Always Peace

[Spoonwood]

Sure, I'll do that. Sounds like fun actually. Which victory condition do I shoot for? And do you mind if I go back to the 840 save spot and play from there... or would you prefer if I start from 940?

 

[DWetzel]

I say let's go for space. Okay with me if you want to play from 840, might be interesting if you did the wonder swap you suggested... Certainly not required though.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

So, I decided to go back and play the Pre-Smith's turns. I built Newton's, and Smith's... the Sumerians got Bach's. I decided to actually turn research off for a turn, then I traded for Printing Press. I then reserached Democracy and then Free Artistry, and Paris got Shakespeare's Theater. I traded for Metallurgy, but Magnetism I had to research myself. The GA started right when I learned Free Artistry. When I finished Magnetism, I gifted all the scientific tribes on up. I then had some interesting deals (see screenies below). One of them involved masses of tech and some gold with the Russians. I think I swapped Free Artistry for Military Tradition a bit later. I reserached Sanitation as my first researched industrial-age tech.

I sent a worker and a slave to road up Persian land to trade coal with them... but they hadn't built a harbor in that town. So, I don't know what I'll do about coal yet. I've pulled 4 turners on everything I've reserached, and will learn The Corporation in a turn. I've traded some techs for gpt, including trading Electricity so that AI would research Replaceable Parts, and I think Sanitation got involved in a deal for Nationalism. No one even has Communism yet.

 

[DWetzel]

Opening salvo noted.

Did you swap the wonders or have that same unfortunate accident that I did? Edit: Never mind. Didn't see that pesky Spoiler button.

I'll probably play tonight.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

I forgot to mention that I cash-rushed some hospitals as soon as I learned Sanitation. I micromanaged the squares around Paris so it could use as many as possible (I didn't this for like 3 or 4 turns). I also started irrigating lots of squares... usually I railroad and then irrigate, but I didn't have that option here... I couldn't even trade for coal. I also had turned Grenoble into a worker pump from the first turn I started playing again. When I learned The Corporation, I noticed only one turn left on Woman's Suffrage. So, I sold/gifted Industrialization and the The Corporation to everyone. I then shut research off for a few turns as TOE would come in 3 turns. Steel took me 5 turns. In 1220, I traded Germany Scientific Method for Communism and sold it elsewhere in a few places, including a deal which quite surprised me. Remember how I traded all that tech to Russia and they seemed weak? They actually could give me some good money. I had moved some workers up to road an Incan jungle for coal. They parked an elite Chasqui Scout in front of my work crew on top of the coal for 2 or 3 turns and then finally moved it away. When I finally roaded it up, I still couldn't trade the Inca for coal for some strange reason. I suppose a glitch or something.

Refining took me 5 turns. Combustion took me 5 turns. In 1280 Replacable Parts finally became available. I had one source of rubber and a source of oil. Paris started on Battfield Medicine as a U.N. pre-build. In 1285 Babylon had an extra source of coal and I traded them for it. Of course, I immediately began railroading everything. In 1290 Rheims switched from a stock exchange to a Palace pre-build. In 1300 I learned Combustion and the AIs who could pay a decent gpt for Refining got (Sumeria, Germany, Babylon, Aztecs, Carthage).

 

[DWetzel]

Spoiler :

Played to 1180 AD so far. Just got ToE (for the usual Electronics slingshot), have Corporation, Nationalism, just started Refining in 6, will get Hoover in 16 in Paris (which built ToE), though I may cash-rush a hydro plant there first, I think that saves a bit of time. Wall Street next turn will be nice.

In my game I noted that India had a second (not hooked up) source of coal, so I was going to road that for them, then Germany showed up with some extra coal. So I traded for that, then went to road up India anyway.

Research (from 940) was Steam, Industrialization (with quite a few Factory prebuilds), trade for Medicine, research Sanitation, Electricity, Corp, Sci Method. The factories let me prebuild hospitals pretty efficiently with Colosseums pretty much everywhere.

