Alternative Map for DOC

I agree with this perspective, and I have plans for additional terrain types in the future to represent this better.

However, when creating a resized map the first goal should be resizing only, while keeping the decisions about climate and vegetation from the old map the same. If we change everything at the same time it will become much harder to get each of these aspects right.
How about the creation of a new CityNameManager file? Would adjusting the map to allow geographically-accurate city names be better than making the CNM file fit the map with reduced regard for the importance of the cities that would make it to the file? Soon, we'll have to deal with highly-important cities being too close to each other to coexist (e.g. New York vs Philadelphia, Hong Kong vs Guangzhou, Sevilla vs Cordoba) and names being shared by cities far away from each other (e.g. Hyderabad in Pakistan and India, Birmingham in America and England, Merida in Mexico and Colombia).
 
I'm already thinking about this. My current thinking is that even though it will take some time until a new map will be included into the mod, we can already start with some of the work so these efforts can be parallelised. The most important tasks that can easily be crowdsourced are city name maps and stability maps. For the latter, I think I need to have a stronger involvement because they impact the intended design, and also I'd like to make some changes here so let's defer that.

When it comes to city names, I think this map is large enough to abandon the idea that different cities can be on the same tile. This seems insignificant but actually makes the whole endeavour a lot easier, because now we can only create one city name map for all languages instead of one one for each language (like in SoI for those who are familiar with it). So it's not necessary anymore to cross reference dozens of maps to make sure everything is aligned, and people can view each other's suggestions in the same place.

First I thought I'd wait for Bautos to make further edits, but I'm probably going ahead and post a city name map spreadsheet on Google docs soon to start developing this. I will likely end up making small edits to the final map anyways, and there are already suggestions from other people coming in, so the map will be in flux for a while. However, I would like to give Bautos the chance to communicate his intentions about the most important cities (at least) first, because I assume the map is designed around that.
 
Did you adjust SettlerMaps.py for the new size of 150x80? The same has to be done for WarMaps.py and CityNameManager.py.

CitynameManager, Settlermaps, Warmaps and Regionmap. And 2 values in the Consts.py.
The CNM, settlermaps and warmaps have just placeholder values. I already did a rough version of the Regionmap. And adjusted the spawn locations in Areas.py.
I have an update pending which allow exporting of the RegionMap, like you already can with the Settler- and Warmaps. This will make developing the map a little easier.

I attached some python files which will make the game run without python errors. Unpack it in the Assets/Python folder of the mod. (Make sure to have backups if you want to play the normal maps)
 

Attachments

I think the new map also leaves room for some additional regions. Let me think about it.
 
I have two concerns as of the moment: Florence and Korea.

1) I want to fit Florence in Italy because it's historically very important (afaik). But it would need Rome to be shifted 1 tile south. Would it be fine to do so? Photo of how it's gonna look like is attached here.

2) Can Korea be enlarged pretty much like Japan? Like add one tile width and height. Maybe we can fit in a third city like Busan for that, or maybe more land to be improved instead, especially for cottage economy.
 

Attachments

I've do some adjust in China. Such as the shape of Yellow River and Zhujiang River, add Qiantang River and Min River, Some adjust of resourses and plot type in Xinjiang, Tibet, Sichuan and Manchuria. Also pre-placed cities in China, and make China core area fit this map. This is just elementary changes.

Spoiler :
Manchuria
104hwmb.jpg


Yellow River
2gsldf6.jpg


Yangtze River and Zhujiang River
29wsjg5.jpg


Xinjiang
30kcepx.jpg


Tibet
k2moie.jpg
 

Attachments

Last edited:
I also fixed the Philippine archipelago since it looks weird for me and as a Filipino it bothers me somehow. :lol:

PS: Sorry for some of the unknown civ colors: I changed a bunch of them thru a module in my local copy of the game. :)

I have two concerns as of the moment: Florence and Korea.

1) I want to fit Florence in Italy because it's historically very important (afaik). But it would need Rome to be shifted 1 tile south. Would it be fine to do so? Photo of how it's gonna look like is attached here.

2) Can Korea be enlarged pretty much like Japan? Like add one tile width and height. Maybe we can fit in a third city like Busan for that, or maybe more land to be improved instead, especially for cottage economy.

