Alternate History: The Munich Agreement

[red_elk]

Did you see "The JEELEN Two-Step?"

It's even funnier:

Non-aggression pact is merely a declaration of neutrality. USSR had similar pacts with Finland, Poland and Japan, during and before WW2.

Oh, and the USSR did not have a neutrality pact wit Poland "during WW II"

USSR had neutrality pacts with Poland and Finland just before war, which according to you, means they were allied.

The USSR also signed a non-agression pact with Japan; that does not make them allies.

--------------------

FWIW, the Soviets had a fantastic weapon against blitzkrieg in Operational Art, or what the Soviets called Deep Battle.

Yes, Triandafillov's deep battle doctrine.

Or where fortifications were long.

I was talking about cost-effectiveness. Spending military budget on building thousands kilometers of fortifications was not the most sensible thing to do for the Soviets.

 

[Agent327]

That's what I just said, a few posts ago. Why you are repeating this?

Because you seem to have misunderstood, obviously.

Then name these treaties, which in your opinion mean that German-Soviet relations can be considered as a military alliance. Or you mean secret protocol to MRP, dividing spheres of influence in Eastern Europe? Soviet-Japanese neutrality pact included similar agreements, dividing spheres of influence in Mongolia and Manchukuo. Usually it's rival powers who make such agreements.

You are unaware of the treaty of Rapallo? Introduction here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Rapallo,_1922

It's not about terminology (BTW, ever wondered why this "post-ww2 term" originated from German words?).
Germans in fact employed Blitzkrieg strategy and tactics. In Soviet case, with thousands kilometers of borders, building country-wide defense lines was a waste of money.

Entirely correct. (Although I'm not sure why you menton it.)

I'll ignore your last post, as it contains nothing new.

Did you see "The JEELEN Two-Step?"

No idea what you are insinuating, but Japan and the USSR did not have a treaty regulating their military and economic collaboration. (Nice try, though.)

FWIW, the Soviets had a fantastic weapon against blitzkrieg in Operational Art, or what the Soviets called Deep Battle. But most of that information was lost in the year leading up to WWII, and they had to re-learn lessons taught to them before during the Civil War. A Deep Battle-ready army might have put up a damn good fight in Belarus and Ukraine in the summer of 1941.

Yes, if only...

I always find it interesting when people can't win an argument, they tend to focus on style - or become plain insulting.

 

[red_elk]

Because you seem to have misunderstood, obviously.

What I have misunderstood, obviously?
You repeated my statement as if I was arguing against it
Not for the first time though.

You are unaware of the treaty of Rapallo? Introduction here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Rapallo,_1922

Make your point.
You think, this agreement is a de-facto declaration of a military alliance between Weimar Republic and USSR? Or something else?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

No idea what you are insinuating, but Japan and the USSR did not have a treaty regulating their military and economic collaboration. (Nice try, though.)

I'm insinuating that you have adopted the position of the people you're arguing against, like you always do.

I always find it interesting when people can't win an argument, they tend to focus on style - or become plain insulting.

I find it interesting when people can't win an argument, they adopt the winning argument as their own.

 

[Agent327]

I'm insinuating that you have adopted the position of the people you're arguing against, like you always do.

Ah, the "changing goalposts argument". Not very to the point, is it? Nice try though.

I find it interesting when people can't win an argument, they adopt the winning argument as their own.

More insinuation... Lack of argument much?

What I have misunderstood, obviously?
You repeated my statement as if I was arguing against it

You were. Nowhere did I say that Russia and Germany had a "military alliance". Those are your words, comrade.

Make your point.
You think, this agreement is a de-facto declaration of a military alliance between Weimar Republic and USSR? Or something else?

My point has been made, but you seem to have missed it.

Really, this is getting tiresome...Might I suggest actually reading a post prior to an effort at witty riposte? You gentlemen have now made several posts without any actual reference to points being discussed earlier. Try focus on issue, not author, please.

