1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Alternative Map for DOC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Bautos42, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    tumblr_inline_oglysfPiY71to3wur_540.png
     
  2. Darnokthemage

    Darnokthemage Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    There should be a horse resource near Stockholm as horse production and cult was very important for Old Uppsala.
     
  3. Steb

    Steb King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    838
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal
    Looking at the Mexico resource map, I feel there should be an oil in the Gulf of Mexico off Louisiana/Texas/Mississippi? It's a major oil production area.

    (That would have consequences for the American UHV but that is easily taken care of later; I think accurate resource distribution is more important)
     
    trevor likes this.
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    That makes sense, however as with the old map it is a deliberate choice to encourage control of Finland to obtain access to Horses, and because Sweden's most iconic cavalry (Hakkapeliitta) is from Finland.

    Makes sense. UHV goals and the like should be adjusted to the map and not the other way around.
     
    trevor likes this.
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    New resources!
    - Jade: +1 commerce (-1 production, +3 commerce with Quarry), +1 happiness for 3 cities
    - Opium: +1 commerce (+3 commerce with Plantation), +1 happiness for 3 cities
    - Rubber: +1 production (+2 production with Plantation)
    - Salt: +1 commerce (+1 food, -1 production, +2 commerce), +1 health for 3 cities

    Rubber and Jade in Mesoamerica:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0346.JPG


    Rubber in South America:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0347.JPG


    Salt in West Africa:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0348.JPG


    Salt in Europe:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0349.JPG


    Salt in northeast Africa:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0350.JPG


    Salt and Opium in the Middle East:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0351.JPG


    Opium and Jade in Central Asia:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0352.JPG


    Jade in India and Burma:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0353.JPG


    Salt and Jade in China:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0354.JPG


    Jade in New Zealand:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0355.JPG


    These are just the results of my preliminary searches, and far from entirely accurate or complete, especially in the case of Salt.

    Also, Opium would spread to India in the Middle Ages and then later to Southeast Asia (Burma is important here) and China and even later to the new world (e.g. Colombia). Rubber would mainly spread to the Congo, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. On the other hand, the Jade deposits in China proper should expire at some point, although I am not sure when exactly.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  6. Steb

    Steb King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    838
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal
    1. Very nice!

    2. Maybe the US should get salt in Western New York State and/or around the Great Salt Lake.

    3. Isn't Mesoamerica getting a little too resource-dense? Might be good to spread them out a bit.

    4. Tasmania is smaller than in the original map, is that intended?

    5. Can't wait for someone to make a Belgian civilization so we can go to the Congo and brutally exploit the locals in the rubber plantations ...
     
    Lokki242 likes this.
  7. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2015
    Messages:
    483
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hanseong, Great Korean Empire
    Is founding Hangzhou supposed to be discouraged (i.e., found Shanghai instead)? I mean, the jade there in Eastern China. Or is Hangzhou supposed to be somewhere else?
     
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    I actually did the former, only forgot to document it.

    I agree, but I am not sure what to do about it.

    No, I have never touched that part of the map, suggestions welcome.

    You mean Hangzhou is the plot with the Jade?
     
  9. ozqar

    ozqar King

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    717
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    My whole point was that that (currently incense-free) spot blocks Veracruz. So if the plan is to eventually turn Monte Alban into ruins, then that works. I'd still imagine that settling an additional city west of there (the currently incense-free spot), eg, Acapulco, would be advantageous, but I also don't think it's the end of the world and can still be done if Monte Alban becomes ruins.

    Really cool. With salt, will the health benefit become obsolete at some point, eg, with refrigeration? And will opium have any undesired effects (eg, unhealthiness with coffee house?).

    Yeah, I'm realizing that too. The rubber next to Tenochtitlan could be placed in Central America. Mesoamerican jade was mined from what would be the mayan region (2nd site can be in California), so it's also good if the Aztecs need to conquer or trade with those areas to get it.

    Edit: To clarify, I mean that the jade near Guadalajara and the rubber near Mexico City should both be moved to Central America. The rubber and the jade in the mayan areas can stay as they are.

    UHV1: Acquire X rubber resources through congresses.
    UHV2: Don't break your 1 city into two different countries.
    UHV3: Conquer all of Europe... through diplomacy.
     
