Altruism

[Timsup2nothin]

Which movie?

Talking of trees & altruism, there's a company that plants a tree thats fed by your dead body, I think its genius. Graveyards are such a waste, sucking up resources & wasting useful land even after death is just awful (when I write a will I will mention I never want to end up with a gravestone).

The Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel.

On theft as selfish...how about ownership? If I 'own' food and people are hungry how is that any less selfish than stealing food would be? The average American owns a roof that many villages across the world would consider adequate shelter...and usually the American thinks they don't have enough square footage...and there are people in America living out in the rain. Is that not selfish?

 

[Lohrenswald]

First: I think it's important to emphisise that altruistic acts don't have to be without reward, but rather that it's done not with the intent to be rewarded.

And I don't like the argument that altruistic acts actually are selfish because you reward yourself with a good feeling (or like endorfins).
No-one has a thought process of "I will help others to get emotionally high". The drive to be helpful is subconcious. It's a natural process, not something you can control.
Like, to say that altruism is say greedy because of say endorfin stimulance implies that greed is a more "real" thing than the feeling of helping. It's not, greed are processes in the brain like other emotions, not the reason for the others.

Does that make sense? It didn't come out as clear as I'd hope.

 

[onejayhawk]

I agree, but that has me thinking... If one pays a Dominatrix to tie him up and spank his bottom... Well you aren't getting any "reward" at all, just "punishment" but you are helping the dominatrix because she gets money, and also, maybe she enjoys spanking you, so it makes her happy. All you get is an endorphin rush, and that warm tingly feeling, with some humiliation mixed in right?

So isn't that altruism?

It's a business doing pleasure, but not altruism.

J

 

[Crackerbox]

First: I think it's important to emphisise that altruistic acts don't have to be without reward, but rather that it's done not with the intent to be rewarded.

And I don't like the argument that altruistic acts actually are selfish because you reward yourself with a good feeling (or like endorfins).
No-one has a thought process of "I will help others to get emotionally high". The drive to be helpful is subconcious. It's a natural process, not something you can control.
Like, to say that altruism is say greedy because of say endorfin stimulance implies that greed is a more "real" thing than the feeling of helping. It's not, greed are processes in the brain like other emotions, not the reason for the others.

Does that make sense? It didn't come out as clear as I'd hope.

When people make the wild claim that people perform altruism to get a reward, by that logic no action occurs without a reward. It's extremely foolish and illogical. The fact remains that many people of different political and spiritual beliefs give altruistically to those who are not like themselves at all, and who may have beliefs in opposition to themselves, so it could hardly qualify that the donater was rewarded.

You give because it's part of being a human being. It's a selfless action by definition, so to then redefine it to be acting in a selfish interest to reward oneself for giving to others, then fundamentally alters the definition of altruism.

To do this in philosophy makes discussion impossible because there is no frame-of-reference or complete disagreement of the central term.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

When people make the wild claim that people perform altruism to get a reward, by that logic no action occurs without a reward. It's extremely foolish and illogical. The fact remains that many people of different political and spiritual beliefs give altruistically to those who are not like themselves at all, and who may have beliefs in opposition to themselves, so it could hardly qualify that the donater was rewarded.

You give because it's part of being a human being. It's a selfless action by definition, so to then redefine it to be acting in a selfish interest to reward oneself for giving to others, then fundamentally alters the definition of altruism.

To do this in philosophy makes discussion impossible because there is no frame-of-reference or complete disagreement of the central term.

Plenty of people 'give' just because it reenforces their self image of being 'one who has'. That may not account for all, but certainly accounts for plenty.

 

[Crackerbox]

Plenty of people 'give' just because it reenforces their self image of being 'one who has'. That may not account for all, but certainly accounts for plenty.

Baloney. It's largely about giving back due to responsibility. You hear that over and over. Heck, what made you think such negative things about a positive aid to the impoverished? Why not work on a Habitat for Humanity project even once before you make such negative assumptions. Nobody there is working on improving their self-image. They're sweating and donating time, talent, and treasure to get a roof over the head of a Brother and Sister.

The team digging a well isn't trying to feel good about themselves. They could buy themselves some new consumer item cheaply and easily versus traveling to Africa and sleeping on the floor so villagers can finally have clean water.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Hearing something over and over doesn't make it the truth.

If it did you would have no choice but to accept my point as true, since you also hear how helping the underprivileged helps one appreciate their advantages on a regular basis.

Meanwhile, I find your assumptions about me to be increasingly offensive. If you want to say "why don't you do this before you say that" as if you know thing one about what I have or haven't done, provide evidence. I have some pretty set judgements of you that as a courtesy I keep to myself, but at least they are based on what you have posted instead of being whole cloth fabrications. I strongly suggest that you adopt a similar standard.

 

[El_Machinae]

Naw, there are lots of people who only tokenly give. They gave $10 to the Ice Bucket Challenge, and remember that as their moment of charity for an entire year.

