Alternate History Thread III

After all, Wilkes secretly wanted to become part of the established government anyways, despite his opinions.

SECRETLY?! You call bribing rotten boroughs and unleashing hordes of supporters to influence elections where he was a candidate SECRETLY wanting to become part of the established government? :p

In OTL the Parliament grudgingly agreed to free him, but in this world George III wanted to strenghthen his weakened authority (after backing down in America), and also due to butterfly effect was even more annoyed with Wilkes, and so he leaned on the Parliament and tried to keep Wilkes in prison. That proved just enough to provoke anarchy.

1770 was a really great year in that regard, and until the 1790s probably the last year when Britain could be destabilized enough. I already listed the notable occurances of that time - in OTL, after 1770 Britain generally begun to recover and come out of crisis, even if at the price of losing the Thirteen Colonies. It might have recovered in this world, so obviously I had to make things just a bit worse, just enough to begin some initial chaos.

The faults you portray George of having did not really effect the British government in the OTL did they?

You are sorely mistaken - most of the political events thus far, at least the domestic ones, are fully OTL, and the King really was responsible for much of it.

In the late 18th century, Britain's government was far from set in stone, it was neither trully parliamentary (as the King retained much power and influence) nor absolute. Royal influence was only reduced to nonsignificance AFTER George III, and even then not completely, even in the 20th century British monarchs managed to influence politics on several occassions.

And yes, for the record, I am still working on Canute stats. ETA: 1-1.5 weeks. Das, would you do me the favor of posting a very minimalist timeline, simply with dates, a colon ( : ) and the major event(s) that occured, with as little elaboration as possible? I want to include it as a short reference guide for any NESers that don't have the inclination to wade through discussion in the old thread.

Are nation backgrounds not enough?

Fine, I'll see what I can do.
 
Thanks das. It's really more for those that don't understand the situation of the past two hundred years than me.

Reservations:

North King: Vijayanagara
ThomAnder: Persia
Insane_Panda: Byzantine Empire
LittleBoots: Leon
shortguy: Greater Lothringen
Wubba360: Egypt
The Farow: Bavaria
Swissempire: Andalusia
Reno: Sweden
Silver: Golden Horde
Israelite: Irish Empire
Kal'thzar: Norse Empire (potentially)
Cuivienen: Zanzibar
Drake: Hungary
Disenfrancised: Genoa (potentially)

Ruleset: 100% Finished
Map: 90% Finished
Stats: 35% Finished

Expected Start Date: September 9-11th

I'll get the stats to you guys when I finish them. Silver, I would assume that considering the ethnic makeup of the Horde at this time, the ruling elite are Sunni Muslim. However, many of the Russians they rule are Orthodox Christian.

EDIT: Regarding Wilkes, I meant that he wanted to be in a major position of power, not just some fringe radical MP.
 
Its a multiethnic, multireligious empire. There are Russians, but there are also Jews and Nestorian Mongols, and pagan Mongols, and various Turkmens and the Caucasian peoples (including the Georgians).
 
They are practicing genocide. ;)

But if you mean religions, they are indeed Sunni Muslim.
 
Here, Thlayli. Hope that's good enough for your purposes.

11th Century: Norse explorers first discover Avalon, but no long-term settlement is established and knowledge about it is lost. Canute unites England, Denmark and Norway; after his death they are divided between his sons, but maintain ties. Schisms divide the Christian Church between Catholicism, the Celtic Rite and the Orthodoxy; Ireland drifts into isolation. Leon predominant in Christian Spain; Toledo captured. The HRE is ascendant. Almoravids raid Ghana, conquer Morocco and Andalusia. Kievan Rus disintegrates. Byzantine resurgence under the Macedonian emperors; Bulgars are conquered, Anatolia and South Italy consolidated, Turks and Normans defeated. Peasant "crusades" mostly fail to reach the Levant. Nevertheless, the Fatimids decline and suffer from civil wars. The Druzes first appear. Seljuk Turks conquer Persia and the Levant. Chola zenith in south India. Paganese zenith.