 

[red_elk]

You were. Nowhere did I say that Russia and Germany had a "military alliance". Those are your words, comrade.

Well, you said that "Stalin allied himself with Hitler", and when I asked what treaties confirm this alliance, you named Rapallo.
Signed in 1922, when neither Stalin nor Hitler were in power.
So, yes, if you ever had a point in this discussion, you perhaps should make it.

 

[Agent327]

Seriously? Soviet-German collaboration remained in effect practically til Operation Barbarossa - to the beneficial effect of both partners. Or perhaps the issue is you can't imagine a Communist state being allied with a Nazi state? That would be something you'd have in common with many Communists prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement (and they weren't even aware of the secret clauses to that pact). Or perhaps you simply missed the rather obvious brotherly obliteration of independent Poland by both partners?

 

[red_elk]

Seriously? Soviet-German collaboration remained in effect practically til Operation Barbarossa - to the beneficial effect of both partners.

If by collaboration you mean trade partnership, yes.
For example, neutral Sweden also supplied Germany with key strategic resources during WW2.
As for dividing spheres of influence, this is a way to prevent conflicts over disputed areas and keep neutrality.
That was a reason for USSR to divide spheres of influence with Japan, after serious border conflicts with it, and the reason for similar division agreement in MRP.

Or perhaps the issue is you can't imagine a Communist state being allied with a Nazi state?

Yes, it's hard to imagine alliance of a socialist state with a Nazi state, because of ideological reasons and a way how communists were treated by Nazis. Also it's simply counterfactual, since there has never been such alliance.

By "alliance" I mean the most common definition of this word, i.e. military alliance (Axis and Allies of WW2, NATO, etc.). If you use different definition, you should give it here, because I don't understand what you are arguing against.

 

[innonimatu]

More insinuation... Lack of argument much?

Dude, you did it so many times here already that by now your name is synonymous with what Cheesy described.

 

[Lord Baal]

Dude, you did it so many times here already that by now your name is synonymous with what Cheesy described.

It's not known as the "JEELEN two-step" for nothing.

 

[Agent327]

It looks like people have run out of actual arguments...

 

[Domen]

I support most of what JEELEN wrote, but I have no time to argue here and back him up.

However, I must say that some points of Red Elk are also good - to be diplomatic.

 

[Lord Baal]

It looks like people have run out of actual arguments...

It's hard to argue against your own points.

 

[Agent327]

I'd have to agree. It's also hard to argue if people put word into your mouth you never used, but I keep at it.

 

[Domen]

Belarussian historian Vladimir Beshanov calls Russians / Soviets in clear and unambiguous way occupants of Belarus.

Beshanov is a best-selling author of history books in Belarus. His books also have their Polish-language editions.

Vladimir Beshanov is an author of many books, including "Krasnyj Blickrig" ("Red Blitzkrieg").

This book is not only about the Soviet Invasion of Poland in 1939, but also about the Soviet occupation of the Baltic States (chapter "Baltic people with a pistol at their heads") and parts of Romania (chapter "Bessarabia"). One chapter ("Meeting with general Guderian") is also about the joint Soviet-Nazi victory parade in Brest-Litovsk on 22.09.1939. One chapter is ironically titled "Russian style of democracy". Another chapter is ironically titled "Within the family of free nations" (after "liberation" by the Soviet Union). Beshanov's book is clearly not a pro-Polish book (he writes about wrongdoings of Polish authorities to Belarussian people), but it is also by no means a pro-Russian book - it describes actions of the Soviet Union in all "liberated" states as occupation.

Already on page 1 of his book, Beshanov quotes the following statement of Comrade Molotov:

"I saw my task of being a minister of foreign affairs [of the USSR] as a task of extending the boundaries of our Homeland as far as possible. It seems to me that together with Comrade Stalin we have accomplished this task quite well." - W. M. Molotov.