There's a small cohort of people who give at a level that actually comes out of their consumption (instead of out of their savings). I know these types of people, and it's an order of magnitude more than people who cluck their tongues while saying "oh, it's awful about situation X, the government should DO something!".

But to go to Lohrenswald's point about the 'feeling good'. That's why I distinguished my motivations. Sometimes I did stuff 'cause it made me feel good. Sometimes I behave altruistically because I feel an empathic pain if I don't. These are (to me) different motivations. They feel different.

I vastly more enjoy the donations I make that are agreements I've made with myself. Gloves for panhandlers, or $21 every time someone asks me for help with a medical charity. But, sometimes I just feel awful about a situation, and I'll give in order to relieve the guilt I feel for having done too little to help pre-emptively

 

[Crackerbox]

Hearing something over and over doesn't make it the truth.

If it did you would have no choice but to accept my point as true, since you also hear how helping the underprivileged helps one appreciate their advantages on a regular basis.

Meanwhile, I find your assumptions about me to be increasingly offensive. If you want to say "why don't you do this before you say that" as if you know thing one about what I have or haven't done, provide evidence. I have some pretty set judgements of you that as a courtesy I keep to myself, but at least they are based on what you have posted instead of being whole cloth fabrications. I strongly suggest that you adopt a similar standard.

When you extend me that courtesy, as you yourself have promised to do, then I will also, Tim.

Meanwhile if you feel altruism is done to reward oneself for giving, then why not ask if that's your inner emotional response?

For the rest of us are trying to do good, not because of reward, but because it's a human responsibility.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

When you extend me that courtesy, as you yourself have promised to do, then I will also, Tim.

Meanwhile if you feel altruism is done to reward oneself for giving, then why not ask if that's your inner emotional response?

For the rest of us are trying to do good, not because of reward, but because it's a human responsibility.

As I said, I abandoned judgements based on assumptions beyond what you post.

For example, having said that there is plenty of 'make me feel good about being a have' involved in giving, I didn't claim that motive was universal...because I think pretty much everyone here would consider it overwhelmingly arrogant for me to make such a blanket statement...and they would be right to do so.

 

[Crackerbox]

As I said, I abandoned judgements based on assumptions beyond what you post.

For example, having said that there is plenty of 'make me feel good about being a have' involved in giving, I didn't claim that motive was universal...because I think pretty much everyone here would consider it overwhelmingly arrogant for me to make such a blanket statement...and they would be right to do so.

When I read a post like this, then I'm not surprised that American giving is at its lowest in history. Volunteerism is way down. And why not, if some folks think it's about feeling good instead of a responsibility of being born?

It's a tragic indictment of apathy, that not only excuses itself, but discourages anyone else to give.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

When I read a post like this, then I'm not surprised that American giving is at its lowest in history. Volunteerism is way down. And why not, if some folks think it's about feeling good instead of a responsibility of being born?

It's a tragic indictment of apathy, that not only excuses itself, but discourages anyone else to give.

I guess some people would find it nice to get that feeling of being among those not in need and to be able to look down on others who are not in need as less responsible at the same time. I hadn't realized that was likely to play a part as well, but it does stand to reason.

 

[Crackerbox]

I guess some people would find it nice to get that feeling of being among those not in need and to be able to look down on others who are not in need as less responsible at the same time. I hadn't realized that was likely to play a part as well, but it does stand to reason.

If you can't grasp the concept of "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" that the central meaning of altruism is about being selfless and humbling the self to serve others, then your message is crystal clear.

It's not about looking down at others whatsoever.

My time is not mine; it belongs to GOD.
My talent is not mine; it belongs to GOD.
My treasure is not mine; it belongs to GOD.

All of that is loaned to me to help the Other and Others. It's tragic that you don't get those maxims.

"24“Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.25So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28“ ‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags.29For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ " The Gospel of Matthew 25: 24-30

The price of selfishness and waste of GOD's resources, that are lent to us all, is DEATH.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you can't grasp the concept of "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" that the central meaning of altruism is about being selfless and humbling the self to serve others, then your message is crystal clear.

It's not about looking down at others whatsoever.

Thank you for providing such a vivid illustration.

 

[Crackerbox]

Jesus Himself says in Matthew 25, that the ones who call him Lord, but fail to aid the suffering, are doomed to eternal damnation.

The question then comes up for every Christian, have I been altruistic? Is my love for Christ...genuine? Am I just going through the motions?

If there is no altruism, then Jesus says those folks will pay the ultimate price. Jesus says it in the two last parables found in Matthew 25. If that stings, then so be it.

"40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”The Gospel of Matthew 25: 40-46

 

[Sommerswerd]

Baloney. It's largely about giving back due to responsibility. You hear that over and over. Heck, what made you think such negative things about a positive aid to the impoverished? Why not work on a Habitat for Humanity project even once before you make such negative assumptions. Nobody there is working on improving their self-image. They're sweating and donating time, talent, and treasure to get a roof over the head of a Brother and Sister.