  10. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,734
    Doesn't Tibet have a big salt industry? Or are salt lakes not counted?
     
  11. Darnokthemage

    Darnokthemage Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    There should be a salt resource east of the north german horses that would represent the rich salt resources of Lunenburg in Germany.
     
    1SDAN and Leoreth like this.
  12. trevor

    trevor Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Messages:
    262
    Shouldn't there be a connection from the Tarim Basin to the Fergana Valley?
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    That is the plan, and in such a case I think both Acapulco and Veracruz become possible if desired.

    The expiration tech makes sense. I have yet to associate negative effects with resources but doing so via a building does not seem like the right way. Building effects are not yet implemented for the new resources at all.

    Another candidate to be (re)moved is the Cotton imo.

    They are. Tibet and the Himalayas in general make sense for Salt.

    It opens up later in the game.
     
    ozqar and trevor like this.
  14. FinalLegendZero

    FinalLegendZero Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    534
    When you say this, do you mean for the new resources specifically, or in general? Because we already have negative effects associated with certain resources, and it's done via building. Specifically, Aluminum gives 1 unhealth with an Industrial Park, Coal gives 1 unhealth with a Railway Station, Oil gives 1 unhealth with either of the above buildings and 2 unhealth with both, and Banana, Sugar, and Wine each give 1 unhealth with a Distillery.
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  15. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,734
    Thanks, only reason I know about that is because I did a bit of research a while back while looking into the proposed west tibet city.

    Speaking of west tibetan city, I didn't add that in CMC. I'm not exactly sure who did, but @citis is my default scapegoat.
     
  16. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,734
    What if Opium and other addictive resources such as Tobacco gave +2 Happiness, but cities and civilizations that had access to them in the past but don't anymore give -1 Happiness?
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    That's true, but these buildings give a different benefit from the same resource so you can actively decide between the production/commerce and the bad health. However if say Coffeehouses give negative health with Opium it takes away from the positive effects of Coffee, Tea etc.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    trevor likes this.
  18. trevor

    trevor Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Messages:
    262
    Opium could give unhealth to a city with a drug trade 'corporation' in exchange for gold.
     
  19. ozqar

    ozqar King

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    717
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    That's great :)

    I understand that jade and rubber are more readily associated to mesoamerican civilizations, but they were both imported from southern Mesoamerica into the Aztec lands. They're not native to the region. Cotton, on the other hand, is native to that area and originally domesticated in the region - hence my proposal to place it there. I was also proposing to eventually change the cotton resource into a sugar resource. Sugar and cotton are both much more important currently than jade or rubber. So, the "realistic" argument would be to move jade and/or rubber to Central America. For gameplay reasons you might want to do things differently, but I think it's a minor detail at this point - at least the resources are somewhere in the general area.

    With all this resource talk (and the new resource effects), I'm wondering how will you balance limiting happiness effects (and other benefits) to only some cities with a larger map with more civs? Ie, you post that jade will give 1 happiness to three cities, but I can think that that will hardly be enough for a large, late-game empire. Will buildings increase resource reach? Or perhaps have specific techs increase the number of cities reached for certain resources? Maybe each resource tile could have an associated "number of resource instances" unique to its site, so for jade, each site would account for 3 jades (since you say that it will give happiness to three cities). I imagine agricultural techs could increase the number of agro-commodities, so that a single plantation or farm can bring benefits to more cities (which would be extremely realistic) and with extractives maybe random and scripted events such as "we found additional deposits" could serve a similar purpose.

    Another question / suggestion / thinking out loud point - currently a large share of commodities are produced industrially. The best examples are synthetic textile fibers and synthetic rubber, which both account for about 70% of their respective markets (ie, synthetic rubber is 70% and natural rubber 30% of total rubber market). Synthetics basically are all made of oil, so it would be very cool if factories could provide some of these resources - perhaps only when with access to oil?.

