soul-breathing
Emperor
Indeed, the malay peninsula should be enlarged to place Singapore and Kuala Lumpur in the same time.
Alternative Map for DOC
- Thread starter Bautos42
- Start date
While I like your proposed South East Asia, especially the Malay Peninsula, Australia look really distorted to me.
AessaSH
Warlord
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Yeah, recreating Robinson Projection's Australia for this map is quite challenging for me. Someone must reworking that part..
In this game, it's better to connect all small islands into a huge landmass, just like Japan, because the AI can't do well on island hopping. Unfortunately, you can't use diagonal connection as a strait.
Put a river? Already did that (see the city placement pic)..
Kinda forgot it at the beginning..
If I were to choose one I'd vote for this Indonesia. It allows 3 cities on Java, one independent Sundanese city in 400AD and then 2 Javanese cities on spawn. It also allows a sizable Malay civ to spawn on Sumatra. This allows for historical accuracy, and it doesn't look too distorted for us to live with.
My one critique (and I know I might catch alot of flak for this) is that the Philippines don't need to be this big. They were never particularly historically important to any outside power as anything other than a base. their main importance has been to Filipinos (please don't give me holy hell).
AessaSH
Warlord
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Re-editing the Sulawesi to make it less blocky.
The first pic is my original map.
The second pic has a nice looking Sulawesi at the price of removing the Buru Island.
The last pic also has the corrected Sulawesi in additional to add Halmahera Island without removing a land tile, but Papua and Australia are shifted 1 tile to the east.
Sweet, now all major kingdoms can be represented:
- Javanese Major Kingdoms (Kalingga > Central Java's Medang > East Java's Medang > Kahuripan > Kediri > Singhasari > Majapahit > Demak > Mataram)
- Javanese minor Kingdoms (Blambangan, Cirebon, and Banten)
- Sundanese Kingdoms (Sunda and Galuh)
- Dutch East Indies (Batavia)
- Bali
Spoiler Maps :
The first pic is my original map.
The second pic has a nice looking Sulawesi at the price of removing the Buru Island.
The last pic also has the corrected Sulawesi in additional to add Halmahera Island without removing a land tile, but Papua and Australia are shifted 1 tile to the east.
Oh, I'm not aware that my Java can allows 3-4 major cities (Jakarta-Yogyakarta-Surabaya + a Balinese city) if I'm moving Jakarta 1W.
Sweet, now all major kingdoms can be represented:
- Javanese Major Kingdoms (Kalingga > Central Java's Medang > East Java's Medang > Kahuripan > Kediri > Singhasari > Majapahit > Demak > Mataram)
- Javanese minor Kingdoms (Blambangan, Cirebon, and Banten)
- Sundanese Kingdoms (Sunda and Galuh)
- Dutch East Indies (Batavia)
- Bali
Spoiler Java Island :
I think 3 cities in Java is complete overkill. Java is neither big enough in real life nor will it ever be in game to have more than two decent cities there. Of course you can always clutter the entire map with small, useless cities, but this just obstructs gameplay. Both my and AessaSH's Java allow for two decent cities in Java, and I believe that should be enough. Even England (without Scotland), wich has about the same size and is arguably historically more important, supprts only two cities. Of course you are free to settle three cities on Java, but the map should be designed envisioning a two city setup, not a three city setup.
I di agree though that AaseaSH's Indonesia is a clear improvement compared to my draft, but there's still room for improvement.
I agree. I see no reason why three cities should be the goal.
hnrysml
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There are many situations in DoC where you cannot found all the important cities in one small region, for example, the Netherlands, or in Germany. I think making Indonesia in general larger to represent its huge population and to realise its population density is a cool idea, but I think now, relative to other civs, perhaps it is simply gaining too many tiles. Furthermore the cost of a large Java and Sumatra is that regions with sparse population such as Sulawesi, Kalimantan, and Papua are going to have large cities (at least in the modern era if they are filled with jungle).
Overall,though, I think this is a great discussion and some of the changes are aesthetically very pleasing, and could be very fun to play with. One big question on my mind, is that if the map were to be expanded by such a degree, and hence filled with a lot more cities, units, and trade routes, wouldn't the game run too slowly. Because of the limitations of the Civ IV, it seems like no matter what specs you're running, the loading time between turns gets rather long the later into a game one gets
Overall,though, I think this is a great discussion and some of the changes are aesthetically very pleasing, and could be very fun to play with. One big question on my mind, is that if the map were to be expanded by such a degree, and hence filled with a lot more cities, units, and trade routes, wouldn't the game run too slowly. Because of the limitations of the Civ IV, it seems like no matter what specs you're running, the loading time between turns gets rather long the later into a game one gets
I think Philippines looks fine except maybe one too many tiles in the south. I like the double tile Java with river for fresh water. I think it's better to move some islands north or Australia south than to distort them or move east-west. It will look better.
two cities are enough in Java, particularly a Sundanese city (Sundapura - then Jakarta, or Pajajaran or Bandung, etc) and a Javanese city (Trowulan, or Surabaya, or Singhasari - then Malang, etc). That setting, or a single city in the middle (Mataram - then Jogjakarta or Daha - then Kediri, etc) allowing more space for Palembang in Sumatra and Denpasar of Bali in the easternmost amalgamated island.
