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Alternative Map for DOC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Bautos42, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    What if Opium and other addictive resources such as Tobacco gave +2 Happiness, but cities and civilizations that had access to them in the past but don't anymore give -1 Happiness?
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth That's rough buddy Moderator

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    That's true, but these buildings give a different benefit from the same resource so you can actively decide between the production/commerce and the bad health. However if say Coffeehouses give negative health with Opium it takes away from the positive effects of Coffee, Tea etc.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    trevor likes this.
  3. trevor

    trevor Chieftain

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    Opium could give unhealth to a city with a drug trade 'corporation' in exchange for gold.
     
  4. ozqar

    ozqar Chieftain

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    That's great :)

    I understand that jade and rubber are more readily associated to mesoamerican civilizations, but they were both imported from southern Mesoamerica into the Aztec lands. They're not native to the region. Cotton, on the other hand, is native to that area and originally domesticated in the region - hence my proposal to place it there. I was also proposing to eventually change the cotton resource into a sugar resource. Sugar and cotton are both much more important currently than jade or rubber. So, the "realistic" argument would be to move jade and/or rubber to Central America. For gameplay reasons you might want to do things differently, but I think it's a minor detail at this point - at least the resources are somewhere in the general area.

    With all this resource talk (and the new resource effects), I'm wondering how will you balance limiting happiness effects (and other benefits) to only some cities with a larger map with more civs? Ie, you post that jade will give 1 happiness to three cities, but I can think that that will hardly be enough for a large, late-game empire. Will buildings increase resource reach? Or perhaps have specific techs increase the number of cities reached for certain resources? Maybe each resource tile could have an associated "number of resource instances" unique to its site, so for jade, each site would account for 3 jades (since you say that it will give happiness to three cities). I imagine agricultural techs could increase the number of agro-commodities, so that a single plantation or farm can bring benefits to more cities (which would be extremely realistic) and with extractives maybe random and scripted events such as "we found additional deposits" could serve a similar purpose.

    Another question / suggestion / thinking out loud point - currently a large share of commodities are produced industrially. The best examples are synthetic textile fibers and synthetic rubber, which both account for about 70% of their respective markets (ie, synthetic rubber is 70% and natural rubber 30% of total rubber market). Synthetics basically are all made of oil, so it would be very cool if factories could provide some of these resources - perhaps only when with access to oil?.

    Maybe inspiration for new resources? I know you'll want to limit the number of things on the map, but ideas don't hurt. More of these could come in handy with the bigger map and resource system.
    Materials, minerals, etc: Tin*, Lead*, Mercury*, Phosphorous, Gypsum, Niter, Sulfur, Natural gas, Clay, Sand, Timber, Hemp, Bamboo
    Food: Barley/sorghum, Soybeans (combined with oilseeds in general, ie, rape, mustard, etc), Palm trees (representing oil palm and coconut combined), Apples/stone fruits, Citrus, Tomatoes, Pineapple, Honey, Seaweed... and it would be cool to have more than 1 type of fish, eg, maybe cod and tuna (ie, one whitefish and one oily fish)... or it could be one freshwater (eg tilapia) vs one saltwater, or 3 types even :)

    And after my earlier thought of having agave as a very region-specific resource, I thought of some others: Maple, Bison, Agave, Avocado, Llama, Mate, Coca, Dates, Yak / Water buffalo, Kola nut (my list is very americas-centric, but others could pitch in for other regions)

    * Have you seen about these metals of antiquity?
     
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  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth That's rough buddy Moderator

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    Two more:
    - Obsidian: +1 production (+2 commerce with Mine)
    - Rare Earths: +1 commerce (+3 commerce with Mine)

    Obsidian in Mesoamerica:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0356.JPG


    Rare Earths in China and Mongolia:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0357.JPG


    Obsidian exists in Mesoamerica, Ethiopia, New Guinea and New Zealand. The intent is to make this another prerequisite for the earliest tier of military units (i.e. Spearman and Swordsman) but not later units like Heavy Swordsman and Crossbowman. This way deliberately metal deprived civilisations can still have a greater unit variety. Not sure what to do with the Inca in that regard. I know that other obsidian deposits exist but I'd like to limit its placement for this particular purpose. If there is another source that saw significant historical use let me know.