And Beshanov adds his comment to this statement:

"With this one statement already retired Comrade Molotov, recollecting events of the old days, characterized the essence of the Bolshevik internal and foreign politics, their unalterable goal of creating a Worldwide Soviet Republic."

Beshanov on the same page also quotes Stalin who said that Soviet calls for peace, international security, defence of homeland against the Nazi Germany, etc., were all: "Just pulling the wool over their eyes, just pulling the wool... All countries do this." - said Joseph Stalin.

On page 3 of his book, Beshanov quotes another historian - A. Avtorchanov (Абдурахман Гиназович Авторхано&#1074 - who wrote:

"According to theories of psychologic probability, criminals give a wide berth to places where they commited crimes. This is also how Soviet / Russian historians do with the subject of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. When writing about circumstances of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, they give a wide berth to this pact in a very painstaking way. Why? Because by signing the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, Stalin directly invited Hitler to invade him. First of all, he created necessary territorial-strategic conditions favourable for the Germans; secondly, he supplied Hitler with strategic military resources, thirdly he set Soviet Russia at variance with Western Democracies which were trying to sign an anti-Hitler alliance with Russia. The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact solved Hitler's previously tied hands for war against the West, at the same time supplying Germany with essential for waging wars, strategic resources. While pretending neutrality of the Soviet Union, Molotov received a task of supporting Hitler in political way, and Mikoyan - under the banner of "trade exchange" - a task of supporting Hitler in economic way."

Then Beshanov continues with his own comment:

"That mutually favourable cooperation of the Bolsheviks with "Nazi monsters and cannibals", already busy with their war against Western Europe, ensured 1,5 years of peace for the Soviet Union. When all other limits of "friendship" were already exhausted, one crafty fellow [Hitler] knocked the other one [Stalin] in his head, suspecting him of lack of sincerity*. And no German-Soviet peace agreements prevented Hitler from doing so. Stalin, however, was expecting something different. Nearly until his death retired Comrade Molotov was giving a wide berth to the scene of his crime, denying the existence of secret protocols to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Only 8 months before his death, tormented by Felix Chuyev and his own conscience, Molotov reluctantly jerked out: "And maybe they existed?"."

*When writing about this "lack of sincerity" of Stalin, Beshanov is referring to German suspicions about the alleged planned Soviet invasion of Germany - and the preemptive (in their own opinion at least) German invasion that followed.

 

[Domen]

BTW - red elk - you mentioned Polish TV series "Czterej pancerni i pies" about soldiers of LWP (Polish People's Army) and their tank "Rudy 102" - you said that you liked to watch it in your childhood. Recently Germans showed the "new story" of "Rudy 102" tank in their "Generation War" TV series.

Such a frame from "Generation War" - destroyed "Rudy 102":

http://www.wykop.pl/ramka/1560429/ostateczne-falszerstwo-nasze-matki-nasi-ojcowie/

While in original Polish version - it was not destroyed:

Link to video.

 

[Winner]

Can't believe I missed this thread

Anyway, I think it's time for some fun with alternate history:

Spoiler :

This sort of summarizes a Czech AH book which is based on the premise that a generals' clique backed by a coalition of civilian anti-capitulation leaders prevent Beneš from accepting any demands by Germany or the Western powers which would entail loss of Czechoslovak territory.

Here's a brief timeline:

