Alternate History: The Munich Agreement
- Thread starter GeorgeLiquor
- Start date
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Providing aid to each other in combats against Polish forces.
You missed the more important half.
You missed the more important half.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
So was the German invasion of Poland in September 1939 - also over border territory quarrels.
According to historical revisionists, of course.
Apparently also Soviets - not only Germans - were good in historical revisionism (already since the 19th century):
Historical brand new school
With is precise research method
Imported en bloc from Germany
Distributed over Vistula
And, obtaining a fresh view,
Measures history with new yardstick
(...)
And so on... and so on...
Spins increasingly audacious conclusions
And, twisting old judgments,
Will not stop in its zeal,
Until it is proven, that King Herod
Was a philanthropist of orphans
Adam Asnyk, "Historyczna nowa szkoła" ("Historical new school"), April 1890:
http://literat.ug.edu.pl/asnyk/129.htm
Yeah, by shooting at and killing each other during Lvov battle.
Like all good allies should do.
Unlike NATO-Russia relations of course, when Russia provides real help for NATO forces in Afghanistan.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
That was a friendly fire incident. And Poles were also firing (fire was from 3 sides).
Indeed, for example during the Desert Storm friendly fire caused more casualties than Iraqi forces.
No, it wasn't. No need to be so agitated about it
Both sides knew who they were shooting at.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
The "border dispute" with Poland was different: the terms proposed by Germany could not possibly have been agreed to by the Poles, and were designed that way so as to provide a flimsy casus belli. The dispute with Finland was one the Soviets had been talking with them about for years, which involved unequal exchange of territory to provide a buffer for Leningrad, and which only really escalated once the Germans started providing the Finns with arms, armaments, and military advisers; i.e., once the West decided it wanted to play games with the Soviets again.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Don't argue with someone who is as knowledgeable on the September Campaign 1939 as me.
If you annoy me enough, I am going to quote a ton of sources to prove you wrong.
That was a friendly fire incident - this is clear when you read sources about it.
And as I wrote - Polish units were also shooting, so everyone was confused who is shooting at whom.
Especially, that Soviet soldiers appeared in the area suddenly - Germans did not know about the presence of Soviet forces in the nearbyhood - according to German sources, they were convinced that they were being attacked by Polish tanks, not Soviet tanks.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
You already do that regularly without provocation.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
But not now because now I'm busy with something else.
You may also wonder why the Allies did not declare war on the "antifascist" USSR when it invaded their ally Poland. The USSR's "antifascism" miraculously vaporized with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. And ofcourse Uncle Joe couldn't be happier when Nazi Germany attacked the imperialist Allies. Just as happy as he was accepting Western aid when Hitler turned East finally in June '41.
I'm sure Poland would have been better off if they "allied" with the USSR as the Baltic states did. Should we mention Katyn at this point?
Don't shut me up, mr knowledgeable. It wasn't a friendly fire incident, no matter what font you use to repeat this statement.
Back to the start:
About as much as happened in Sept. '39 when war actually was declared.
Yet Germany wasn't ready for war in 1939 either. Hitler only expected a major war in 1942. Even after the fall of France he kept hoping in vain for a British peace offering.
As per Hitler being assassinated: that failed about 50 times.
About as much as happened in Sept. '39 when war actually was declared.
Yet Germany wasn't ready for war in 1939 either. Hitler only expected a major war in 1942. Even after the fall of France he kept hoping in vain for a British peace offering.
As per Hitler being assassinated: that failed about 50 times.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Red Elk, OK, you provoked me:
The only source which describes this as not friendly fire, but something else, are memoirs of Captain Alexander Vasilievich Yegorov ("S wieroj w pobiedu"), which were written and published in Moscow in 1974 - over 35 years after the event took place...
All other sources, including German, Polish and Soviet combat reports and other sources from 1939 (or written shortly later) describe it as friendly fire.
Official mutual letters of apology also describe it as a friendly fire incidents.
Both sides - the Germans and the Soviets - oficially apologized each other for that incident.
The only source which describes this as not friendly fire, but something else, are memoirs of Captain Alexander Vasilievich Yegorov ("S wieroj w pobiedu"), which were written and published in Moscow in 1974 - over 35 years after the event took place...
All other sources, including German, Polish and Soviet combat reports and other sources from 1939 (or written shortly later) describe it as friendly fire.