    Rare Earths in real life are required for many electronics and specialised machinery (e.g. EMRs, lasers) as well as battery technology. I included it with the intention to make it either a requirement or an accelerating resource for modern buildings and wonders (e.g. Solar Plants) and to include it in the Computer Industry corporation. It also ties in with the late game expansion that is also planned. I think everything that expands on the modern era is good for the game and there are few resources that come into play this late. Deposits are in China, Mongolia, India, Sri Lanka, Australia, Madagascar, Tanzania, South Africa, Congo, Brazil, USA, Ukraine, Kola peninsula, Sweden and Greenland.

    There is only one further resource I am planning to add at this point, although a technical limitation needs to be overcome first (I hit the limitation on resource icons in the game, but other mods have solved that). This resource is going to be Millet, an alternative cereal that is widespread in arid regions. It can also represent Sorghum and will mostly replace existing sources of Wheat in the Sahel zone, Middle East and India.

    That's a fair argument. The thing is mostly that there is just not enough space in Central America to move additional resources there. It is either having them in Mexico or not having them at all. Considering that these resources are not represented most anywhere else on the map, I'd rather have them considering their significance also in Aztec culture. For the colonial era, I could even see them expire to make room for e.g. the Sugar resource you suggested (as neither rubber cultivation nor jade mining are relevant industries in modern Mexico). As for the Cotton, I see the desire to represent the origin of the plant, but again this is a resource that is already widely represented on the map and will get its spawns elsewhere in Mexico later, so I find it easier to sacrifice than its alternatives.

    I addressed this in the thread for this feature a couple of days ago, but in my mind this problem is mostly the intended effect. In general, immediate happiness from resources should be limited. In particular, the happiness provided from rare resources like Jade should be limited. If it wasn't, its inclusion could not be justified due to global maximum happiness concerns. I am not completely opposed to increasing resource output with technology, but there as well I prefer to give advantages from technology through other means, like happiness generating civics or buildings.

    As of now, the effect of the Industrial Park is meant to represent industrial products based on Oil and the like. But I have some plans for that in the future that integrate into the corporation system (or rather, intend to replace the current corporation system to orient it toward this purpose).

    I could see some of those, but my goals are more limited at the moment. This map already comes with a rather aggressive expansion of the number of existing resources, and I would like to observe the effects of that first. However, anything that fills a specific geographical niche (for example, Llamas) without affecting the rest of the world much is a possibility.
     
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  6. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

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    I don't know much about the region, but it seems Tasmania should at least be expanded by 1 tile west to make it equivalent to the current map.
    There goes my UP idea for Teotihuacan...

    The Inca get copper, so it's not much of a problem, is it? But Wikipedia says that "in Chile obsidian tools from Chaitén Volcano have been found as far away as in Chan-Chan 400 km (250 mi) north of the volcano and also in sites 400 km south of it" (note: not the same Chan-Chan) so there could be some obsidian in Chile.

    I like the Rare Earth, it's very unexpected. What tech will reveal it?
     
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  7. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    Yes, exactly. At least that's how I see it. (I may be wrong though so there's that...)
     
  8. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    In fact, in this map Shanghai, Nanjing and Hangzhou make up a triangle. Nanjing is 2W to Shanghai, and Hangzhou is 1S1W to Shanghai, 1S1E to Nanjing.

    So if you settle Nanjing or Shanghai, then you can't settle Hangzhou.

    By the way, I suggest that it would be more exact to add a tea or silk on Hangzhou tile, but not Jade.
     
  9. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    Leo, do you plan to make a new branch in github, to develop this new map online? It may be more convienient for us to suggest. For now, I can't add these new resourses on recent version of DoC.
     
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  10. Lokki242

    Lokki242 El Secretario

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    I think you could oup a rare earth in Quebec, the province is a leading exporter or various rare minerals
     
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  11. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

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    The way I see it Hangzhou would be where the jade is or 1W of the pearls and Shanghai would be 1N of clams or 1E of stone. But 1E of stone is getting a bit far from Shanghai, problem is Shanghai and Hangzhou are pretty much on top of each other IRL. I'd say 1W of pearls HZ and 1W of fish SH would be most accurate but obviously not happening.
     
  12. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    1N of clams is Yancheng, and 1E of stone is Lianyungang.

    Shanghai and Nanjing all settle on the south bank of the Yangtze River, and Hangzhou settles on the north bank of Qiantang River. If Shanghai settles on north of the Yangtze River, it will be very weird.
     
  13. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

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    Quebec produces a lot of minerals, but I don't think we produce any of the rare earths specifically in any significant amounts.
     
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  14. netadvocat

    netadvocat Chieftain

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    This new map is absolutely amazing! I cant wait to play it! Thanks to everybody, who is contributing.