Some screenshots attached for your viewing pleasure.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

The AIs apparently reserached Ironclads and Espionage instead of Flight... or at least some of them did so. So, I had to reserach Flight myself. This also resulted in that in 1350 I had to micro-manage by Palace and Battlefield Medicine pre-builds so they wouldn't finish too fast. Tours started on a Palace pre-build in 1355. In 1365 I learned Flight and entered the modern age. I then gifted/traded all the scientific tribes to the modern age. 2 tribes got Fission, 3 got Computers... good enough. I bought Computers from Cathy. Paris-SETI. Rheims-U.N., both due in 14. Actually, with the mountain gems back, Paris should get SETI in 12. Tours swaps to the Manhattan Project as a pre-build on The Internet/build Manhattan. I bought research labs just about everywhere else. To see how "crazy" I went exactly, check the save. From all the trading and buying my treasury went from 40,000+ gold down to 386 gold in a single turn. That settles it for me... you can never have enough gold. If someone had gotten Ecology I would have *ideally* wanted to cash-rush mass transits and solar plants soon after I rushed the labs. The labs took a turn off of Miniaturization.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

On the turn the labs finished, I changed Paris from a bunch of scientists to a bunch of civil engineers to hurry SETI in. In 1385 I started the mass add-in of workers. I only kept slaves, all workers joined the parties. Also, in 1385 I lost my supply of coal and decided not to trade for more... at least for a while. It lasted a turn, as a turn later Gandhi requested an audience wanting to swap maps for Flight. I changed it to coal, gpt, and his lump sum for Mass Production.

In 1390 China declared war on the Germans. In 1400 I learned Miniaturization. I then set about reseraching Ecology. And, of course, I had a pre-build switch to The Internet... though not the one building the Manhattan Project... I bulit it in Lyons. It originally said I would get Ecology in 6, but with some pollution cleaned and some civil engineers in Paris switched to scientists, and with SETI due in a turn, I would get it in 5. SETI completed in 1405, and then Paris bought a research lab. In 1410 4 AIs had Amphibious War, but no Rocketry yet. In 1415 I finished The Manhattan Project. In 1420 I finished the U.N. In 1425 I learned Ecology and immediately cash-rushed mass transit systems and a solar plant or two. I then reserached Synthetic Fibers, due in 5 turns. In 1425/1430 the Sumerians declared war on me. Of course, this meant war.

During the first turn I used mech infantry to attack obselte units like cavalry, horseman, or longbowman of the Sumerians and then had them retreat back to their cities. I made a few bad attacks. In 1435/1440 Sumeria declared war on Germany. Carthage and Sumeria also signed a military alliance against me. In 1445 Sumeria stupidly moved its SOD off the hill near Bordeaux which they parked there a turn earlier and smartly started some pillaging. In 1445 Russia learned Rocketry and I traded for it. I sold some more tech for gpt... including a deal to Mao. In 1450 the Sumerian SOD retrated to the hill (too many infantry to get at much in one turn). In 1450 I learned Synthetic Fibers and bought a bunch of modern armors/SAM missile batteries/jet figthers/bombers. I researched Space Flight, due in 6 turns at 100%. I raised the lux. slider to 10% and used some entertainers in Lyons. Bombardment of a Sumerian Mech. Infantry inside their borders triggered MPPs with the Russians and the Babylonians. Grr... I shouldn't have done that... or I shouldn't have sold them tech... I didn't realize that would happen (I don't warmonger usually and I don't usually end up with defensive wars like this either). So, I took lux. to 20% and and accepted Space Flight would take 7 turns.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

In 1455, I finally cleared out the Sumerians stacks from my land for a turn. They came back the next turn (I hadn't tried to make peace yet). I spawned a leader that turn, created a modern armor army and won 4 battles with it. Paris started on the Heroic Epic, while Tours started on the Military Academy. I made peace with Sumeria in 1460 and put the science slider back up to 100%. Space Flight now read 4 turns, 1 turn less than before... so the Sumerian war seemed to have costed me nothing research wise.

 

[Spoonwood]

I did add a little on here.