Comparing with the size of Borneo and other islands, I prefer Java to be a single row island though.
Comparing with the size of Borneo and other islands, I prefer Java to be a single row island though.
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that 3 cities was the goal. I was just happy that it was possible -- if one so chose.
And when I said "Java" I included Bali in that since it's now connected.
hnrysml
Warlord
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I was initially against making Java that much larger, but just looking at an atlas and realising Java is roughly the length of the Italian peninsula, I've changed my mind. I know Europe is likely to remain disproportionately larger than the rest of the map for gameplay reasons, but I think reducing this distortion by a significant degree would be an improvement.
Novicenoble
Prince
It seems those Indonesian archipelago already much richer than Japanese one.
Fresol
Angry Halfling in Green
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I hope in the making of this new map, there will be refinement on water tiles. In my opinion there should be at least 3 types of sea water tiles: 0
ocean that cannot be entered untill caravel; 0 coast that prevents overpopulation (e.g. 17 pop Vinland); 1 coast that allows population growth. Land should be the primary determining factor for population, you can't expect people to all live on house boats. Not everywhere is tropical.
ocean that cannot be entered untill caravel; 0 coast that prevents overpopulation (e.g. 17 pop Vinland); 1 coast that allows population growth. Land should be the primary determining factor for population, you can't expect people to all live on house boats. Not everywhere is tropical.For the above (forgot to respond to this): I think it's worth to have an arctic coast terrain (or a similar name, I don't know) with 0 food to prevent cities like St. John's. Temperate and tropical waters are both adequately represented with the current coast terrain imo.
Another point to consider: maybe the Sichuan basin should be separated more clearly from the rest of China with additional peaks. It may not be that justified by the size of the surrounding mountains, but I think having that gives more texture to the map.
Another point to consider: maybe the Sichuan basin should be separated more clearly from the rest of China with additional peaks. It may not be that justified by the size of the surrounding mountains, but I think having that gives more texture to the map.
Fresol
Angry Halfling in Green
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My opinion is that a map change is appealing if it encourages historical city placement and historical play. Deserts, rivers and forests and everything have all changed dramatically throughout the (geologically) short time span of human civilization. There is no need to argue whether this copper should be right here or to the east of that hill. The point is that for exmaple London is historically more important than say Southampton, therefore the map should reflect that, make London a better spot and relocate a food resource to the Southampton spot to discourage founding it.
I've always had this grudge with the default Chang'an spot. I remember you said once that you consider it to be a pretty good spot. Well if history were a Civ4 game then Qin Shi Huang would have never chosen that Chang'an to be his capital.
To encourage historical Chang'an for example, firstly it should be 1E, on the Wei He River (no man chooses remote mountains for their capital). Secondly it should be a hill tile, to reflect the city's natural good defence. Thirdly there should be adequate but not abundant food with city fat cross. Later dynasties abandoned Chang'an for their capital because as the city grows, Chang'an food supply becomes a huge issue. Luoyang not far to the east however can be much more easily supplied with food and it becomes the new capital for some later dynasties.
So back to your idea. I would say if it increases historicity or playability then I'd love to see it incorporated. Otherwise I'd say people have different aesthetical standards and more peaks, fewer peaks, whatever.
hnrysml
Warlord
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The source is The Times Atlas of World History (and a very old edition so maybe scholarly opinion has changed) but in 800ad Chang'an was probably the second largest city in the world, after Baghdad, with 1 million within the walled, grid city and another 1 million outside the walls.
soul-breathing
Emperor
For the Sichuan point, I suggest to add some marshes in Sichuan and disappear in about 200ad(Liu Bei founds Shu Kingdom), add some food resources(rice) in about 600ad(Tang Dynasty, Chengdu becomes one of the three largest cities in China). If there must be added peaks, then I also suggest it to disappear in some year, maybe 1500ad or 1600ad(immigrants into Sichuan in Early Qing Dynasty).
By the way, also parts such as Guangdong, Fujian and Hunan could do like it. Marshes at the beginning, disappear and add food resources in some year. Before Tang Dynasty, there was not so large population in south of Yangtze River.
