Alternative Timelines

[Faustmouse]

Feel free to change the building in question to you will.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Feel free to change the building in question to you will.

It is a building that is valid under either but is only defined in one.

 

[Arakhor]

Wouldn't it be easier to define it in both then or is that not permitted?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Then you would not be able to have both on at the same time.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Moved from SVN thread

Good move DH. We should apply the same to any alternative timeline techs as well I think. Clockpunk for example.

Confused, why would you want only one civ to research an alternative timeline tech?

The difference between the Punk and Religion techs is that some of the Punk techs open things other than just the Culture. Also getting the tech is not the same as getting the Culture. You may research the tech only to discover you don't have what is required and need to build a new city somewhere letting others get the tech and race you to the Culture.

Honestly I have always been dubious about the need to make it a culture and have always thought it could/should be something of a 'Global' tech (that can only be accessed by use of a Great Scientist). Having them be 'cultures' feels like stretching the definition of a culture too much imo.

If they are to be truly modular, it would be best if they were all dead-end techs.

Only one civ will ever be able to access the benefits of an alternative timeline so why not make it simply a global tech and remove the culture factor entirely? I've never seen much selectivity involved in a given city qualifying to be able to build the culture anyhow.

That's seems simple to me - tech knowledge requirements should be removed from associated buildings/units, only requiring clockpunk culture resource to build.

As for the tech - it should be prohibited for research after corresponding Culture have been built.

That seems the easiest way of dealing with things.

The point is that those Punk Cultures require one of more resources in the vicinity of a city. IE you need to have the resource and have it improved. This represents the potential to go down this path. Unfortunately there is no way to link the requirement directly to the technology and so we have to have both the technology and the Culture.

If the PrereqBuildingClasses, PrereqOrBuildingClasses,BuildingClassType and iNumBuildingNeeded tags were working correctly, IE

1. restricted access to the tech based on the building(s), and
2. increased the priority of the buildings and improvements

we could just use the Tech definition, move all the units and buildings into the tech and get rid of the Culture.

We can sort of achieve this in part by

- making an auto built building "Precondition for xxxPunk" that has the same terrain etc requirements as the culture

- making a PythonCallBack on those techs that handles the building requirement.​

This would mean that the AI has no knowledge of the tech requirements nor the importance of improving those resources.

We can also make them a WorldTech allowing 2 or more nations to learn them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The point is that those Punk Cultures require one of more resources in the vicinity of a city. IE you need to have the resource and have it improved. This represents the potential to go down this path. Unfortunately there is no way to link the requirement directly to the technology and so we have to have both the technology and the Culture.

What exactly ARE the resources they require? It seems I can build the culture anywhere as long as I have the tech and it hasn't been built yet.

And why would it even be important to base it on any resources in the first place?

If the PrereqBuildingClasses, PrereqOrBuildingClasses,BuildingClassType and iNumBuildingNeeded tags were working correctly, IE

1. restricted access to the tech based on the building(s), and
2. increased the priority of the buildings and improvements

we could just use the Tech definition, move all the units and buildings into the tech and get rid of the Culture.

We can sort of achieve this in part by

- making an auto built building "Precondition for xxxPunk" that has the same terrain etc requirements as the culture

- making a PythonCallBack on those techs that handles the building requirement.​

This would mean that the AI has no knowledge of the tech requirements nor the importance of improving those resources.

We can also make them a WorldTech allowing 2 or more nations to learn them.

Provided it actually is important to preserve the vicinity req's I can see this working.

And if we WANT more than one civ to be able to have access, then I suppose the last portion there is the way to go.

With our current game structure, to the best of your knowledge, would it be possible to require the action of a Great Scientist (or perhaps Great Engineer) to access a wonder tech like this? Given how we're continuing to add more purpose to various individual GPs, wouldn't this make a GS (or GE) more important and help him to balance better to the added importance C2C has applied to GPs like Prophets?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What exactly ARE the resources they require? It seems I can build the culture anywhere as long as I have the tech and it hasn't been built yet.

Clockpunk requires sulphur in the vicinity.

And why would it even be important to base it on any resources in the first place?

It is to mimic what happens in the real world and give some variation to the nations. That is what the Cultures are all about. The mega fauna also.

And if we WANT more than one civ to be able to have access, then I suppose the last portion there is the way to go.

In the real world there was a time when only a few countries had nuclear weapons. The main reason was based on need and cost. Many countries did not need to have them because they were in one or more "clubs" which had them. That does not work in Civ IV as you don't get such clubs.

With our current game structure, to the best of your knowledge, would it be possible to require the action of a Great Scientist (or perhaps Great Engineer) to access a wonder tech like this? Given how we're continuing to add more purpose to various individual GPs, wouldn't this make a GS (or GE) more important and help him to balance better to the added importance C2C has applied to GPs like Prophets?

Great People can research any tech you can. So it it is left as a World Tech for x nations then x GP could research the tech.

If you want it as a "hidden" tech that anyone can research using a GP but only using a GP then it is a bit more difficult. You would need to have the tech unavailable to everyone and have an action by GP which gives the tech. There is no current XML tag to define which tech you get so it can't be done with existing functionality.

It does not have to be a tech, it could be a building, eg Culture, that gives access to it. That we could do easily as it just uses the building stuff that GP already have. It can be based on Tech but not on anything else as that existing functionality ignores non-tech requirements.

 

[Arakhor]

Why does Clockpunk require sulphur? Intricate metal mechanisms do not generally require gunpowder to function.