12th Century: Toltec predominance in Mesoamerica ends; Tollan is sacked, native Mayans resurge around Mayapan. Irish Empire is born, Viking raiders driven off. The Norse Realms (Canutian successor states) are reunited, reforms ensure some degree of unity at the price of decentralization. Sverker unites Sweden, defeats Norse attackers. French Capetians querrel with the powerful Angevin nobles. Leon falls apart, Navarre becomes insecurely hegemonic in Christian Spain. Almoravids lose power, but are replaced by more peaceful Almohads. The Hohenstauffens come to power in the HRE and begin centralization, expand into Poland, querrel with the Pope, defeat the Welfs and the Franco-Hungarian attackers. Venice, Hungary, the Pope, mercenaries and rebels form anti-Byzantine coalition; Byzantines defend succesfully, but are severely weakened. Kievan Rus briefly reunited under Vladimir II Monomakh, later falls apart again. Christian Ethiopia revived. Islamic conquest of India begins. Jurchens conquer northern China, form Jin dynasty, but the Song survive and enter a renaissance in the south. Civil war ends Heian Period in Japan; birth of the Shogunate.

13th Century: Incan Empire emerges. The Irish rediscover Iceland, Greenland, Avalon, establish settlements. Norse civil wars. Failure of French centralization efforts. Leon begins to recover; Aragon unites with Catalonia and Navarre, becomes new Christian Spanish hegemon. Almohads stagnate, collapse, but Andalusia is reunited by the Majardids and the Reconquista is eventually stopped. The HRE survives civil war, French and Mongol invasions. Milan briefly unites Lombardy, but is razed by the Imperials. The Swedes conquer Finland, Estonia, Lettia. Malinese Empire ascends in West Africa, displacing Ghana. The Ducas come to power in the Byzantine Empire, ally with the Mongols, regain lost territories. The Fatimid Empire collapses altogether. Genghis Khan unites the Mongols; the Mongol Empire conquered the Eurasian Steppe, Korea, Jin China, Tibet, Persia and Russia, devastates the Levant and Hungary, but is fought to a grinding halt by the HRE in the west and the Southern Song in China. The Mongol Empire stagnates and eventually disintegrates. The Delhi Sultanate is established in India, attains hegemony in northern India but later falls to civil war. Hojo Shoguns come to power in Japan; thanks to the kamikaze storms, Japan avoids Mongol conquest.

14th Century: The Great Age of Discovery begins; Ireland is joined by the Majardids and the Leonese in the colonization of Avalon; the Leonese utilize chaos and division to conquer Mesoamerica. First Natchez Empire. The Incans unite Peru, but suffer from European-brought diseases. The Norse Empire stagnates, feudal strife increases. Under a new Capetian branch the French finally defeat the Flemings, the Bretons, the Angevins and other rebels, and introduce centralization-aimed reforms; Imperials and the Aragonese fail to stop French ascendance. Leon also surges forth; the Reconquista ends and the three states of Iberia sign an uneasy peace - Leon concentrates on the northern Atlantic, the Majardids conquer Morocco and concentrate on the southern Atlantic, and Aragon concentrates on the Mediterranean. The Hohenstauffens crush rebels, conquer Hungary, the HRE attains hegemony in Central Europe. The Black Death ravages Europe, along with internicine strife weakens the Golden Horde and allows the ascendancy of Muscovy, expansion of Sweden and Galicia. The Byzantine Empire reaches its zenith, reconquers the Levant and Egypt. Zanzibar unites the Swahili city states of East Africa. Delhi reformed under the Tughluqids. Bahmani Sultanate and the Vijayanagara Empire dominate southern India. Yuan China stagnates, falls into civil war, is nearly crushed by the new Min Dynasty in southern China. Srivijaya collapses, is replaced by the Malayuns and the Kadiris.

