Altruism

[Timsup2nothin]

You do realize that much of Christian missions work helps Muslims and Animists in Africa. That much of domestic missionary work to help the impoverished is never thanked. If you think honoring Jesus is a worthless gift, then I have to ask if you've actually considered that by reading the Gospels?

No words I can say will persuade you. I wouldn't begin to try. You're choosing to reject GOD and Jesus all on your own...with eternal consequences.

Unlike approximately 80% of Christians I have known I have read the entire new testament and unlike at least 95% of Christians I've known I've also read much of the old testament (those seemingly endless lineage things make me doubt the veracity of anyone who claims to have read it all and I freely admit to skipping them). Nothing in my reading left me believing I was an authority on the dispensing of eternal consequences. How did I miss that do you think?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah I chuckle a little bit or just shake my head whenever I hear people criticize the President for being a "Community Organizer"... They just don't get it, that when you are a Black kid in college you get relentlessly guilt-tripped about it... "Don't you wanna give back to the community?!?" or "You need to share your success with your people!" on and on, everyday, there are people telling you that you're not fullfilling your duty as a Black person if you don't sign up for a bunch of community service. It was a big part of the college culture for the Black kids in particular... Nobodys guilt tripping you to be a doctor, but eveyones guilt tripping you about "giving back" through community service... Its just an ingrained part of the perception that this is what you're expected to do... so you do it... but hey, I got a wife out of it so whatevs

I admire you, for whatever that's worth...though I wouldn't marry you over it.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You do realize that much of Christian missions work helps Muslims and Animists in Africa. That much of domestic missionary work to help the impoverished is never thanked. If you think honoring Jesus is a worthless gift, then I have to ask if you've actually considered that by reading the Gospels?

No words I can say will persuade you. I wouldn't begin to try. You're choosing to reject GOD and Jesus all on your own...with eternal consequences.

Is this work done without the expectation that the recipients will have to sit through a lecture or sermon on Christianity? If so, great. It's altruistic. But if not, then it's not altruistic, since there are strings attached.

As for not trying to persuade people... every time I see that dark blue font and the bible verses, I am reminded of the JWs on my front porch. One thing I haven't had to put up with for the last several years is door-knockers. I didn't expect to find one here on CFC.

There are zero "eternal consequences" for rejecting God, god, GOD, gOd, goD, gOD, GOd, or however else you want to spell it. Why not leave the preaching in the other thread, 'k?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Having ones door knocked on is such an intrusion! Hard to imagine that it used to be a normal way for salesmen to make a living.

 

[Sommerswerd]

My beloved, dearly departed Mother was a devout Jehovah's Witness... which meant I got to spend every Saturday for seven years of my life knocking on peoples doors and trying to convince them of things I didn't even believe myself ... At 12 years old I finally had to join the football team to reclaim my Saturdays *sigh*

Still... I would gladly subject myself to another seven years of it if I could spend just one more day with Mom... but that's not how it works...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Having ones door knocked on is such an intrusion! Hard to imagine that it used to be a normal way for salesmen to make a living.

It is when they shove a pamphlet or bible in your face and start yapping about Jesus... and when you say you're not interested, they don't do the courteous thing and leave. There were a couple of occasions when I had to threaten to call the cops, because they absolutely would not get off the porch after they were politely told I wasn't interested, then asked to leave, then told to leave, and so on.

As for salesmen... nowadays they do it online, and I can either read the message or delete it as I please. Of course the telemarketers are intrusive, but that problem is solved by taking the phone off the hook. I finally dealt with the door-knockers by getting my dad to disconnect the doorbell. Now that I'm in an apartment with a decent security setup, the only annoyance I have to put up with is the occasional junk mail from one of the local funeral homes.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Must be a Canadian thing. I've lived all across the US and had my door knocked on...what...thirty or forty times a year on average, for forty years I can remember...

Never has anyone shoved something in my face, or been anything other than reasonably courteous.

Of course I don't go off the handle at the mere mention of religion either, so your mileage may vary.