 

[alberts8]

I think i missed something here. Was the art from the AltTimelines module moved into the core as a first step in moving the module into the core?

I don't like that but maybe i'am the only one.

 

[Arakhor]

The Alt Timelines module actually works now (it's mostly genuinely modular), so why would it be moved into the core? That would be really silly.

 

[alberts8]

Someone already moved the art files and there is no other reason to do that.

 

[Arakhor]

Maybe Sparth was getting carried away?

 

[Sparth]

If you mean dds/nif files, yes I move them to FPK files. Not all because most of them was already there. Less dds/nif files outside fpk then better.

I didnt move any XML files from Modules to core.

 

[alberts8]

Those files should stay in the modules area especially if they belong to an optional module. If something get's moved into or out of the core the complete module must be moved not just parts everything else is just confusing.

 

[Sparth]

Those files should stay in the modules area especially if they belong to an optional module. If something get's moved into or out of the core the complete module must be moved not just parts everything else is just confusing.

Nif/DDs placement are easy to track by artdef XML files. Less files in mod = faster loading.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Clockpunk requires sulphur in the vicinity.

It is to mimic what happens in the real world and give some variation to the nations. That is what the Cultures are all about. The mega fauna also.

Why does Clockpunk require sulphur? Intricate metal mechanisms do not generally require gunpowder to function.

I somewhat agree with Arakhor here - it feels like we're reaching to CREATE a unique restriction rather than allowing it to be something more natural. I have no problem with trying to enforce some variation between nations but we're obviously going to have that with a tech (or world wonder building... read on) requirement as well.

Cultures, however, would eventually form the basis of national identities and I have a hard time envisioning a nation identifying itself as 'The Clockwork People'.

In the real world there was a time when only a few countries had nuclear weapons. The main reason was based on need and cost. Many countries did not need to have them because they were in one or more "clubs" which had them. That does not work in Civ IV as you don't get such clubs.

It certainly would be interesting to eventually invest into some improved international negotiations and treaties settings. That's where I feel this sort of thing would work in more effectively.

But this is different from wanting to enforce certain variations taking place between Civs based on differing achievements.

If we wanted, say, Clockpunk, to have its applications be restricted to more than one civ but keep it to a few, then you could do a few things with resources (to be able to trade it) and/or world wonders with global limits above 1 and national limits of 1. (I THINK this would be possible... not sure.)

If you want it as a "hidden" tech that anyone can research using a GP but only using a GP then it is a bit more difficult. You would need to have the tech unavailable to everyone and have an action by GP which gives the tech. There is no current XML tag to define which tech you get so it can't be done with existing functionality.

Yeah, didn't think so. Probably not hard to code but there's so much else to do.

It does not have to be a tech, it could be a building, eg Culture, that gives access to it. That we could do easily as it just uses the building stuff that GP already have. It can be based on Tech but not on anything else as that existing functionality ignores non-tech requirements.

Ok, so going off of some of the thoughts surfacing earlier in this post, what if we:

1) Make the Alt timeline accessing building a World Wonder with something like a global limit of 2 rather than 1, and a National Wonder with a TEAM limit of 1. Thus two nations (as long as they aren't of the same team) can build it but only in one of their cities.

2) Have the building generate 3 of its own special type of resource, like "Clockpunk Manuals".

3) Then restrict the building to only being constructed by a particular GP type such as a Scientist and/or Engineer.

4) The tech prereqs to BASE those Alt Tech core buildings off would be close to the Alt Timeline techs we currently have. But the units and buildings it unlocks would be based on whatever prereqs you want as long as you ALSO add access to the resource ("Clockpunk Manuals"). This way trading can open things up.

5) We'd end up removing the tech and the culture to shift to this method and put the prereqs for Alt Tech buildings and units on the resource.

The interesting thing about this too would be that you could have a variety of tech prereqs to unlock further things within that Alt Timeline. You could have a Clockwork Infantry for example, or an automated clockwork Sub. Perhaps you could have some upgrades for the units within the alt timeline.

I don't really see any great reason to restrict to more than a tech requirement tbh. By those stages of the game, usually somewhere you have any given resource in vicinity. And it could be a major problem for a smaller civilization which means it would support the steamroll even more potentially. The tech prereq is one thing, but getting the right GP can be a challenge worth more than getting the right resource in vicinity, and one where the player can actually try more to obtain rather than relying on the luck of certain resources popping up in one of your city vicinities.



Of course, all this is talk on my end. I'd be hard pressed to get my hands dirty on this project being as there's others I think much more important.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Why does Clockpunk require sulphur? Intricate metal mechanisms do not generally require gunpowder to function.

The Di Vinci tank is in that group and it is gunpowder user. Probably why.

 

[Arakhor]

Leonardo's tank (battle-wagon?) should require sulphur then, not the entire tech.

 

[alberts8]

Nif/DDs placement are easy to track by artdef XML files. Less files in mod = faster loading.

I understand what you mean but before moving those files into the core all the other non-optional modules should have been moved into the core. The optional modules like AltTimelines including their art files belong into the Modules directory.
After playing a while a single turn takes longer as starting the game so i don't really care about the impact the AltTimelines art files would have. I don't even really mind the three minutes loading time after extracting all the pak files and starting the game.

 

[Sparth]

For my side its important to have C2C as slick as possible. I often backup my copy of C2C and amount of files matters for coping entire mod. Also when im testing somethin I constantly restarting the mod and less files make this faster.
And also I think C2C should not only be stable, playable but also well-knit, and putting outside tons of free files makes him loose like a cow