26 Sept - Beneš is given an ultimatum by the military; new government of national unity is formed, lead by Ladislav Rašín.
30 Sept - Munich Treaty signed and delivered to Czechoslovakia; the government ignores it.
1 Oct - German invasion of Czechoslovakia begins. Wehrmacht is entirely unprepared to begin combat operations on such a short notice; having been ordered to change posture for an unopposed occupation of Sudetenland only few days before.
Operation "Freudenthal" spectacularly fails, resulting in a near destruction of German paratrooper formations. The 2nd Army, however, is ordered to advance regardless of this fact. Von Manstein proposes a high-risk alternative to an all-out assault against the heaviest fortification line in Czechoslovakia.
Czechoslovak air force is dispersed and manages to avoid major losses on the first day of the Luftwaffe campaign (which is marred by bad weather and over-confidence). It continues to wage a "guerilla air warfare" against the overwhelming numbers of the Luftwaffe. Czechoslovak bomber force dies with a bang in a series of suicide missions aimed at bombing of the Linz railway hub and Luftwaffe air bases in Silesia.
2-3 Oct - Rundstedt/von Manstein's gamble at circumventing the main fortified line by a surprise push through the mountains. Fails due to poor quality of German tanks, unsuitable terrain, and speedy reaction of the CS 7th Inf. Div., backed by a strong artillery cover.
4-7 Oct - Polish invasion of Záolší/Těšínsko region, spurred by an SS 'false-flag' operation aimed at dragging Poland into the war against Czechoslovakia. Polish strike corps "Waclaw" falls into a trap and is nearly annihilated in the ensuing Czech counterstrike. Poor coordination with the Wehrmacht, whose 2nd Army is reeling from its failed offensives, makes it impossible for Germany to exploit the situation.
8 Oct - using the Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia as an excuse, the USSR invades eastern Poland. Poland mobilizes and withdraws its forces east to face the new threat. Czechoslovak forces do not advance across the Polish border.
Hitler panics at the prospect of the Red Army standing on Germany's border in a few weeks time. He takes personal charge of operations against Czechoslovakia and demands its speedy defeat so that the Carpathian mountain passes are secured before the Red Army can pass through them. The 14th Army is ordered to attack in the south where the terrain seems suitable for tank warfare, despite heavy opposition among the generals.
11 Oct - Anticipating the German attack in south Moravia, the CS general staff devises an operation codenamed "Left Hook" - an attempt to lure the 14th army units into Moravia and then cut them off by a surprise thrust into its left flank from Slovakia.
11-14 Oct - The German attack against the 'Slavonice Line' repulsed. Elements of the 2nd Fast Div. counter-attack and annihilate the 4th Light Division, which is caught totally by surprise. The resulting gap in the German line is exploited and some units of the 2nd and 4th fast divisions advance into Austria. The full extent of the breach remains unknown both to the German and the CS general staff.
15 Oct - "Operation Left Hook" commences, the VIII. Corps advances into Austria. Czechoslovak air force boosted by Soviet fighters and bombers manages to achieve a momentary air superiority over the battlefield. The Vranov reservoir's dam is destroyed; the resulting flooding cuts lines of communication to 2nd Panzer and 29th Motorized divisions in southern Moravia, and almost wipes out the 2nd Light Div. The 3rd Mnt. Div. spread along the Danube is swept out and destroyed in detail by units of the VIII Corps.
16 Oct - Forward units of the 3rd Fast Div. reach the outskirts of Vienna. Hitler is shot dead by his secretary Hossbach. Anti-Nazi coup by the Army launched in Germany.
18 Oct - Czechoslovak army units meet near Krems and surround the whole of the 14th army in south Moravia and in Austria north of Vienna. Linz reached.
20 Oct - Cease fire declared by the new German government. The Wehrmacht begins its withdrawal from Czechoslovakia and redeployment to the Polish border.
24 Oct - the Red Army stops its advance at the Curzon line in order to avoid a general war against the rest of Europe.

(Yes, to say that the scenario is highly optimistic is an understatement, but the book is a reasonably good read and it is very detailed. I am not explaining many of the things described there.)

 

[Domen]

8 Oct - using the Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia as an excuse, the USSR invades eastern Poland.

And Soviet soldiers start to mass rape Polish women even more than they did in historical reality:

Below an excerpt from "Prussian Nights" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (in English translation):

Olsztyn has just been taken.
An hour ago, a sudden strike
Of tanks and cavalry overwhelmed it...
Now the night flares. Burning sugar.
It flames with violet-coloured fire
Over the earth. It seems to simmer,
A trmbling blaze, a lilac shimmer...
Knocks. Rings. A tumult. Then we hear
A moment later, the cry of a girl,
Somewhere from behind a wall,
"I'm not German. I'm not a German.
No. I'm Polish, I'm a Pole!"
Grabbing what comes handy, those
Like-minded lads get in and start-
And oh, what heart
Could well oppose?