    I have a minor geographical suggestion for the alpine region:

    It seems, that the first tile directly east of the Alps is a Plain-Tile. Since this area would represent the Area of Carinthia, maybe also North-West Slovenia, maybe parts of North-East Italy and West Styria (all hilly, partially mountainous, partially heavily forested terrain), another forested hill (as one tile above) would best represent the area.
     
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  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth That's rough buddy Moderator

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    True.

    It was a good idea, but I think all Mesoamerican civs have this problem. Find solace in the fact that it will be a long time until this map is ready to play.

    Yeah, I read that too, but was wondering whether the copper is enough, so I didn't place any.

    Yeah, it's genuinely scarce resource in the modern world that has applications in many currently relevant technologies, so I'm surprised that no mod that I know currently has it (the art is C2C's Titanium, funnily enough). The resource is currently revealed by Metallurgy and made accessible with Electronics.

    No, that makes sense. I read that the Yangtze delta was a historical source of Jade so I placed the resource there without giving much thought to city locations. Looks like we need to find a way to accomodate Hangzhou.

    I do, but it will take a while. I first wanted to get my final version of the map out there. This includes some changes to the available options (like the resources I have just added, but there will also be additions for terrain types and features). If these additions come out in parallel with other suggestions, those suggestions quickly come out of date because they do not take new terrain types etc. into account. I also want to avoid people making suggestions for areas where I already have plans to avoid unneccessary collision between those ideas (instead the suggestion should be made as a diff to my changes).

    Judging from past experiences even with the explicit request not to do so suggestions will likely crop up immediately after the branch is pushed. I would prefer a more orderly course of events.

    In the meantime, you have to use the base map and work from there. I understand that it is getting progressively out of date but for most suggestions it should still be serviceable.
     
  16. Bautos42

    Bautos42 Chieftain

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    If we're adding as many new resources, I think we should also add amber to the map, as it was a quite important trade commodity in Europe. Gameplaywise, the civs that would mainly profit from this resource would be Germany, Scandinavia, Poland and maybe Russia. The additional happiness and commerce migth really benefit those civs, considering that they are not supposed to be colonising like the western european civs. Furthermore, central Europe has little vaiety of luxury resources, adding amber would relive the situation. As amber should be considered a maritime resource, this would also make those civs more powerful without crowding the area with additional land resources, reducing the amount of conventional improvements. When I designed this map, I actually planned to add amber, but later removed it again in order to limit the aviable resources in game. Hence I decided to only add those resources that I considered essential, namely olives, cocoa and potatoes. As this issue has been adressed, I see no reason not to add amber. Another resource that migth be added, although this is far less important, migth be citrus fruits.

    Concerning Tasmania, I deliberately reduced it in size, as I felt it to be oversized on the current map. As I did not feel it to be as important for a city to be placed there, I decided against having Tasmania being larger. Note that the amount of workable tiles remains unchanged, as I removed the mountain on Tasmania. But if there is a reason why Tasmania should have 4 tiles, I see no reason not to increase it in size.
     
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  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth That's rough buddy Moderator

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    Yes, I had also considered amber, but my research on where it is found outside of the Baltic Sea came to insufficient results.

    About Tasmania, I honestly need to look at some maps to get a sense of what would be right there.
     
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  18. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    While we're on the topic of resources, PLEASE ADD TIN.

    When making the Hittites, I was so annoyed that I couldn't represent the importance of their Tin.

    Perhaps resources that require either Iron or Copper could instead require either Iron or both Copper and Tin
     
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  19. star15389

    star15389 Chieftain

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    Someone suggested adding opium before and I remember suggesting that Germany get access to it to represent their leadership in industrial chemistry and give them at least some luxuries. Logic applies even more strongly to Dye.

    Will Rubber be required to build tanks and aircraft? It probably should be. Will it possible to get access to rubber without owning any tropical tiles, as with Germany and America's massive synthetic rubber programs in World War II?
     
  20. Bautos42

    Bautos42 Chieftain

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    This could be represented by rubber giving a production bonus to these units: If you have no access to natural rubber, you have to synthesize it, hence the production cost goes up.

    Amber should probably be abundant in the Baltic Sea, with some isolated sources at the Nort Sea, Hispaniola, the eastern USA near New Jersey, the Ukraine and Burma. (To represent the non-baltic varieties, amber could be implemented as both a naval and land resource, similar to oil.)
     

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