 

[Borachio]

Maybe was probably misused, there is probably some crazy hypothetical where it wouldn't be (some madmen forces you to have sex with a person or he kills both of you) but yeah, its about as purely selfish an act as I can think of.

Interestingly and totally by-the-by, during the Bosnian war I heard tell of a guy who was given the choice of having sex with his mother or dying. He chose to die.

First: I think it's important to emphisise that altruistic acts don't have to be without reward, but rather that it's done not with the intent to be rewarded.

And I don't like the argument that altruistic acts actually are selfish because you reward yourself with a good feeling (or like endorfins).
No-one has a thought process of "I will help others to get emotionally high". The drive to be helpful is subconcious. It's a natural process, not something you can control.
Like, to say that altruism is say greedy because of say endorfin stimulance implies that greed is a more "real" thing than the feeling of helping. It's not, greed are processes in the brain like other emotions, not the reason for the others.

Actually, I found that "helping" (for a given definition of the word "helping") actually does make me feel better and even at times "emotionally high".

Hearing something over and over doesn't make it the truth.

That's true.

But on the other hand, keeping on saying the same things over and over can eventually get other people to agree maybe, even if they're not true things. That's the whole idea behind propaganda. And advertizing.

Naw, there are lots of people who only tokenly give. They gave $10 to the Ice Bucket Challenge, and remember that as their moment of charity for an entire year.

Maybe all gifts are only tokens?

There's a small cohort of people who give at a level that actually comes out of their consumption (instead of out of their savings). I know these types of people, and it's an order of magnitude more than people who cluck their tongues while saying "oh, it's awful about situation X, the government should DO something!".

I think that's maybe still tokenism.

But to go to Lohrenswald's point about the 'feeling good'. That's why I distinguished my motivations. Sometimes I did stuff 'cause it made me feel good. Sometimes I behave altruistically because I feel an empathic pain if I don't. These are (to me) different motivations. They feel different.

So. These are your carrots and sticks?

I vastly more enjoy the donations I make that are agreements I've made with myself. Gloves for panhandlers, or $21 every time someone asks me for help with a medical charity. But, sometimes I just feel awful about a situation, and I'll give in order to relieve the guilt I feel for having done too little to help pre-emptively

That's curious. Why $21? That seems a very specific amount.

When I read a post like this, then I'm not surprised that American giving is at its lowest in history. Volunteerism is way down. And why not, if some folks think it's about feeling good instead of a responsibility of being born?

It's a tragic indictment of apathy, that not only excuses itself, but discourages anyone else to give.

If more people thought it was about feeling good, then more people would do it, wouldn't they?

Does it really matter why people do things? Doesn't it matter more what they do?

Must be a Canadian thing. I've lived all across the US and had my door knocked on...what...thirty or forty times a year on average, for forty years I can remember...

Never has anyone shoved something in my face, or been anything other than reasonably courteous.

Of course I don't go off the handle at the mere mention of religion either, so your mileage may vary.

That's my experience of JWs. I've never found them pushy or annoying. Though I have, on occasion, deliberately not answered the door when I knew it was them.

After all, a chat with them more than once every two years is a bit more than either they, or I, need.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Actually, I found that "helping" (for a given definition of the word "helping") actually does make me feel better and even at times "emotionally high".

But you're not helping with the explicit purpose of achiving that feeling, are you?

 

[Borachio]

I wouldn't have been so motivated the first time, no. But I might have been intrigued by the effect.

So it would probably have been a significant factor in why I might continue to do so.

(If I do. I'm not claiming I do. Oh dear me no!)