Spoiler :

1 turn before the Heroic Epic completed, in 1470, I swapped Paris to Battlefield Medicine as a pre-build on The Apollo Program. I had Lyons go for The Heroic Epic. Also, on that inter-turn between 1470 and 1475, some more MAs formed against me, including one with England against me. In 1480 The Internet came online and I learned Space Flight. Paris swapped to the Apollo Program... due in 4. I researched Satellites at 90%, due in 5 turns. In 1480 I made peace with Carthage. The next turn India got bribed into the dogpile against me. In 1485 The Military Academy finished... I consider buying some armies, but seeing only English cavalry and knights I decided against it. In 1485, I bombarded some English units in Persian cultural borders. I used a bomber for one of the bombardments and it killed a knight... I thought it might go for the veteran medieval infantry instead or just get two hitpoints on the knight, but it got all three. I guess I lost the variant

On the next inter-turn The Inca joined the dogpile via The English. In 1490 I made peace with Hammurabi and Cathy. I set Grenoble back to producing workers as I had lost quite a few slaves by now. In 1495 The Apollo Program completed... I zoomed to Paris switched some metros arouns, completed The Heroic Epic that turn as well as a spaceship part, and made it so that 5 other spaceship parts would finish in 8 more turns. Actually, in 7, since in 1495 I got a leader and used Richileu to hurry a spaceship part. Scratch that... I got another leader and used him to rush another spaceship part.

I got another leader in 1500. I finished clearing out England and made peace with them. In the next inter-turn India dragged Sumeria back against me. Sumeria destroyed some modern armors, so I had some war-weariness. I raised lux. to 30%, and decided to forget my reputation. I'd sign MAs with everyone I could against Sumeria. I also cash-rushed armies and decided to use any more leaders for armies. I learned Satellites and started on The Superconductor, due in a lousy 7 turns.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

In 1520 I swear I had everyone, but the Sumerians at peace with me. Then, I decided to make a deal with the devil (below). On that same turn I noticed three tribes now at war with me. Did I hit a bug... or should this have happened since I violated my military alliances? The upshot came as that my lux slider dropped to 0, sci to 100%, and I would get The Superconductor in a turn less.

In 1535 I learned The Superconductor, switched some things around for more spaceship parts. I then researched Nuclear Power at 100%, due in 5 turns. In 1555 Zululand drags Persia into a war against us. In 1555 I spawn another leader. I build another modern armor army. 1560 I learn Nuclear Power. I research The Laser at 100%, due in 5 turns at a loss now. I make peace with The Iroquois and The Zulu. I spawn another leader. In 1570/1575 The Zulu exterminated The Aztecs. In 1580 Tours cures cancer. Tours starts an ICBM as the last pre-build. In 1585 I learn The Laser and complete the SS Party Lounge. I research Robotics at 100%, due in 6 turns. In 1590 I make peace with Persia. I also swap the Superconductor for Recylcing with Carthage. I have a Laser lead on The Russians... the closest tribe in tech. In 1600 Longevity completes. During the last couple turns I finally got bored with the inter-turn time and picked up the strategy guide... the Master of Orion strategy guide. Unsurprisingly, Germany had a score lead on me before I launched. In 1615 Robotics completed, Tours swapped from an ICBM to the last spaceship part, and I launched. Final Firaxis score of 5263. Any more details you'd like to know?

 

[Spoonwood]

DWetzel et alia,

If/when you finish this game... or sooner if you'd like, I feel all up for doing a similar sort of thing. You pick the start, conditions, starting tribe, or I pick it if you'd prefer that... or we can negoitiate on that... whatever works for me. We'll both play the same game (there does exist a trick to set the leader at random, but we both have the same map... I think... but I don't know it) from whatever point you choose... of course probably the beginning. We'll both play our own games, of course, since you know how I respond to succession games. I'd prefer for us to post our notes using the spoiler format... that way I can write as I play and not have to do so by hand. I'll try whatever variant with whatever victory condition in mind/enabled/allowed. I have to admit... even more so after winning an OCC diplomatic monarch game and an OCC spaceship monarch game, a certain penchant for OCC games. We can play for score, finish date, or none of the above. If you find anyone else who wants to join us and play their own version, I'd say welcome them in and if any lurker wants to join us/me if DWetzel doesn't want to do so... SPEAK UP!