15th Century: Fall of the old empires, rise of the new ones; considered by many the end of the Middle Ages. Second Natchez Empire fights off Leonese invasion with Andalusian help. Incan Empire recovers. Irish Empire stagnates, is displaced by Leon as chief colonial power. Norse Empire, Brittany, Aquitaine and Genoa join the colonial race. In the Flemish War, France and the HRE collapse, chaos reigns in the former Carolingian territories, the Norse Empire and Sweden both ascend, expand southwards. Eventually new states emerge out of the chaos in France and the HRE; Aquitaine, Bavaria and Austria are particularily important. Aragon declines badly, tries to regain predominance in the Western Mediterranean in a series of wars but fails, enters general and dynastic crisis. Civil war in the Byzantine Empire results in loss of the Levantine and Egyptian gains, but the restored Comnenids initiate renaissance, impose puppet government in Hungary and annex periphereal territories. Galician ascendancy is cut short as Nostradat Khan unites Central Asia and revives the Golden Horde, is barely stopped at Kiev but recaptures the eastern half of Russia. The Mali Empire collapses, is eclipsed by Songhay but partially revived later on. Druzes form the Muwahhidun Empire in Egypt, create powerful military, conquer vast territories but antagonize all neighbours. Zanzibar forges a colonial empire as the Indian states enter general decline and stagnation. Gilanids unite Persia, expel foreign warlords, foster a cultural renaissance, claim Caliphate. Khasarids take over the Yuan Empire, briefly conquer Japan; war with the Min is reintensified, but no decisive results are achieved. The Min build up a great fleet, expand southwards, impose a puppet government in Japan. Ayutthaya ascendant. Malayuns defeat the Kediris, attain local hegemony but remain unstable.

16th Century: The world goes mad.
 
Insane_Panda said:
Very nice timeline. I've got some ambitious plans for Commemnid Byzantium.... ;)

Best not be at the expense of Persia :p (are we allies actually at the start of the nes? aka are there pre set alliances or is everyone free to pick from anew)
 
There are some preset alliances and agreements, that will be posted in the nation stats, and the Alliances section.

Most of them are Vassalage agreements, but there are others as well. Only outright alliances are mentioned...I'd classify the agreement between Persia and Byzantium as an "understanding." ;)
 
Yes - there is no alliance, but they have fairly good working relations.
 
I'm thinking about choosing Min China. ;) What are the chances of them landing in America das/thlayli? :D
 
You could re pick up the Zheng He voyages
 
Swissempire said:
You could re pick up the Zheng He voyages

Gavin Menzies is considered insane by the majority of the historical community ;)

Personally, I doubt that Zheng He went to the Americas as much as I would have loved it... :p
 
I'm actually thinking of a more ah... Columbus esque type voyage :p Not a massive expedition to drain the coffers no ;) Chinese California! A dream come true :cool:
 
What are the chances of them landing in America das/thlayli?

Discovering it is possible; no Zheng He existed, ofcourse, but the Min do have a pretty good naval tradition. But on the other hand, America is way too far, it would be hard to establish a permanent settlement and the actual value of that - as compared to conquering South-East Asia and displacing the entirety of its native population - is probably insufficient.
 
das said:
Discovering it is possible; no Zheng He existed, ofcourse, but the Min do have a pretty good naval tradition. But on the other hand, America is way too far, it would be hard to establish a permanent settlement and the actual value of that - as compared to conquering South-East Asia and displacing the entirety of its native population - is probably insufficient.

Displacing the entirety of the native population? :eek: Impossible with sedentary agricultural civilizations. There are simply too many of them to wipe out entirely; they would simply become slightly different looking Chinese, but not wiped out. And I beg to differ in the first place, because a wide open continent, with the people literally falling dead at your feet conveniently opening up huge tracts of land, most of it exceptionally fertile... Well, it wouldn't be that bad. Especially since they'd be on the gold-bearing side of the New World...

I'd say that if they could find a decent cross-current (admittedly not an easy task), then they would certainly attempt settlement.
 
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