Oh I am a cat that likes to
Gallop about doing good
So
One day when I was
Galloping about doing good, I saw
A Figure in the path; I said
Get off! (Be-
cause
I am a cat that likes to
Gallop about doing good)
But he did not move, instead
He raised his hand as if
To land me a cuff
So I made to dodge so as to
Prevent him bringing it orf,
Un-for-tune-ately I slid
On a banana skin
Some Ass had left instead
Of putting it in the bin. So
His hand caught me on the cheek
I tried
To lay his arm open from wrist to elbow
With my sharp teeth
Because I am
A cat that likes to gallop about doing good.
Would you believe it?
He wasn’t there
My teeth met nothing but air,
But a Voice said: Poor Cat
(Meaning me) and a soft stroke
Came on me head
Since when
I have been bald
I regard myself as
A martyr to doing good.
Also I heard a swoosh,
As of wings, and saw
A halo shining at the height of
Mrs Gubbins’s backyard fence,
So I thought: What’s the good
Of galloping about doing good
When angels stand in the path
And do not do as they should
Such as having an arm to be bitten off
All the same I
Intend to go on being
A cat that likes to
Gallop about doing good
So
Now with my bald head I go,
Chopping the untidy flowers down, to and fro,
An’ scooping up the grass to show
Underneath
The cinder path of wrath
Ha ha ha ha, ho,
Angels aren’t the only ones who do not know
What’s what and that
Galloping about doing good
Is a full-time job
That needs
An experienced eye of earthly
Sharpness, worth I dare say
(if you’ll forgive a personal note)
A good deal more
Than all that skyey stuff
Of angels that make so bold as
To pity a cat like me that
Gallops about doing good.

In the end, it's all a bit of a mixed bag, to be honest.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think that's maybe still tokenism.

Maybe, but I feel like there's a difference. We live in such a short-term society. For many people, savings are somewhat 'accidental'. It's what they have left over after living the way they want to. Other people have savings plans. But each person chooses a level of lifestyle they want before deciding their savings rate.

And then there's the question of how much lifestyle they forgo in order to have charity dollars to mobilize. There's a subset who choose to restrict their consumption in order to afford more charity. And then whether it's token or not is mostly a matter of scale.

So. These are your carrots and sticks?

Well, I've got transhumanist leanings. We're motivated to iteratively make the world a better place, so that the future is better than the past (as far as we can make it). My 'carrots' happen when I think of win/win ways to donate money, where I think I'm helping create a better future through (hopefully) positive feedback mechanisms. That's probably my carrot.

My stick is empathic guilt, where I cannot justify the marginal hedonism some of my consumption will bring when I compare it to the suffering it would alleviate. From my perspective, it takes an enormous callousness to not be pro-active on this front, but I recognize that I have an aberrant mindset.

The $21 is to make the donations easy to find at tax time,

So, in sum, I think altruism can be measured using various dimensions. How 'in-group' you focus your giving. How much consumption people forgo. Whether it's done out of guilt or for the feel-good effect.

 

[warpus]

I will never find people who go door to door to spread their faith as normal. To me it's weird and/or crazy, no offense to resident Mormons and other people who did such things. I just can't relate to it.

"Hi, have I told you yet what I believe?" - Dude, like, send me an email instead or something, then at least you won't be bugging me when I'm trying to watch my English Premier League or trying to sleep in. I don't really care what you believe either, thanks. I mean, I do, but you don't need to really tell me, it's not that interesting really.

Mind you the only time this happened to me was on a Saturday morning and I got woken up by these weirdos, so I might be slightly biased.

 

[Borachio]

Baloney. It's largely about giving back due to responsibility. You hear that over and over. Heck, what made you think such negative things about a positive aid to the impoverished? Why not work on a Habitat for Humanity project even once before you make such negative assumptions. Nobody there is working on improving their self-image. They're sweating and donating time, talent, and treasure to get a roof over the head of a Brother and Sister.

The team digging a well isn't trying to feel good about themselves. They could buy themselves some new consumer item cheaply and easily versus traveling to Africa and sleeping on the floor so villagers can finally have clean water.

It's an interesting project alright.

But I'm not so sure it doesn't have some limitations.

An article in the Weekly Standard, an American neoconservative opinion magazine, questioned the cost-effectiveness of Habitat building projects. To estimate cost effectiveness, all costs associated with building a Habitat home must be used, including the cost of volunteer time and training.[42] For houses constructed by foreign volunteers, travel and associated costs paid by the volunteers are also significant. Including these costs raises the question whether building a house this way is an efficient use of resources. Particularly in developing countries where labor is relatively inexpensive, unemployment is high, and local currency is cheap, purchasing local labor and supplies may result in an increase in the number of houses built.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_for_Humanity

Sometimes, it's better (in terms of cost efficiency) just to donate money.