Polish strike corps "Waclaw"

I doubt anyone would have called it like this. Why "Waclaw"? "Boleslaw" would have been more suitable (from name of king Boleslaw I Chrobry).

In historical reality, Polish forces which entered Zaolzie after the area was handed over to Poland, was SGO "Śląsk" - here its Ordre de Bataille:

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=15397#p225241

SGO "Śląsk" = Independent Operational Group "Silesia".

There was no such thing like "corps" in Polish Armed Forces. Polish Armed Forces had armies and operational groups - no corps level.

 

[Domen]

Here's a brief timeline:

But you do realize that this story is a total (and extremely over-optimistic as well) fairy tale?

Especially the constant "catching by surprise" of enemy units and "destroying" them.

For example this fragment:

Elements of the 2nd Fast Div. counter-attack and annihilate the 4th Light Division, which is caught totally by surprise.

So why in Poland in 1939 4th Light Division fought against Polish 10th Motorized Brigade but was neither "caught totally by surprise" nor "annihilated" ???

You claim that just "elements" of one Fast Div. would be able to annihilate entire Light Div. Why in reality entire Motorized Brig. did not do this?

24 Oct - the Red Army stops its advance at the Curzon line in order to avoid a general war against the rest of Europe.

Interesting as well. So you assume that the Polish army would not be able to stop the advance of the Red Army before the Curzon Line?

How was the Red Army going to capture the Pripet Marshes, if it was not able to advance in a difficult terrain of Finland against a weaker enemy?

And what "rest of Europe" exactly do you mean? Hungary ??? Why should France defend such Axis Poland as in your scenario against Soviet attack?

==================================================

What I find extremely funny in your description, is how you describe the Wehrmacht as a clumsy and inept bunch led by incompetent idiots, which repeatedly "gets caught by surprise and annihilated" by the Czech Army (apparently an army of super-heroes!), while at the same time the Red Army - which really was a clumsy and inept bunch led by incompetent idiots at that time - is able to defeat the Polish Army and advance up to the Curzon Line!

11 Oct - Anticipating the German attack in south Moravia, the CS general staff devises an operation codenamed "Left Hook" - an attempt to lure the 14th army units into Moravia and then cut them off by a surprise thrust into its left flank from Slovakia.

I see...

So you claim that Czechoslovakians knew how to use Manstein's Sickle Cut style maneuver already before Manstein himself invented it ???

God, I simply love such armchair generals like you! Ones who "invent" brilliant maneuvers 70 years after they were invented...

11-14 Oct - The German attack against the 'Slavonice Line' repulsed.

Interesting alternative history again! But let's check some real history now:

1-2 September 1939 - The German attack against the 'Mlawa Line' (in Poland) repulsed.

What happened later? German Panzer Division "Kempf" bypassed the line, attacking around its eastern flank! But apparently Germans in "alternative reality" invented by our Czechoslovakian friends are 10 times dumber than Germans from historical reality of 1938 - 1939. So according to our Czech friends, Germans would have been frontally attacking strong fortifications, instead of attacking weak spots and bypassing main defences, like they did in realty.

Against such "imaginary dumb version of the Wehrmacht" your "imaginary wise version of Czech Army" would have had a chance to win indeed!

1 Oct Operation "Freudenthal" spectacularly fails, resulting in a near destruction of German paratrooper formations.

You made my day! Like it resulted in a "near destruction" of German paratroopers in Eben-Emael in 1940 ???

Or maybe you mean that "near destruction" of German paratroopers in Crete in 1941 ???

