Always Peace
- Thread starter Spoonwood
- Start date
I think we can get both Smith's and J.S. Bach's at the same time if we want to MM it up. I never investigate cities myself. Hit F7 and find out which city Germany has building Smith's. Then investigate that city if you feel the need. I wouldn't it, but it's your call. I'd prefer to trade for their world map, find that city, and count how many shields they have going in and estimate their build time arithmetically. I haven't done that either, but I'd prefer that over investigation. It comes as your call, and your turns to play though, so do whatever you feel most comfortable with.
Well, I've played through my 10 turns. I have good news and bad news, on two fronts.
Bad news 1: We're at war again.
Good news 1: We have war happiness, and it's only the English.
Bad news 2: This game is probably going to get anticlimactic pretty soon.
Good news 2: Because I can't see us losing.
Full turn log below. No screenies, but you can figure things out, and it'll make opening the save more like Christmas.
Preflight changes:
I concur with Music Theory right now. Especially at 60%.
Take a look at things. I can lower the lux slider to 10% with just a taxman at Orleans (takes no shields, grows in 5 instead of 2, OK with me!) and Avignon (curiously, removing the hill for a taxman loses only one shield; the other two were corrupt. Made no sense to me, but OK. And this costs the market no turns.)
Switch Lyons to market. Switch Brest to market. Switch Strasbourg to temple. Decide to upgrade a vHorse in Marseilles to a knight. You know, just in case.
MM Cherbourg to still get the duct but to grow in the meanwhile. MM Tours onto a hill to get the University in 3 (also grows then).
Pull a worker off mining duty near Tours to come irrigate a grassland at Lyons.
Boy, Mao is hosed, isn't he?
Somehow I guess the other nine civs won't be.
And that's all.
Wonders: Really, the ONLY way I can see losing any of our wonders is to somehow have Germany get a SGL soon to rush a wonder. And the only spots they can do that are with Chemistry and Printing Press... but they just got Music Theory. So I would research Printing Press next, then beeline to Theory of Gravity. We should have that about the time Smith's finishes. Then finish out the middle ages. We should comfortably get Smith's, Bach's, Newton's (in Paris, after Smith's finishes there, it'll take 10 turns, and we'll have killed available wonders save Magellan's) and I think we can even nab Magellan's in the golden age.
Smith's comes in 15 turns. Again, during that time we should finish Chemistry (2), Printing Press (4), Physics (4 or 5), and Theory of Gravity (4 or 5), which should allow a seamless transition into Newton's for Paris. Rouen gets Bach's in 19 (really probably 17 or 18 once the GA hits). Rouen is the logical choice, IMO, for the Theory of Evolution. It needs a bank after Bach's, but then is free to go.
Settlers: Believe it or not, we need some! I'm not sure where to take them from, though. I have one that just started the journey from Dijon to the saltpeter. There's room for another city (or two) CxxC from Avignon and Besancon to the east. In particular, the Inca aren't using two BGs near Avignon. Further, we could settle the island west of Persia with no competition right now. I don't know what it's good for but my guess would be "something". Coal, maybe?
We can get at least a couple of semi-useful cities there and a few fishing villages. If you are feeling VERY frisky, there's some ivory waiting to be poached over on the other island... 
Wars: It should be a fairly high priority to convert our existing defensive units to musketeers. To date we have been able to avoid any semblance of serious offense from the AI because of their lack of iron. When cavalry hits, as it eventually will, we want to be ready. I want one musketeer in every city, at a minimum. We have 26 cities (and plan to build at least 1-3 more on our borders) and I would maybe want to see something like 40 musketeers in the field. If we could get two per city, I'd feel even better. We have 4 spears and 18 pikes, with a pike in Marseilles due to kick out in 2 turns. So we are not that far off my minimum of one musketeer per city. Pikes to musketeers is 90g; spears to musketeers is 120g. So we need a little over 2000g to convert our defense to musketeers. I think that is very doable, especially with our pending golden age. We also have various warriors, horses, and a sword that should be upgraded or disbanded at your discretion. I would do this after the musketeers though.
Liz should be ready to talk in about 2-3 turns? I don't expect there to be a problem getting peace.
