piece of anti-Spartan propaganda (because the Helots were now running it). If you want to replace it with something, you should use Sparta's only colony (who was still under Spartan control, and who the Macedonians used as a big source of Mercenaries), Taranto (who you have given to the Western Greeks).

2. Ilium. It had long ceased to be a city at this period in time, and wasn't re-build until the Roman period (or was it the Byzantine?). Instead, you should use Abydos instead.

I hope this helps

Ah, some precious knowledge that you undoubtedly learned from your own Greek scenario.
1 - I'm willing to getting rid of Messina, but I would want to replace it with a Spartan/Lacedaemonian city on the Peloponese. Do you know whether Sparta had any major allies on the mainland at that time? I'm slightly uneasy to use Taranto as a Spartan city, since I believe that they were fairly independent at the time - when they were threatened by Roman aggresion they sent to Epirus for help rather than to Sparta.
2 - Good spot, will change that. Thanks.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Sparta had absolutely no allies on the continent, IIRC- in fact, they were soley the only Greek city that wasn't put in the League of Corinth, to make a point.

I do, however, think you should keep Messina as an "in your face!" thing for Sparta.

Also, you could consider giving Sparta to Crete, because it would represent the Spartan Mercenary Monarch's, and also free up a slot for when you add 1 of the 2 new civs . That's just a suggestion, of course.

 

[Keroro]

Sparta had absolutely no allies on the continent, IIRC- in fact, they were soley the only Greek city that wasn't put in the League of Corinth, to make a point.

I do, however, think you should keep Messina as an "in your face!" thing for Sparta.

Also, you could consider giving Sparta to Crete, because it would represent the Spartan Mercenary Monarch's, and also free up a slot for when you add 1 of the 2 new civs . That's just a suggestion, of course.

Hmm, I looked into my books on Sparta again, and found that their main seaport seems to have been called Gytheion/Gytheio. I may use that in the next biq to bolster the Spartan power on mainland Greece. We'll see how it plays and return to the question later if needs be.

I had considered giving Creta to Sparta, but I think I like them as Pirates now. Aarrrgh.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I think Gytheion had been razed by Thebes by this time, unfortunatley...

And I never said give Crete to Sparta, I said give Sparta to Crete

But the Taranto idea is, IMO, the best idea.

 

[Keroro]

Are you thinking about Xenophon? I think that the Thebans sieged Gytheion but were unable to take it - they burned a bunch of other towns.

Xenophon (Hellenica VI 5.30) mentions that around 369BC, when the Thebans were walking towards Helos, burned the unfortified cities and for three days laid siege to Gytheion, which was the Spartan port. Pausanias (III 21, 4-5) mentions the quarrying of Lapis Lacaedemonius, thus supporting historically the archaeological evidence of its trade. The city and its harbour are also mentioned by Thucydides, and other ancient writers such as Strabo, Diodorus Siculus and Pliny.

Found here.

What would a Spartan think about being given to a bunch of Cretans?