Official mutual letters of apology also describe it as a friendly fire incidents.
Both sides - the Germans and the Soviets - oficially apologized each other for that incident.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
I know why. Because the Soviets did not declare war on Poland, and the Western Allies recognized what the USSR was doing and why.
Hardly. The Pact was the last resort for temporary security. The time bought by the Pact enabled the Soviets to defeat the Nazis later.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. "They will sell us the rope with which they will themselves be hanged." Why shouldn't they accept help if they need it? Why shouldn't Stalin be happy that two of his enemies are fighting?
It has already, although I think it's cute that you think I don't know about it.
I personally would prefer to lose 20,000 upper-class nationalist officers than 6 million from all across society. Although I wonder if Katyn would still have happened, had the Poles cooperated willingly and friendly instead of behaving offensively toward the Soviets?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
This is not exactly true.
Germans evaluated that the best moment to start the war was either in 1939 or in 1940 (with more emphasis put to 1940).
By 1941 - as Germans calculated - British and French war industry would already outproduce German war industry.
This means that waiting with the war was unfavourable for Germany - Britain and France could simply produce more of everything.
Soviet war industry was most likely also producing more and faster than German war industry could produce.
This is why Germany quickly needed to capture French and Polish war industry (Czechoslovakian was not enough).
=================================
And - as a matter of fact - Germany was never ready for a World War, because it had very weak Navy (Kriegsmarine).
Even Britain alone had a much stronger Navy (Royal Navy) than Germany.
Germany could afford a European War - but not a World War.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
The major publication* "exposing" the Ukrainian famine was also published decades after the event. Are you calling that into question as well?
*which has since been seriously re-evaluated by other scholars in the field
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
So was the major publication "exposing" the Soviet Katyn Crime - try to guess why...
Those memories were published in 1974 - in the same period Polish children at school were learning that Katyn was a German Crime...
In 1974, Polish children at school were also not learning about the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Guess why.
What "other scholars" ???
Captain Yegorov was not "a scholar" - he was a simlple soldier, who published his memoirs in 1974.
Not the only one. I can name you two more authors who describe the incident as German attack on Soviet 24-th tank brigade. The attack only stopped when the Soviets returned fire. Two more incidents, 23-th and 29-th of September, when Germans opened fire at Soviet forces, and the Soviets had to fight back, knowing well who they were fighting against. Such a good cooperation.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
So name them.
In German sources, this is described as an attack of tanks, who were considered to be Polish tanks, and this is why Germans opened fire to them.
Please note that Soviet T-26 tank looks almost identical to Polish 7 TP tank.
Also - you "forgot" to mention, that both sides sent notes of apology to each other after that incident.
Maybe provide more details on these incidents, so I can find some info about them in my sources ???
On the other hand, there were many incidents when Germans were fighting together with Soviets against Polish forces.
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Here is how this happened according to official Soviet combat report (not memoirs published 35 years after the war):
On 19.09.1939 at 8:30 AM German forces besieging Lwów started an attack (137. Gebirgsjaeger-Regiment) in the southern sector of Polish defensive lines. Reconnaissance battalion of Soviet 24. Tank Brigade (commander of the battalion: Cpt. Alexander Vasilievich Yegorov) found itself trapped on the outskirts of the city, in the middle between Polish and German forces. Germans, considering Soviet tanks that appeared to be Polish tanks, opened artillery and AT fire to those tanks. White flags hoisted by crews of Soviet tanks, did not cause immediate cessation of fire, which is why Soviet tanks also responded with fire. As the result of this incident, Soviet forces lost 3 dead and 4 wounded soldiers, as well as three armoured vehicles damaged (2 BA-10 and 1 BT-7).
And in German sources we read, that they thought that they were fighting against Polish armoured vehicles.
So as you can see, Soviets knew who attacked them, but did not want to fight (they hoisted white flags, hoping for cessation of fire).
Germans, on the other hand, had no idea who were they fighting against. When they finally realized this, they ceased their fire.
On the next day - 20.09.1939 - Germans sent an official note with apologies for that unfortunate incident.
It should be noted, that Poles were also firing to that Soviet battalion (and to Germans who were attacking Polish defensive positions).
So everyone was firing to everyone, but Soviet battalion was in the middle - between Polish defensive lines and German attacking forces.
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