Workers: I've merged a couple in slow-growing areas in past turns. We have 18 native workers and 19 slaves. That seems adequate for now but won't once we get rails available. I'd suggest laying off merging any more (except, possibly, at New Tours to max shields there). The priorities for our workers, until rails, are to forest in the last spaces near Grenoble/New Tours/Orleans; mine the mountain near Orleans (it can make use of it), and to continue to improve in the north. There is also a roaded but unworked grass near Tours, not that it needs it right now.
Trades: We have a spare dyes at the moment; I haven't seen a particular buyer for it to date. Also a spare iron, which for obvious reasons I am not selling to Sumeria or Persia--and they are the only two buyers for it at the moment. Carthage is getting our spare horses; as far as I'm concerned they can have them as long as they want.
I see no further reason to allow ROPs. They may or may not keep the AI slightly happy (note they did not prevent 3 AIs from attempting to ROP-rape us). But by having them we have to defend a lot more territory that we could better use the defenders with.
Contacts: You should contact the Babylonians next turn. They look pretty powerful in land mass, and there could be some interesting opportunities there. I hope they are at best even with Germany in tech.
Moves: Before you hit Enter, move at least one (if not two) knights from Rheims up to New Orleans, and a knight (and maybe another unit or two) from Tours to Strasbourg, in case of Incan backstab or approaching redcoats. I don't deem it likely, but there's no reason to chance it.
Bad news 1: We're at war again.
Good news 1: We have war happiness, and it's only the English.
Bad news 2: This game is probably going to get anticlimactic pretty soon.
Good news 2: Because I can't see us losing.
Full turn log below. No screenies, but you can figure things out, and it'll make opening the save more like Christmas.
Preflight changes:
I concur with Music Theory right now. Especially at 60%.
Take a look at things. I can lower the lux slider to 10% with just a taxman at Orleans (takes no shields, grows in 5 instead of 2, OK with me!) and Avignon (curiously, removing the hill for a taxman loses only one shield; the other two were corrupt. Made no sense to me, but OK. And this costs the market no turns.)
Switch Lyons to market. Switch Brest to market. Switch Strasbourg to temple. Decide to upgrade a vHorse in Marseilles to a knight. You know, just in case.
MM Cherbourg to still get the duct but to grow in the meanwhile. MM Tours onto a hill to get the University in 3 (also grows then).
Pull a worker off mining duty near Tours to come irrigate a grassland at Lyons.
Boy, Mao is hosed, isn't he?
Somehow I guess the other nine civs won't be.Spoiler :
turns at 14 spt; they have some capacity to grow that but I can't see them getting to 20 spt. They are already out of their golden age. I feel MUCH better now.
Thanks to culture expansion at Bayonne, there's one that isn't roaded but is in our borders in the desert. I plan to settle right on top of this to firm up our claim there.And that's all.
Wonders: Really, the ONLY way I can see losing any of our wonders is to somehow have Germany get a SGL soon to rush a wonder. And the only spots they can do that are with Chemistry and Printing Press... but they just got Music Theory. So I would research Printing Press next, then beeline to Theory of Gravity. We should have that about the time Smith's finishes. Then finish out the middle ages. We should comfortably get Smith's, Bach's, Newton's (in Paris, after Smith's finishes there, it'll take 10 turns, and we'll have killed available wonders save Magellan's) and I think we can even nab Magellan's in the golden age.
Smith's comes in 15 turns. Again, during that time we should finish Chemistry (2), Printing Press (4), Physics (4 or 5), and Theory of Gravity (4 or 5), which should allow a seamless transition into Newton's for Paris. Rouen gets Bach's in 19 (really probably 17 or 18 once the GA hits). Rouen is the logical choice, IMO, for the Theory of Evolution. It needs a bank after Bach's, but then is free to go.
Settlers: Believe it or not, we need some! I'm not sure where to take them from, though. I have one that just started the journey from Dijon to the saltpeter. There's room for another city (or two) CxxC from Avignon and Besancon to the east. In particular, the Inca aren't using two BGs near Avignon. Further, we could settle the island west of Persia with no competition right now. I don't know what it's good for but my guess would be "something". Coal, maybe?