    Maybe inspiration for new resources? I know you'll want to limit the number of things on the map, but ideas don't hurt. More of these could come in handy with the bigger map and resource system.
    Materials, minerals, etc: Tin*, Lead*, Mercury*, Phosphorous, Gypsum, Niter, Sulfur, Natural gas, Clay, Sand, Timber, Hemp, Bamboo
    Food: Barley/sorghum, Soybeans (combined with oilseeds in general, ie, rape, mustard, etc), Palm trees (representing oil palm and coconut combined), Apples/stone fruits, Citrus, Tomatoes, Pineapple, Honey, Seaweed... and it would be cool to have more than 1 type of fish, eg, maybe cod and tuna (ie, one whitefish and one oily fish)... or it could be one freshwater (eg tilapia) vs one saltwater, or 3 types even :)

    And after my earlier thought of having agave as a very region-specific resource, I thought of some others: Maple, Bison, Agave, Avocado, Llama, Mate, Coca, Dates, Yak / Water buffalo, Kola nut (my list is very americas-centric, but others could pitch in for other regions)

    * Have you seen about these metals of antiquity?
     
    Jarlaxe Baenre and 1SDAN like this.
  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    Two more:
    - Obsidian: +1 production (+2 commerce with Mine)
    - Rare Earths: +1 commerce (+3 commerce with Mine)

    Obsidian in Mesoamerica:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0356.JPG


    Rare Earths in China and Mongolia:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0357.JPG


    Obsidian exists in Mesoamerica, Ethiopia, New Guinea and New Zealand. The intent is to make this another prerequisite for the earliest tier of military units (i.e. Spearman and Swordsman) but not later units like Heavy Swordsman and Crossbowman. This way deliberately metal deprived civilisations can still have a greater unit variety. Not sure what to do with the Inca in that regard. I know that other obsidian deposits exist but I'd like to limit its placement for this particular purpose. If there is another source that saw significant historical use let me know.

    Rare Earths in real life are required for many electronics and specialised machinery (e.g. EMRs, lasers) as well as battery technology. I included it with the intention to make it either a requirement or an accelerating resource for modern buildings and wonders (e.g. Solar Plants) and to include it in the Computer Industry corporation. It also ties in with the late game expansion that is also planned. I think everything that expands on the modern era is good for the game and there are few resources that come into play this late. Deposits are in China, Mongolia, India, Sri Lanka, Australia, Madagascar, Tanzania, South Africa, Congo, Brazil, USA, Ukraine, Kola peninsula, Sweden and Greenland.

    There is only one further resource I am planning to add at this point, although a technical limitation needs to be overcome first (I hit the limitation on resource icons in the game, but other mods have solved that). This resource is going to be Millet, an alternative cereal that is widespread in arid regions. It can also represent Sorghum and will mostly replace existing sources of Wheat in the Sahel zone, Middle East and India.

    That's a fair argument. The thing is mostly that there is just not enough space in Central America to move additional resources there. It is either having them in Mexico or not having them at all. Considering that these resources are not represented most anywhere else on the map, I'd rather have them considering their significance also in Aztec culture. For the colonial era, I could even see them expire to make room for e.g. the Sugar resource you suggested (as neither rubber cultivation nor jade mining are relevant industries in modern Mexico). As for the Cotton, I see the desire to represent the origin of the plant, but again this is a resource that is already widely represented on the map and will get its spawns elsewhere in Mexico later, so I find it easier to sacrifice than its alternatives.

    I addressed this in the thread for this feature a couple of days ago, but in my mind this problem is mostly the intended effect. In general, immediate happiness from resources should be limited. In particular, the happiness provided from rare resources like Jade should be limited. If it wasn't, its inclusion could not be justified due to global maximum happiness concerns. I am not completely opposed to increasing resource output with technology, but there as well I prefer to give advantages from technology through other means, like happiness generating civics or buildings.

    As of now, the effect of the Industrial Park is meant to represent industrial products based on Oil and the like. But I have some plans for that in the future that integrate into the corporation system (or rather, intend to replace the current corporation system to orient it toward this purpose).

    I could see some of those, but my goals are more limited at the moment. This map already comes with a rather aggressive expansion of the number of existing resources, and I would like to observe the effects of that first. However, anything that fills a specific geographical niche (for example, Llamas) without affecting the rest of the world much is a possibility.
     
    ozqar, Publicola, trevor and 3 others like this.

Share This Page