I really like what you did to the Philippines, I'll implement these changes as soon as I can. One thing, though. Considering the size of the Philippines, I'd opt for a two cities setup, probably Davao and Manila, therefore, the Copper should be moved to a tile where it can be worked by at least one of those two cities. (Realism is great, but we should always think of gameplay, and having the copper out of reach of those cities would only make them sub-par. Generally, Korea and Indonesia have to be reworked again, as I made them too small (although, I think two cities for Korea are enough)

Concerning Florence, I think the tile added to Italy makes Italy look weird. Just place Florence one tile north. This would prevent having Florence and Milan at the same time, but having both cities would be a bad idea anyways, as this would rob those cities of some much needed space.

By the way, I've already made an initial version of the city placements. The screenshots gallery, as well as the savefile, can be found here. :)

This savegame is based on yesterday's latest commit (most recent commit in link) rather than today. Not sure if still compatible, haven't tested yet, but since Leo modified C++ header files in the DLL, I doubt it's still compatible.

I've done something similar already, as I designed the entire map around what I considered the 'canonical city placement'. (I.e. there always can be Lübeck instead of Hamburg or Florence instead of Milan, but generally there are similar same spots for cities to appear in game). While your take often agrees with what I envisioned, there are other notable changes, particularly in In north America. I think you got the geography wrong, I.e. some cities like Vancouver or New York are far from where they should be.

Is this the resource placement from before the Columbian exchange? I noticed that you haven't placed those new resources outside of their places of origin.

Did you adjust SettlerMaps.py for the new size of 150x80? The same has to be done for WarMaps.py and CityNameManager.py.

Yes, but I already completed resource-spawns. This scenario is supposed to be a 3000BC scenario. Personally, I think focus should be on this scenarion, the other two scenarios can be created later on.

CitynameManager, Settlermaps, Warmaps and Regionmap. And 2 values in the Consts.py.
The CNM, settlermaps and warmaps have just placeholder values. I already did a rough version of the Regionmap. And adjusted the spawn locations in Areas.py.
I have an update pending which allow exporting of the RegionMap, like you already can with the Settler- and Warmaps. This will make developing the map a little easier.

I attached some python files which will make the game run without python errors. Unpack it in the Assets/Python folder of the mod. (Make sure to have backups if you want to play the normal maps)

You might not want to invest as much time into these, as apart from the CNM, Warmaps and Stability maps (which are just placeholders adjusted in size), I have already (mostly) updated all python files (I'll have to adjust the region map to some changes I recently made and there are some bugs with resource spawns, the spawn area, barbarians, etc. already work fine). With the CNM I'd wait until the changes to the map are final)

Any suggestions where I could upload these files, they are too big for an attachment and I do not have much experience with that.
 
1) I want to fit Florence in Italy because it's historically very important (afaik). But it would need Rome to be shifted 1 tile south. Would it be fine to do so? Photo of how it's gonna look like is attached here.
Currently you already have to choose between Milan and Florence, which is fine considering the scale of either map. Having Milan in 3000 BC and 1700 AD and Florence in 600 AD is fine imo.

Also, please convert bitmaps to a compressed format in the future, that was a 4 MB image download :lol:

I really like what you did to the Philippines, I'll implement these changes as soon as I can. One thing, though. Considering the size of the Philippines, I'd opt for a two cities setup, probably Davao and Manila, therefore, the Copper should be moved to a tile where it can be worked by at least one of those two cities. (Realism is great, but we should always think of gameplay, and having the copper out of reach of those cities would only make them sub-par.
Agreed.

Generally, Korea and Indonesia have to be reworked again, as I made them too small (although, I think two cities for Korea are enough)
Great, looking forward to it. I think Korea is best with Pyongyang and Seoul in roughly accurate positions, but it would be great if they were not as cramped in this map as they are in the current one. No player would found those cities for optimal output, and I only found Pyongyang for roleplaying.

I've done something similar already, as I designed the entire map around what I considered the 'canonical city placement'. (I.e. there always can be Lübeck instead of Hamburg or Florence instead of Milan, but generally there are similar same spots for cities to appear in game).
I'd have taken the same approach, but would you mind creating a map where those city locations are annotated as labels for reference? It would help understanding your vision for the map in some locations.

Yes, but I already completed resource-spawns. This scenario is supposed to be a 3000BC scenario. Personally, I think focus should be on this scenarion, the other two scenarios can be created later on.
Again, labels for the intended spawn locations would help a lot. It's great that you already have everything in Python, but there is an advantage to seeing everything in one map.

Any suggestions where I could upload these files, they are too big for an attachment and I do not have much experience with that.
Github! Fork the main mod, and paste your changes into it.
 