We can get at least a couple of semi-useful cities there and a few fishing villages. If you are feeling VERY frisky, there's some ivory waiting to be poached over on the other island... Wars: It should be a fairly high priority to convert our existing defensive units to musketeers. To date we have been able to avoid any semblance of serious offense from the AI because of their lack of iron. When cavalry hits, as it eventually will, we want to be ready. I want one musketeer in every city, at a minimum. We have 26 cities (and plan to build at least 1-3 more on our borders) and I would maybe want to see something like 40 musketeers in the field. If we could get two per city, I'd feel even better. We have 4 spears and 18 pikes, with a pike in Marseilles due to kick out in 2 turns. So we are not that far off my minimum of one musketeer per city. Pikes to musketeers is 90g; spears to musketeers is 120g. So we need a little over 2000g to convert our defense to musketeers. I think that is very doable, especially with our pending golden age. We also have various warriors, horses, and a sword that should be upgraded or disbanded at your discretion. I would do this after the musketeers though.
Liz should be ready to talk in about 2-3 turns? I don't expect there to be a problem getting peace.
Workers: I've merged a couple in slow-growing areas in past turns. We have 18 native workers and 19 slaves. That seems adequate for now but won't once we get rails available. I'd suggest laying off merging any more (except, possibly, at New Tours to max shields there). The priorities for our workers, until rails, are to forest in the last spaces near Grenoble/New Tours/Orleans; mine the mountain near Orleans (it can make use of it), and to continue to improve in the north. There is also a roaded but unworked grass near Tours, not that it needs it right now.
Trades: We have a spare dyes at the moment; I haven't seen a particular buyer for it to date. Also a spare iron, which for obvious reasons I am not selling to Sumeria or Persia--and they are the only two buyers for it at the moment. Carthage is getting our spare horses; as far as I'm concerned they can have them as long as they want.
I see no further reason to allow ROPs. They may or may not keep the AI slightly happy (note they did not prevent 3 AIs from attempting to ROP-rape us). But by having them we have to defend a lot more territory that we could better use the defenders with.
Contacts: You should contact the Babylonians next turn. They look pretty powerful in land mass, and there could be some interesting opportunities there. I hope they are at best even with Germany in tech.
Moves: Before you hit Enter, move at least one (if not two) knights from Rheims up to New Orleans, and a knight (and maybe another unit or two) from Tours to Strasbourg, in case of Incan backstab or approaching redcoats. I don't deem it likely, but there's no reason to chance it.
"Trade him Math for 12g + WM."
LOL!
I don't think Lizzie would have declared on us if you had re-signed the RoP. The AI sometimes seems to run around your territory and then go home.
The RoPs WILL keep the AIs significantly happier. I've had jumps from annoyed to polite when re-signing them on many games. I've played like 5 or 6 games with them signed all the time at least, and NOT had my inner cities attacked ever. I have gotten outer cities attacked, but not my inner cities. I even had an emperor-level pangea game where I had Carthaginian ancient cavalry run past my capital and not attack me, and they had probably the weakest position in the world. I think Lizzie just wanted to look around. Did you see the screenshot from my Deity game? They didn't attack me... and I didn't upgrade warriors to anything until I refused to give the Hitties Electricity. This does seem to work out *slightly* differently since we have a continents map and we don't have any militaristic tribes around, but the RoPs still work as our best friend. Check Bamspeedy's article on AI attitude here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44999 Our other powerful option to keep them happy consists of gifting them cash... say 100 gold every 10 turns.
Lizzie *would have* signed the RoP with us. If she had still declared war on us, I feel sure enough that the other AIs would have a worse attitude towards her. So, either that would lead to war between the AIs on our continent, or would make it easier for them to go to war if they RoP raped us again. The AI doesn't declare war until it has a unit that can attack a unit of ours. It doesn't declare war on its borders and then sends units over to attack us... at least I've never seen it. Other than our ships, we have all our units in our territory, so almost all hypothetical future attacks would involve RoP rape... almost surely bad for AI-AI attitude, since its bad for human-AI attitude. If they start declaring war on each other, even if they still want to attack us, they'll send less units on over to our borders. I can't emphasize it enough... *keep the RoPs signed at all times*.