The team digging a well isn't trying to feel good about themselves. They could buy themselves some new consumer item cheaply and easily versus traveling to Africa and sleeping on the floor so villagers can finally have clean water.

I've worked thousands of hours in community service, including hundreds of hours for "Habitat for Humanity" specifically. Some of it was college obligations, some of it was resume building, some of it was because some cute girl was doing it that I wanted to spend time with (that's how I met my wife ), some of it was because that is what you get a great deal of cultural pressure to do as a Black person in college (a stereotype, if you will), some of it I just loved doing because it was fun (like coaching youth sports or directing youth theatre/dramatic arts)... some of it I even got paid for through work-study -like serving as project manager for large community service projects... and some of it was court-ordered community service (it happens). I currently coach my son's little league team and serve on my Town Council.

Point is, there was always a reason... I am skeptical when people say they do something "out of the kindness of their heart." Usually there is a reason, even if its just "to feel like I'm better than others" or "to go to heaven when I die."

 

[Crackerbox]

I've worked thousands of hours in community service, including hundreds of hours for "Habitat for Humanity" specifically. Some of it was college obligations, some of it was resume building, some of it was because some cute girl was doing it that I wanted to spend time with (that's how I met my wife ), some of it was because that is what you get a great deal of cultural pressure to do as a Black person in college (a stereotype, if you will), some of it I just loved doing because it was fun (like coaching youth sports or directing youth theatre/dramatic arts)... some of it I even got paid for through work-study -like serving as project manager for large community service projects... and some of it was court-ordered community service (it happens). I currently coach my son's little league team and serve on my Town Council.

Point is, there was always a reason... I am skeptical when people say they do something "out of the kindness of their heart." Usually there is a reason, even if its just "to feel like I'm better than others" or "to go to heaven when I die."

First, way to go! It's rare to find someone who has spent a lifetime volunteering. We need more people to do that.

Second, don't sell yourself short. I doubt you were entirely motivated to feel better by helping others. Maybe you just have a huge heart. I'm inclined to believe THAT versus what you wrote.

It's a misunderstanding of Christianity to believe that our works can earn us a place in Heaven. Over and over this is negated in Scripture. We're taught that only by grace are we allowed into Heaven. That cannot be earned. No good deeds earn us any reward.

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Altruism in Christian theology is a DUTY out of genuine love for Jesus. It's not an exchange. Jesus must increase and we must decrease. The longer you're a Christian, the more abundantly you become aware of what Grace means and Forgiveness and being unworthy of Heaven on one's own merits.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

First, way to go! It's rare to find someone who has spent a lifetime volunteering. We need more people to do that.

Second, don't sell yourself short. I doubt you were entirely motivated to feel better by helping others. Maybe you just have a huge heart. I'm inclined to believe THAT versus what you wrote.

It's a misunderstanding of Christianity to believe that our works can earn us a place in Heaven. Over and over this is negated in Scripture. We're taught that only by grace are we allowed into Heaven. That cannot be earned. No good deeds earn us any reward.

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Altruism in Christian theology is a DUTY out of genuine love for Jesus. It's not an exchange. Jesus must increase and we must decrease. The longer you're a Christian, the more abundantly you become aware of what Grace means and Forgiveness and being unworthy of Heaven on one's own merits.

It's rare to hear someone say that there are lots of reasons that they have done what they've done, as opposed to the "I have honored the lord with my own martyrdom" stance you seem to be advocating, which is much more common. Perhaps if you really think this volunteering business is so startlingly rare you need to get out of your little christian circle a bit more.

 

[Crackerbox]

You do realize that much of Christian missions work helps Muslims and Animists in Africa. That much of domestic missionary work to help the impoverished is never thanked. If you think honoring Jesus is a worthless gift, then I have to ask if you've actually considered that by reading the Gospels?

No words I can say will persuade you. I wouldn't begin to try. You're choosing to reject GOD and Jesus all on your own...with eternal consequences.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It's rare to hear someone say that there are lots of reasons that they have done what they've done, as opposed to the "I have honored the lord with my own martyrdom" stance you seem to be advocating, which is much more common. Perhaps if you really think this volunteering business is so startlingly rare you need to get out of your little christian circle a bit more.

Yeah I chuckle a little bit or just shake my head whenever I hear people criticize the President for being a "Community Organizer"... They just don't get it, that when you are a Black kid in college you get relentlessly guilt-tripped about it... "Don't you wanna give back to the community?!?" or "You need to share your success with your people!" on and on, everyday, there are people telling you that you're not fullfilling your duty as a Black person if you don't sign up for a bunch of community service. It was a big part of the college culture for the Black kids in particular... Nobodys guilt tripping you to be a doctor, but eveyones guilt tripping you about "giving back" through community service... Its just an ingrained part of the perception that this is what you're expected to do... so you do it... but hey, I got a wife out of it so whatevs