You might not want to invest as much time into these, as apart from the CNM, Warmaps and Stability maps (which are just placeholders adjusted in size), I have already (mostly) updated all python files (I'll have to adjust the region map to some changes I recently made and there are some bugs with resource spawns, the spawn area, barbarians, etc. already work fine). With the CNM I'd wait until the changes to the map are final)

Any suggestions where I could upload these files, they are too big for an attachment and I do not have much experience with that.

I only updated those maps with placeholder values so it didn't cause a python exception. The only real work I did is making a rough version of the RegionMap and some values in Areas.py, but not much.

You can pack the files into a zip file. IIRC the limit for those files if large enough you won't have any problems.
You could also use git. People can then make pull request to contribute.
 
I'm mostly in favour of git because you can browse the source in your browser even on devices without Civ4.
 
Could the mountains be moved one column east? West Coast cities are very important and prosperous, should be able to have fat crosses that aren't full of peaks
 
Well, I was really just commenting on the coastline there. Someone better informed about the area should take a look at everything else.
 
Great, looking forward to it. I think Korea is best with Pyongyang and Seoul in roughly accurate positions, but it would be great if they were not as cramped in this map as they are in the current one. No player would found those cities for optimal output, and I only found Pyongyang for roleplaying.

I'd have taken the same approach, but would you mind creating a map where those city locations are annotated as labels for reference? It would help understanding your vision for the map in some locations.

Again, labels for the intended spawn locations would help a lot. It's great that you already have everything in Python, but there is an advantage to seeing everything in one map.


Github! Fork the main mod, and paste your changes into it.

These are all things I will eventually do, unfortunately I do not have as much time at the moment, so it'll probably have to wait some weeks. :undecide:
 
I'm not really all that familiar with the area, but thinking of something like this:
Spoiler :
usa-west-coast-png.474314

Could the mountains be moved one column east? West Coast cities are very important and prosperous, should be able to have fat crosses that aren't full of peaks
The proposed "curved" coastline looks closer to the Robinson projection to me, however it seems that you have added land tiles that ultimately benefited the Great Basin desert, an area that does not particularly need enlargement. Maybe those tiles could be used to the benefit of California instead? This would probably exaggerate the size of the West Coast but I agree that this region deserves emphasis.

These are all things I will eventually do, unfortunately I do not have as much time at the moment, so it'll probably have to wait some weeks. :undecide:
That's alright with me, I'd like to keep pace with you so every breather to bring 1.15 to a close is welcome :)
 
Could the mountains be moved one column east? West Coast cities are very important and prosperous, should be able to have fat crosses that aren't full of peaks

The proposed "curved" coastline looks closer to the Robinson projection to me, however it seems that you have added land tiles that ultimately benefited the Great Basin desert, an area that does not particularly need enlargement. Maybe those tiles could be used to the benefit of California instead? This would probably exaggerate the size of the West Coast but I agree that this region deserves emphasis.

So something more like this?

Spoiler :
usa-west-coast-2-png.474321
 

Attachments

  • USA West Coast 2.png
    USA West Coast 2.png
    5 MB · Views: 1,689
Yeah, looks good.
 
Took a look at Canada today as well. The size-3 cities represent the actually important Canadian cities, while the size 1 cities are more just space-fillers that are important in their area and could be considered the "canonical" settlements but are pretty much irrelevant in the greater picture of the country. In some cases where there are two nearby cities of similar size/importance which could easily alternate, I chose the larger one and represented the smaller with a town and a label/landmark (specifically, Regina and Edmonton).

Spoiler :
eastern-canada-png.474342

I assume that Montreal is going to be kept Canada's capital, since there isn't really a way of fitting in Ottawa as well unless we're going to have Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec all crammed two tiles apart (unless this is indeed what you're planning?). This is the most geographically accurate position, but it's pretty close to Quebec (which is already a bit further west than it really should be) - were you thinking of it being 1W or 1SW of my position? In that case the upper St. Lawrence and Ottawa rivers should be adjusted. I also already moved part of the Ottawa river 1E; it makes the Ontario/Quebec border look less strange.

IMO, Nova Scotia looks better without the SW tile, but I can easily see why you would want it there. It doesn't really matter either way.

The island tile in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence represents PEI.

I changed a couple of grassland tiles to tundra tiles, since those areas are almost completely uninhabited (this is pretty much my benchmark for what to put as tundra).

It's not on the original map either, but I added marshes to represent the Hudson's Bay Lowlands, which is isolated, inaccessible, and very sparsely located even by the standards of the area.

I also added an island tile to represent the Belcher Islands

Spoiler :
western-canada-png.474343


I extended the Red River a bit south so that it actually flows into the US.

A couple of grassland tiles were in added in the Peace River Country, which is actually inhabitable and farmed despite being so far north.