If you don't want to keep the RoPs signed, we may as well abandon the variant, burn the charter, and go clear the continent. If you think the game will get anticlimactic soon and you'll get bored with it, we can go clear the continent, if you like. I'd rather do that then either of us get bored with this thing. I'll wait to play until you respond.
LOL!
I don't think Lizzie would have declared on us if you had re-signed the RoP. The AI sometimes seems to run around your territory and then go home.
The RoPs WILL keep the AIs significantly happier. I've had jumps from annoyed to polite when re-signing them on many games. I've played like 5 or 6 games with them signed all the time at least, and NOT had my inner cities attacked ever. I have gotten outer cities attacked, but not my inner cities. I even had an emperor-level pangea game where I had Carthaginian ancient cavalry run past my capital and not attack me, and they had probably the weakest position in the world. I think Lizzie just wanted to look around. Did you see the screenshot from my Deity game? They didn't attack me... and I didn't upgrade warriors to anything until I refused to give the Hitties Electricity. This does seem to work out *slightly* differently since we have a continents map and we don't have any militaristic tribes around, but the RoPs still work as our best friend. Check Bamspeedy's article on AI attitude here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44999 Our other powerful option to keep them happy consists of gifting them cash... say 100 gold every 10 turns.
Lizzie *would have* signed the RoP with us. If she had still declared war on us, I feel sure enough that the other AIs would have a worse attitude towards her. So, either that would lead to war between the AIs on our continent, or would make it easier for them to go to war if they RoP raped us again. The AI doesn't declare war until it has a unit that can attack a unit of ours. It doesn't declare war on its borders and then sends units over to attack us... at least I've never seen it. Other than our ships, we have all our units in our territory, so almost all hypothetical future attacks would involve RoP rape... almost surely bad for AI-AI attitude, since its bad for human-AI attitude. If they start declaring war on each other, even if they still want to attack us, they'll send less units on over to our borders. I can't emphasize it enough... *keep the RoPs signed at all times*.
If you don't want to keep the RoPs signed, we may as well abandon the variant, burn the charter, and go clear the continent. If you think the game will get anticlimactic soon and you'll get bored with it, we can go clear the continent, if you like. I'd rather do that then either of us get bored with this thing. I'll wait to play until you respond.
Trust me, in this specific case, it was VERY clear that she was heading for something specific. I'm pretty sure it was one of our central towns that was defended with just a warrior. She may not have declared war on that turn... but it was going to be very very soon, and we were not going to like it when she grabbed, say, Marseilles. And keep in mind that if she nabbed a town, we would never be able to get it back (excluding a culture flip).
If you want to continue with the ROPs, I'll go along with it. Just wait 1 turn on your turnset and do it, and I'll never have to worry about 'em again. (I kid, I kid.)
And my "anticlimactic" statement was a bit of a stretch, don't worry. I think we're in a VERY strong position, but given the rules there is still plenty that can go wrong in theory.
If you want to continue with the ROPs, I'll go along with it. Just wait 1 turn on your turnset and do it, and I'll never have to worry about 'em again.
(I kid, I kid.)And my "anticlimactic" statement was a bit of a stretch, don't worry. I think we're in a VERY strong position, but given the rules there is still plenty that can go wrong in theory.
I actually kind of feel worried that Leibniz might beat us to The Calculus. I wouldn't worry about it if they build the school of The Calculus first though.
Letting S stand for an elongated S... if you feel Leibniz might start writing
S (dy/dx f(x))dx=f(x), and dy/dx S f(x)dx=f(x) before us somehow, just finish off TOG in Paris immediately and have Rouen finish talking about The Wealth of Nations. The question really becomes, will Lebiniz start thinking about writing in calculus in 9 or so turns? I don't know... and I don't think it matters... your call.