Or those "nearly destroyed" in Norway in 1940 ??? But OK - we all know that "Czech soldiers are the best, they are better than the rest!".

2-3 Oct - Rundstedt/von Manstein's gamble at circumventing the main fortified line by a surprise push through the mountains. Fails due to poor quality of German tanks, unsuitable terrain, and speedy reaction of the CS 7th Inf. Div., backed by a strong artillery cover.

In September 1939 German forces - including 2nd Panzer Division and 4th Light Division - did push through the Beskids, despite strong Polish resistance.

In 1941 German tanks did push through the difficult mountainous terrain in Greece, despite strong Greek resistance.

It is also a well-known fact, that in May 1940 Germans were not able to push through the Ardennes... or wait...

But - as they say - "Czechoslovakian mountains are the best, they are better than the rest!"

The innate quality of Czechoslovakian mountains is, that German tanks cannot cross it (just like in case of the Ardennes ).

and speedy reaction of the CS 7th Inf. Div., backed by a strong artillery cover.

"Speedy reaction" of an Infantry Division against German tanks! Where do I know this from? Well, I know this from Poland in 1939 - during the battle of Pszczyna there was such "speedy reaction" of Polish 6th Inf.Div. against German 5. Pz.Div. Do you know, how that "speedy reaction" ended? I know that Czechs were crazy, but I didn't know that they were as crazy as Polish officers - and also wanted to prove that their infantry was faster than enemy tanks!

You should modify the ending - at Pszczyna it was "speedy reaction" of Polish infantry backed by a strong artillery cover, which failed.

But of course Czech infantry were super-heroes - they could march 3 times faster than Polish infantry, so they would have succeeded!

The 14th Army is ordered to attack in the south where the terrain seems suitable for tank warfare, despite heavy opposition among the generals.

Shall I quote general George Patton now ??? Patton said (more or less, I am quoting from memory, but I can check the exact quote as well - if you want): "There is no such thing like terrain unsuitable for tanks. Tanks can - and should - be used in all kinds of terrain".

But of course Czechs know better than Patton! Czech generals had so many occasions to become experienced in WW2 style warfare!

despite heavy opposition among the generals.

Ah, yes! Once again an alternative reality with no connection to historical reality!

Your "imaginary wannabe Wehrmacht, but a 10 times dumber one than the real one" is opposing sane solutions and advocating suicidal attacks!

The Vranov reservoir's dam is destroyed; the resulting flooding cuts lines of communication to 2nd Panzer and 29th Motorized divisions in southern Moravia, and almost wipes out the 2nd Light Div. The 3rd Mnt. Div. spread along the Danube is swept out and destroyed in detail by units of the VIII Corps.

Oh yes! Czech Supermen are destroying German divisions one after another! Simply serial killers of divisions these Czechs are!

But let's compare this to historical reality:

Do you know when was the first instance when a German armoured-motorized division was destroyed in WW2 ??? That was in 1943 - after the Stalingrad Pocket surrendered (= destruction of divisions inside the pocket). Neither in 1939, nor in 1940, 1941 and 1942 even a single German armoured division was destroyed... In North Africa British forces also did not manage to destroy even a single of Rommel's armoured and motorized divisions before 1943...

And you want to destroy them like sitting ducks, like soap bubbles, in your distorted alternative reality...

Instead of playing alternative scenarios like children who play soldiers, you should have been fighting in 1938, instead of surrendering without a fight because you knew that you stood no chance. You have no reason to assume, that you would have been able to repulse the German invasion alone.

If Poland and Czechoslovakia fought together united vs Germany in 1938, then such a scenario would have been more probable.

==============================================

Edit:

(Yes, to say that the scenario is highly optimistic is an understatement

Oh, at least you do admit this! I did not notice it before, when writing my comments above.

The scenario you quoted is not even "highly optimistic" - it is simply a total fairy tale. Just like this Polish fairy tale below:


Link to video.