I also added another grassland tile so that Prince George can be settled.

I assume you originally had Vancouver just south of the Fraser River? That is more geographically accurate, but I think it would be better to move the peak on the north side of the mouth 1N and make that the site of Vancouver - after all, the city is on the northern side of the river, but more importantly it squeezes it less against the US border and makes coexisting with Seattle more viable.

Spoiler :
northern-canada-png.474334


I moved the Yukon grassland tile from Dawson City to Whitehorse, which I would say is overall the same importance (Dawson City was important early on but has declined to basically nothing while Whitehorse is the absolute centre of the territory), but Whitehorse is a little warmer than the rest of the territory and it makes more sense to have the grassland tile there. If you decide to change the Alaska Panhandle and add a spot for Juneau, it wouldn't be a crime to move Whitehorse 1E so they can coexist better (i.e. swap places with the copper), although then you might want to adjust the Yukon River as well.

I made the mouth of the Mackenzie River tundra instead of ice, since that area is a little warmer than to the east; it also allows for the settling of Inuvik (if for some reason you wanted to do that), the only community of any importance on basically the entire northern coast.

I adjusted the size of the Great Slave Lake; I'm aware that the tilt of the lake makes it plausible to have the eastern tile 1N, but the shape just looks totally wrong that way. I also removed one ice tile from the lake, to make Yellowknife settleable.

I also rearranged a bunch of resources; I'm not sure what you had planned for the post-Columbian exchange resource spawns, so I used the current 1700 AD scenario as a reference point for that. Mostly it's for increased geographical accuracy (e.g. moving the Newfoundland fish to the Grand Banks, the Alberta Oil back to the oilsands, the Prairie wheat to Saskatchewan). I also added some resources - I'm not sure what the plan the ultimate plan for the number of resources is, so consider this a maximalist proposal. In order of importance, they are:
- 2 Furs on the Hudson's Bay coast - I'm surprised that this doesn't exist already TBH, considering that the entire point of Rupert's Land was to collect furs - currently there is absolutely no benefit or incentive whatsover to settle there as England, at least this way it'll be a marginally smaller waste of resources. If nothing else, I really think that these should be added. Partially compensated by the below:
- Replaced Labrador fur with iron - the fur trade never really operated much in the area, but iron was always important in the region. If that's too much iron (probably not, Canada only has 2) you could probably scrap the resource spot altogether, since there's still the aluminum.
- Replace 1 Northwest Territories gems with gold - TBH I was never sure why the eastern gems were there at all, there certainly isn't anything there at the moment. Gold is what Yellowknife was founded for, so it seems appropriate to have it nearby.
- Added Sudbury copper - represents Sudbury's famous nickel mines, which also produce copper, and gives Toronto a production resource.
- Added Yukon copper - an important industry in the area but mostly a replacement for the silver that I moved to northern BC.
- Added BC gold - represents the various gold rushes in the region that led to the founding of BC, as well as the subsequent gold mining. Not really all that necessary, but if you think that this would give BC too many resources I would remove the copper first, especially if you add one to Whitehorse.
- Added Lake Superior gold - represents the mineral wealth of northern Ontario, and gives a reason for Fort William/Thunder Bay to be settled (along with the moved copper. although that is still intended for Winnipeg). Could be replaced by some other metal if you think Canada has too much gold, like silver.
- Added Cape Breton coal - i.e. the Canadian extension of the Appalachian coal industry. Historically important, not so much anymore. Not that important to add, but it does give Halifax some production.
- Added Great Slave Lake fur - Represents the reach of the fur trade into the north. Not important though, could easily be ignored if you think that there would be too much Canadian fur or make the north too rich.
- Added Nunavut copper - I'm not really all that sure that this should be added at all to be honest, but provides a slight reason to settle Rankin Inlet (the only settlement of note in the northwestern shore of Hudson's Bay). Definitely not important.
 

Attachments

  • Northern Canada.png
    Northern Canada.png
    5.2 MB · Views: 930
  • Eastern Canada.png
    Eastern Canada.png
    5.1 MB · Views: 1,015
  • Western Canada.png
    Western Canada.png
    5.1 MB · Views: 982
  • Canada Map.CivBeyondSwordSave
    Canada Map.CivBeyondSwordSave
    209.9 KB · Views: 84
THIS. IS. AMAZING. Finally, DoC will get the larger map it desperately needs and deserves.

1 minor suggestion and a question
1. Please move Britain and Ireland 1 tile North and East, they look weird where they are now
2. How many tiles total on the map?
 
Back
Top Bottom