Concerning industrial research, we do plan to ignore nationalism, communism, fascism, ironclads, and espionage... at least in terms of us researching them right? I think sanitation a good deal for us. I often will research Medicine, then Sanitation, then Steam Power and Industrialization. We can go the other way too and reserach Steam Power and then Industrialization. I think growth matters for science more, so I think going for Sanitation first better, but that'll end up your call. You can gift the scientific civs into the industrial age if you like and then trade for their techs/buy them... or just get a cheaper tech price on their free techs if you like. Your call there. Once we have hospitals and rails I usually irrigate all squares... I don't see us needing all that much production... scientists and more squares used comes as more beneficial. Have fun... and the save:
Spoiler :
Letting S stand for an elongated S... if you feel Leibniz might start writing
S (dy/dx f(x))dx=f(x), and dy/dx S f(x)dx=f(x) before us somehow, just finish off TOG in Paris immediately and have Rouen finish talking about The Wealth of Nations. The question really becomes, will Lebiniz start thinking about writing in calculus in 9 or so turns? I don't know... and I don't think it matters... your call.
Concerning industrial research, we do plan to ignore nationalism, communism, fascism, ironclads, and espionage... at least in terms of us researching them right? I think sanitation a good deal for us. I often will research Medicine, then Sanitation, then Steam Power and Industrialization. We can go the other way too and reserach Steam Power and then Industrialization. I think growth matters for science more, so I think going for Sanitation first better, but that'll end up your call. You can gift the scientific civs into the industrial age if you like and then trade for their techs/buy them... or just get a cheaper tech price on their free techs if you like. Your call there. Once we have hospitals and rails I usually irrigate all squares... I don't see us needing all that much production... scientists and more squares used comes as more beneficial. Have fun... and the save:
I'm all for the irrigation thing.. but there's still plenty to build in the early industrial ages (factories, stock exchanges), so irrigating is a bit premature. After that we can maybe go that route (although, if we do I want a pretty stocked military so we don't have emergency issues we can't handle).
I'll take a look at the save today (I devoted the weekend to taking care of the GOTM, and, uh, family stuff), may not play until tonight though.
Right now I don't think I'll be gifting anyone up; Germany is close enough that I'd rather not help them more than needed. I think we may pull off their free tech anyway (or at least have a shot at it).
I'll take a look at the save today (I devoted the weekend to taking care of the GOTM, and, uh, family stuff), may not play until tonight though.
Right now I don't think I'll be gifting anyone up; Germany is close enough that I'd rather not help them more than needed. I think we may pull off their free tech anyway (or at least have a shot at it).
Only had time for 4 turns over lunch; nothing exciting happened. I'll finish it up tonight. Germany doesn't yet have ToG or Metallurgy; I like our chances for the wonder sweep.
Start thinking about the implications of RoP and railing our empire. I am considering/planning a fairly significant musketeer binge over the rest of my turnset, assuming you plan to try to keep the RoPs intact.
Start thinking about the implications of RoP and railing our empire. I am considering/planning a fairly significant musketeer binge over the rest of my turnset, assuming you plan to try to keep the RoPs intact.
Well, a minor setback (read on), nothing we can't handle though. We are in our Golden Age, and alone (for now) in the Industrial Age.
840 AD preflight (with CA2, Notepad):
Builds prety much look fine. I look for a few opportunities to swap pikes into towns with barracks and musketeers into towns without. There aren't many that I can see right now. Consider swapping Chartres to a barracks, decide not to for now.
Hit Enter.
So, have fun... I actually suggest Industrialization after Steam, because getting factories while in our GA could be useful. Not that we have a lot to build, which is why I took the opportunity to crank up the military. Two muskets per town should be plenty, I'd think. We do have some obsolete units around that can probably just be disbanded (like, a few warriors).
Germany and Sumeria both need Magnetism to get to the next age (and their free tech). I don't know what else they could be going after (Democracy?), but they should get that pretty soon--so I would not gift them up. Let's get some trade bait first. Nationalism is useless for us, but there's better than a 50/50 shot that one of the two of them gets Medicine. Steam would be unfortunate, of course.
840 AD preflight (with CA2, Notepad):
Builds prety much look fine. I look for a few opportunities to swap pikes into towns with barracks and musketeers into towns without. There aren't many that I can see right now. Consider swapping Chartres to a barracks, decide not to for now.
Hit Enter.