I'm not sure that a, presumably middleclass, volunteer's time and money couldn't be better spent than travelling to a 3rd World country and spending what amounts to a holiday in "helping" on a construction site.

Incidentally, the current thinking has it that donating money for famine relief, in particular, is plain better than shipping in a lot of foreign food, distorting the local market and making matters worse for nearly everyone. Instead input cash, and so stimulate the economy of the surrounding districts of a famine-affected area.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I admire you, for whatever that's worth...though I wouldn't marry you over it.

Thanks man that's really nice of you to say. Yeah I don't think you are quite my type... Specifically, I think you're too old for me IIRC

I will never find people who go door to door to spread their faith as normal. To me it's weird and/or crazy, no offense to resident Mormons and other people who did such things. I just can't relate to it.

I have to say that I appreciate that (most) people (intentionally or not) seem to be considerate of me mentioning my Mom being one of those annoying door knockers... in that I can tell that most of you have held back a little in expressing your irritation, and commented on their politeness, etc.

You guys didn't have to be so gentle and I appreciate it... I know it was super annoying, I cringed every time I had to ring someone's bell... I knew they were going to be annoyed or furious or disinterested or all of the above. But I had no choice, I was a kid, and it made Mom happy.

Just try to think of that the next time some little kid is at your door offering you a "Watchtower" magazine, with a parent nodding in the background.

 

[Borachio]

I've never minded the JWs really - and some of them have had children in tow. It does get just a little tiresome though. Because it's the same old message time after time. And they never seem to treat me with anything like condescension and looks of pity because I don't immediately agree with them on things like evolution and the age of the Earth.

I've heard too, that their turnover of converts is really very high. A very great number of people do join the JWs only to leave a year or two later.

 

[warpus]

Well, it only happened to me once, and it wasn't a huge deal - so I wasn't holding back really - I wrote down exactly how I feel about it pretty much.

It's also hard to get upset at proper looking dudes wearing such gentleman-like attire, speaking in soft and very agreeable tones. The people who show up at my door trying to sell stuff are usually a lot more annoying. One guy put his foot in the door when I was trying to close it - I had to get out there, find his supervisor walking up and down my street, and yelled at him. That would never happen with one of these "C'mon let me tell you about all the things that I believe" people.

I've never minded the JWs really - and some of them have had children in tow. It does get just a little tiresome though.

Just be like.. "Alright, I'll join your organization.. for $500"

 

[Sommerswerd]

I've heard too, that their turnover of converts is really very high. A very great number of people do join the JWs only to leave a year or two later.

No Christmas ... That's a dealbreaker for me

I don't know what the turnover numbers are... Its an interesting question, because the religion is heavily structured around retention...

 

[Borachio]

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php

I like how they call themselves "publishers"! I didn't know that.

 

[El_Machinae]

I tend to not get mad at them. In the end, they're honestly trying to make the world a better place. I reserve my anger for those who intentionally make the world a worse place, for their own benefit.

Now, I'm not interested in conversion, but I'm interested in conversation. And, I like making the world a better place too. If they come at me with the Ten Commandments, I come back at them with Jesus's two laws as being vastly superior. If they're Mormons, I happily say 'hi' to them since I can suspect they're on mission.

Now, I'd rather they work towards different charity efforts, but I won't begrudge them their intent. There are too many anti-altruistism people out there, too many purely selfish people as well

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I would like to know how Warpus, or anyone, has only had this happen once. When I said thirty-forty times a year I wasn't exaggerating. At my gf's house, where I mostly hang out, a Saturday without a visit from at least two out of the JW, Baptists, and this local non-denominational outreach ministries group is unusual. They even show up during the week now and again.

As to their desire to share their beliefs...blame the bible. It tells them they are saved and that they owe it to those who "have not heard the good news" to share it. The science faithful believe in the power of education to make a better society...and they enact truancy laws, so it's not like they are any less aggressive about proselytizing.