 

[DWetzel]

I may be up for that at some point. Been distracted by all manner of shiny objects the last week or so, but I may try to finish this off this weekend.

 

[Bucephalus]

@Doug: Have you looked at the GOTM forum? That's precisely the format used there.

 

[Spoonwood]

@DWetzel,

ooooooohhh... shiny objects.

@Bucephalus,

I have looked at the GOTM format... but that's not *precisely* the format there. It's close, sure. I've never seen a (civ III) GOTM where everyone gets assigned a variant or with a victory condition in mind. The RBCIV threads come closer to what I have in mind (some of their games didn't have a variant or VC in mind, but most did). We won't have a deadline for submissions or anything like that. You also can't post information using the spoiler button from the get-go, you have to wait for the spoiler threads. I like to type my notes as I play. You also can't fairly read the spoiler threads until you've played, with what I suggest I don't mind if someone else reads my spoilers before he/she finishes. I started using e-mail for writing up my report for this month's COTM game... it sounded better than using Word. I think you might find my write-up on that interesting if you read it.

 

[DWetzel]

Well, got through 1405 last night (if I remember right): Miniaturization halfway done, having gotten all four first-tier techs via a gift-up (lucky, that!). Had a brief skirmish with our favorite Gilgamesh--but managed to avoid the MPP problem you had. I allied in the Inca against him, which triggered, essentially, a world war, which I am no longer involved in (having made peace with Gilgy at the first opportunity--sorry Inca).

 

[DWetzel]

And we have a winner!

It's not me. But it's close! See attached save. (Game has crashed on me three times on this IBT for some reason... but you get the picture.) I didn't bother with the lux slider, which I'm sure would have helped my score juuuuuuust a wee bit. Especially since I'm doing rather well financially. (/understatement).

I lost some time in the industrial age, made it up with good luck at the dawn of the modern age, and then got nosed out at the wire. Perhaps I should have spent some of that gold on some research labs as you did.

Notes are pretty much non-existent, as after the end of the brief Sumeria war there really wasn't a lot to do. Interesting to see how the different wars turned out in your game as opposed to mine though--my allying in the Inca for that initial war did set off WW3 in a big way!

 

[DWetzel]

And now an informal response to your other inquiry.

I've been considering the idea of trying an always war game. Which I know has about as much appeal to you as... well... not much appeal, anyway. While I'm not an especially warmongering type, I think that I could stand to learn more about it, and what better way than to totally immerse in it?

However, what I thought might be exceedingly interesting would be to see the exact same start played essentially as an always peace game (possibly with modifications to our rules here), and the other as an always war game. The contrast would be very very interesting, in my opinion.

Obviously, we'd need to work out details (starting civ, level--I'd like to go no higher than Monarch for this--and land mass), but I'm confident we can do that.

 

[Spoonwood]

Your comment made me think you had lost the game. I guess you meant that I launched one turn before you??? From what I can tell always war games don't really allow you to trade (except the first turn you meet a tribe) and they don't give you time to develop all that much infrastructure or economy. Anyways, I saw we go Byzantines on a tiny (meaning the smallest possible map if I got that wrong) archipelago map, with raging barbies. We may as well have as many of them around, right? Dromons make a cool graphic, and if we don't have a neighbor, we'll have a little time to get up and running.

 

[DWetzel]

Yeah, you beat me by a turn. The game was never in any real danger, needless to say. Sumeria and I had a fun set of skirmishes over some workers near Dijon (they changed hands six times I think) but other than that they didn't make much of a dent--pillaging a few tiles was the extent of the disaster. Giving them (and, via MPP, Persia) something else to do was pretty critical, I think.

As for the new game... yes, I was thinking first turn trades allowed, then DOWs. And I'd play it for space. I'm curious to see how the trade benefits (especially in the early and middle game) compare to the ability to continue to expand and eventually build up science farms.

Given this, can you live with something resembling a "standard" map? 70% water continents, standard size, middle settings on the weather conditions (though I can live with changes on this), and some middle setting for barbarians?

I can survive the Byzantines if you insist on that, but I'd likely prefer someone that would have a useful warmongering UU. The Ottomans came to mind as someone with a good (albeit late) UU, and useful traits for a builder as well.