Spoiler :
So, have fun... I actually suggest Industrialization after Steam, because getting factories while in our GA could be useful. Not that we have a lot to build, which is why I took the opportunity to crank up the military. Two muskets per town should be plenty, I'd think. We do have some obsolete units around that can probably just be disbanded (like, a few warriors).
Germany and Sumeria both need Magnetism to get to the next age (and their free tech). I don't know what else they could be going after (Democracy?), but they should get that pretty soon--so I would not gift them up. Let's get some trade bait first. Nationalism is useless for us, but there's better than a 50/50 shot that one of the two of them gets Medicine. Steam would be unfortunate, of course.
"Decide to ROP-rape Persia for Perseopolis."
Couldn't you have found a better place to philander?
"Not sure where you were heading with the New Tours settler"
I had no place to put it.
"German's cascade to Newton's."
I thought that might happen. Stupid Leibniz. Oh well... we have Copernicus's.
"Nationalism is useless for us, but there's better than a 50/50 shot that one of the two of them gets Medicine."
Not totally. Researching it would, for sure... but with Nationalism later on we can get Communism for police stations. Less corruption... faster research. I'll play tonight or tommorow.
Couldn't you have found a better place to philander?
"Not sure where you were heading with the New Tours settler"
I had no place to put it.
"German's cascade to Newton's."
I thought that might happen. Stupid Leibniz. Oh well... we have Copernicus's.
"Nationalism is useless for us, but there's better than a 50/50 shot that one of the two of them gets Medicine."
Not totally. Researching it would, for sure... but with Nationalism later on we can get Communism for police stations. Less corruption... faster research. I'll play tonight or tommorow.
Exactickly.
I played almost a turn. You can have the rest of the game... I don't think I want to play this one anymore.
I guess I should clarify... I think I just don't like the way succession games work. It's not you... I could see opening the file for the demi-god succession game and feeling the same way "wait... what's going on here? I know he gave a descriptive turn-log, but I just can't see how the details relate to the overall vision. It's like this game appeared out of nowhere or something. All this stuff has changed almost by magic. "Our" styles sort of differ, and this seems to cause us both to play sort of worse... or at least make it harder to optimize a plan." I feel sure I'd end up feeling this way about any succession game. Maybe I'll change my mind, but if I don't feel free to play this one out by yourself if you like. You can post results if you like also, or not.
I guess I should clarify... I think I just don't like the way succession games work. It's not you... I could see opening the file for the demi-god succession game and feeling the same way "wait... what's going on here? I know he gave a descriptive turn-log, but I just can't see how the details relate to the overall vision. It's like this game appeared out of nowhere or something. All this stuff has changed almost by magic. "Our" styles sort of differ, and this seems to cause us both to play sort of worse... or at least make it harder to optimize a plan." I feel sure I'd end up feeling this way about any succession game. Maybe I'll change my mind, but if I don't feel free to play this one out by yourself if you like. You can post results if you like also, or not.
Optional
Deity
Lurker's comment: I guess you can't really tell whether you're gonna like playing SG until you do. It was new to Doug. From what I can see, Doug. signed up for at least 3 SG's and has withdrawn from all of them. It seems that tells a simple story.
I'm afraid I can't help you play this one, Wetzel. I'm involved in a couple of SG's already.
I'm afraid I can't help you play this one, Wetzel. I'm involved in a couple of SG's already.
In one succession game I hadn't played a turn yet... I didn't like the game conditions once I understood them. That one I could tell I wouldn't like before I started to play. The other one I played a set of turns, and then realized that I would feel all "lost" by the time my second set of turns came around, after just feeling lost... maybe disoriented works as a better term... several times in this succession game... even though I missed only 10 turns. Maybe I should have figured this out sooner, and I apologize if I've upset anyone.
DWetzel,
Feel free to ask any questions you'd like.
DWetzel,
Feel free to ask any questions you'd like.
Nah... you've already answered pretty much everything I would have asked.
I'll offer you a compromise though--I plan to finish this game off over the next few days, and I'll probably take some notes as I go. Would you be willing to do the same (play it out to conclusion and post some info about the outcome)?
I'll offer you a compromise though--I plan to finish this game off over the next few days, and I'll probably take some notes as I go. Would you be willing to do the same (play it out to conclusion and post some info about the outcome)?
